Jaqen H'ghar: The Symmetry of Red and White, The Golden Tooth, Death in Harrenhal

[bloocanary]

The old gaoler tells Jaime he thought the 3 were too bad to be of any use even for the watch.He blithers on about the differences between turnkeys and the various ranks of gaolers, what their duties are , etc ,etc. He makes such a big deal over dotting-the-I details in that whole conversation....would the old fuddy duddy have turned the prisoners over anyway ,with an out of date signature ? Seems unlikely.

WAIT A SECOND. i just caught this. Are you talking about Rugen? Rugen who GRRM confirmed to be an alias of Varys?

It suddenly all makes a lot of sense. Varys is working with the Faceless Men (or vice versa). The whole Syrio/Jaqen exchange in the black cells didn't go unnoticed by the gaoler, because the gaoler was Varys and it was exactly as he planned. All the ways in which he set Jon Arryn and Ned up, purportedly to to send the realm into chaos, had an added effect of bringing Arya Stark down from Winterfell, separating her from her father and sending her on her path to becoming one of the Faceless Men. The Faceless Men and Varys need a Stark on their side for some reason, possibly as leverage against the North if it becomes Stark VS Targ, or possibly due to some sort of power they know the Stark family has that will aid them during the impending winter/war.

At any rate, Syrio and Jaqen are likely the same person and their entire mission was to gain Arya's trust, train her, test her and send her on her way to Braavos to join the order. This is why Jaqen and the Kindly Man know who Arya's real identity is before she tells them, they've been seeking her from the start.

Other things that point to Varys being an accomplice: by setting up Jon Arryn's murder, this ensures that Ned will be coming to court with his daughters. It's possible Bran was the intended target, but after his fall, this becomes an impossibility. Syrio is already in place to train Bran, so he trains Arya instead. To separate her from her father and therefore free her up to join the order, Ned is set up in the same way that Jon was set up. Arya flees the castle during the fight with Syrio and Meryn (conveniently through the passages she's discovered while chasing cats for Syrio). Except Meryn's not actually Meryn, he's Varys or another Faceless Man in a glamour; or perhaps he's under orders not to kill Syrio, or Varys interferes with the fight somehow. The entire purpose of this battle is to frighten Arya into fleeing the castle. Syrio becomes Jaqen and joins Rorge and Biter in the black cells under Rugen/Varys's watch.

Yoren shows up for Ned's execution at the direction of Varys as well, but unbeknownst to him he's actually there for Arya. Joffrey condemns Ned and his executioners do this before anyone can react and Varys later feigns sorrow and surprise over this, but this was all under his influence. He put it into Joffery's head that he needed to make a bold, kingly decision. This effectively gives Arya no choice but to leave with the Night's Watch, where she's tested and further trained by Jaqen H'ghar, who later gives her the means to get to Braavos.

[brut]

Syrio does not display preternatural strength, as Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt appeared to. The appearance of unnatural stength and endurance in glamoured Mance stems from the fundamental disparity in the two men’s frames and builds; per the Wiki, Mance “is a big man, long limbed and lean”, whereas Rattleshirt “is a small man”. That alone does much to explain why Mance fought much, much better than Rattleshirt should have been able to, and the fact that Mance was indeed known as a great fighter finishes off the explanation. There is no magical strength here.

Syrio in fighting off the guards by quickly crippling them displays no special powers that cannot be explained by knowing that Syrio is who he is: the First Sword of Bravos. He is a master at fencing and unarmoured combat, and clearly also of unarmed combat as well. He uses everything and anything at his improvised disposal, and he delivers each stroke with surgical precision, knowing just where to strike and how. He is quick as only a lifetime master in these things could be. Think of the great masters of martial arts; they had no trouble defending themselves against larger opponents of lesser skill, and there are ways of using an opponent’s greater mass against them.

No special magical intervention is needed to explain Syrio’s martial prowess, and of Mance-as-Rattleshirt, it suffices that he was fighting truly as himself, the fell and formidable King Beyond the Wall, not as little Rattleshirt whom he was glamoured up to resemble.

I think you may be misreading what I said. Or maybe I did not state it clearly enough. I was not implying that Mance has unnatural strength when glamoured into Rattleshirt. I agree that seemingly unexplained strength of Rattleshirt in that duel with Jon comes from Mance being behind the glamour. He is simply strong and more skilled than the perceived opponent. No magic whatsoever. What I was trying to say is that according to the same analogy, there may be a FM who is stronger, bigger, more powerful glamoured into Syrio's appearance. And similar to Mance, exhibits unexplained skills while fighting his opponents.

If you believe one is not required to have certain level of strength to perform Syrio's gambit, go try shattering someone's knee with a dagger-sized wooden stick. No, that's wrong, don't do that. Go try shattering any similarly strong - preferably inanimate - material with the stick.

[brut]

WAIT A SECOND. i just caught this. Are you talking about Rugen? Rugen who GRRM confirmed to be an alias of Varys?

It suddenly all makes a lot of sense. Varys is working with the Faceless Men (or vice versa). The whole Syrio/Jaqen exchange in the black cells didn't go unnoticed by the gaoler, because the gaoler was Varys and it was exactly as he planned. All the ways in which he set Jon Arryn and Ned up, purportedly to to send the realm into chaos, had an added effect of bringing Arya Stark down from Winterfell, separating her from her father and sending her on her path to becoming one of the Faceless Men. The Faceless Men and Varys need a Stark on their side for some reason, possibly as leverage against the North if it becomes Stark VS Targ, or possibly due to some sort of power they know the Stark family has that will aid them during the impending winter/war.

At any rate, Syrio and Jaqen are likely the same person and their entire mission was to gain Arya's trust, train her, test her and send her on her way to Braavos to join the order. This is why Jaqen and the Kindly Man know who Arya's real identity is before she tells them, they've been seeking her from the start.

Other things that point to Varys being an accomplice: by setting up Jon Arryn's murder, this ensures that Ned will be coming to court with his daughters. It's possible Bran was the intended target, but after his fall, this becomes an impossibility. Syrio is already in place to train Bran, so he trains Arya instead. To separate her from her father and therefore free her up to join the order, Ned is set up in the same way that Jon was set up. Arya flees the castle during the fight with Syrio and Meryn (conveniently through the passages she's discovered while chasing cats for Syrio). Except Meryn's not actually Meryn, he's Varys or another Faceless Man in a glamour; or perhaps he's under orders not to kill Syrio, or Varys interferes with the fight somehow. The entire purpose of this battle is to frighten Arya into fleeing the castle. Syrio becomes Jaqen and joins Rorge and Biter in the black cells under Rugen/Varys's watch.

Yoren shows up for Ned's execution at the direction of Varys as well, but unbeknownst to him he's actually there for Arya. Joffrey condemns Ned and his executioners do this before anyone can react and Varys later feigns sorrow and surprise over this, but this was all under his influence. He put it into Joffery's head that he needed to make a bold, kingly decision. This effectively gives Arya no choice but to leave with the Night's Watch, where she's tested and further trained by Jaqen H'ghar, who later gives her the means to get to Braavos.

It's not Rugen who talks about prisoners. It's Overseer Gaoler / Senior Gaoler (I forgot his exact rank). And Varys doesn't seem to be working for the FM. Neither is he one, as far as we can see from the narrative. Otherwise, it's certainly pleasant to read fresh ideas like this.

[Bran Vras]

I am not against the notion that the Faceless Men can dispatch the same face to several of their agents.

Before turning to that I'd like to continue exploring the idea of the actual identity of Daario, Jaqen and the Alchemist. I'll be perfectly happy if my suggestion is destroyed by a good argument.

(The argument that Faceless men only kill on purpose doesn't seem to hold with Jaqen, since guards were killed randomly as part of Arya's third wish.)

1) Here is perhaps a significant observation. When the Alchemist is first mentioned in Oldtown, it's precisely the moment when the rumours of Dragons in Meereen reach that city. In other words, if Daario left Meereen on a ship for Oldtown, as I am considering he did, the rumours would precisely have travelled with him.

2) The idea that Daario came to Oldtown to steal a book about dragons might make good narrative sense. The goal of the Alchemist might be hinted at by the insistence on the dragon coin with which the Alchemist bribes Pate. There is this line of Pate

“Is it some book you want?” Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world.

which echoes a thought of Tyrion (ADwD)

And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

The notion that the goal of the Alchemist is to get hold of that book comes regularly on these forums. (It could be a red herring. And a blood-soaked tome is not the same thing as a scroll...) Who knows better than people around Dany that the queen lacks knowledge to control her dragons? At this point of the story, rumours of the return of dragons have barely reached Westeros. The only people who could be in Westeros searching for information on dragons would be people close to Dany.

Moreover, if the book has been stolen in the Citadel, it's likely that it will be brought to a place where dragons are, that is Meereen.

3) There is another hint given by Arianne in AFfC. She considers the options Quentyn had to go to Meereen.

A clever man would have left from Oldtown, even if it meant a longer voyage. In Oldtown he might have gone unrecognized.

Is this apparently insignificant detail a clue that somebody left Oldtown for Meereen?

[bemused]

Yikes ! I can hardly keep up..

brut.. I doubt anyone would be trying to account for missing volunteers after the battle. Yoren was dead..I don't think Lorch would be looking for paperwork and trying to match corpses to names.

The gaoler is Chief Undergaoler Rennifer Longwaters who claims a distant dab of Targ. blood ( Jaime has his doubts ), and is a stickler for figures. He keeps the count and sends in reports ; "certain" ones to the Master of Coin, "others" to the Master of Whisperers , all to the Chief Gaoler and the King's Justice ( Illyn Payne )..So any of them might know why Jaqen was in the cells ,but Payne would know for sure, if he bothered to read reports. Of course , he can't speak..:) Here's what Longwaters says about the 3 to Jaime .."Rugen was here when need be, my lord.That must be said. The black cells are little used . Before your lordship's little brother was sent down , we had Maester Pycelle for a time, and before him , Lord Stark the traitor. There were three others , common men , but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three , but the papers were in proper order. I made a note of that in a report as well , you may be certain of it. " .. He'd held his position for 12 years at that time. That's 3 "common" criminals in 12 yrs. ..only the very worst. The rest went to the city jail.

( Just a tiny OT note.. He put Rugen on report for not being on the job regularly. If that report went to Varys, it must have given him a giggle .)

bloocanary..I don't think R & B were scared of J in the cart , though maybe they weren't happy with him . It seems to me whatever he said , they just carried on being horrible.They couldn't do much anyway , all being in chains. There's another thing to consider , too...they might have known that was Jaqen's modus operandi and hoped to benefit from his success ( which I guess they did )... If Jaqen was truly just a bad criminal ( until the fire ) they may have known something about him, having been at least locked up with him, if not thrown in the cells as part of the same arrest. The thought of him being the sort who could speak well , seem sympathetic ,gain someone's trust , and then.. ___!! ( Fill in the blank ) is kind of scary. He already got Arya to give him a drink, and speak with him when she'd been warned not to... Along the way, might he have talked her into some other favour ? ( if he was Bad Jaqen..)

I think Varys unlikely to be allied with the FM.. he's for Chaos in Westeros , Braavos and The Iron Bank are for order.. he's maybe for dragons , they're aprehensive. They're against slavery, with Varys and Illyrio..that's not clear..it would be a very uneasy alliance.

Here's a more in depth look at the timing during the fire..I cut and pasted from what I said on another thread because my fingers are sore :)

When we first meet the the three prisoners in the cage, we're told they're manacled hand and foot and would stay that way all the way to the wall. Not much freedom of movement. But worse , when we get to the chapter with the fire , we read.." Then she saw the wagon and the three men manacled to it's bed. " Even less freedom of movement ,and more difficult to escape.. So just one person chopping until the bottom fell out of the cart wouldn't necessarily do it. There could still be more chopping to do.

When arya and Gendry approach the tunnel.."The fire was spreading fast ..... faster than she would have believed. "

As she goes back for the Axe, "The roof was gone up too, and things were falling down , pieces of flaming wood and bits of straw and hay. " ..Biter is already hysterical , screaming and trying to rip his chains free from the floor.. When she comes back , the smoke is so thick she can't see the wagon ,but finds it by crawling toward Biter's screams. .."The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaquen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe let alone talk."... Jaqen saw her, not she saw Jaqen. I think this implies it was at least as difficult for Jaqen to breathe as for Arya , and it refers completely to Jaqen . He couldn't get down to her level escape the worst of the smoke, and she, herself, is really struggling with it.

So. Arya sees Rorge raise the axe, and hears him chopping as she runs the few feet to the tunnel. She hears the bottom of the cart crash out just before /as she rolls into the tunnel headfirst ...." Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound , like the roar of some monstrous beast,and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom , she could not say."

Considering Arya : The tunnel was narrow, but high enough that she could crawl, not just worm forward on her belly.. This is reinforced by the fact that she moved Needle out of the way ,which implies leg movement. It doesn't take long to crawl 12 ft , fueled by adrenalin. 15-20 sec., max ? The same time or less to run to the tunnel and dive in ? I don't feel at all confident that all 3 men could have got out in that time, and considering it was almost certain to be every man for himself, I think Jaqen would have been last. Once inside the tunnel, she no longer hears the screams of men..only horses. When Arya cries, goodness knows she has enough to cry for, but it's not impossible that , in part , she might have believed Jaqen must be dead and not known how to feel. Her feelings about him have always been confusing . He has the power to attract , but she knows he's a bad'un. He sounds a bit like Syrio, inviting confidence.. but is obviously considered to be like R & B...It's clearly because of him that she decides to go back for the axe . She may shed a tear for him , but her distrust comes back to the fore when she sees him ride into Harrenhal with Lorch's men.

Considering Jaqen : If the real Jaqen was put in the black cells , he wouldn't have been allowed any implement that could pick a lock, a coin , nada.. If The A replaced him in the black cells he could, of course, have something of that nature... We don't know if the 3 guys were chained up separately or together in the cells, so we don't actually know if The A could have taken on his identity in the cells. That's a maybe... When Jaqen was imprisoned, there was no guarantee he'd be given to the Watch , or when..Bad plan , if you have a time schedule. He wasn't anywhere near when Arya revealed herself to Gendry. Yes ,he might have heard her scream , Winterfell !, but there was a lot going on and the fires might have reached the barn already.plenty of shouting and distractions. If he heard her, would he have been able to guess her identity ? Bad Jaqen surely wouldn't , and The A may not have known much about Ned's family , whether he even had a second daughter ... During the fire , I think he would have begun to pick the locks, if he could. ;) There was no guarantee Arya would find the axe , or that she would make it back, if she did. We know she almost didn't.

Entering Harrenhall : We don't know whether or not Rorge suffered serious burns. He's fully clothed and wears a half helm. Biter has lots of burns,still only half healed, but he leaves a lot of his body exposed. Rorge would have got out first, I think .If Jaqen got out at all , it couldn't have been any sooner than Biter... when Biter's screams stopped,( Arya ceased to hear them ) he was either free already , or busy freeing himself. Even if Jaqen got out at the same time ( I can't see how. ) , he came through an inferno without so much as singed hair ? Highly unlikely. .

Bran Vras..I can't go on , much , tonight.. but I don't think it's certain that The A was sent to Oldtown . specifically to get info on Dragons..I'm sure he will ,and it could make a big difference ,but we don't know if that was the purpose, yet. The news and rumours of the dragons will have been spreading since Dany reached Qarth.

If Jaqen has been in Westeros for some time in the cells ,etc. , that would mean he'd have to go all the way north to Braavos first ,to find out ,be briefed etc., then all the way to Meereen, with all the attendant complications of his "cover " then back to Oldtown, etc,. True, if he was the FM who killed Balon ( if one did ) , he could have known, but then what was he doing so far out of his way as to run into Arya ? Why become Jaqen at all ?..if he'd just been on Pyke with access to ships ? Until George tells us a lot more , this doesn't hang together too well for me...not if we're talking about the same FM.

We know Marwyn leaves Oldtown bound for Meereen , but "Pate" stays behind..

[CrypticWeirwood]

The gaoler is Chief Undergaoler Rennifer Longwaters who claims a distant dab of Targ. blood ( Jaime has his doubts ), and is a stickler for figures. He keeps the count and sends in reports ; "certain" ones to the Master of Coin, "others" to the Master of Whisperers , all to the Chief Gaoler and the King's Justice ( Illyn Payne )..So any of them might know why Jaqen was in the cells ,but Payne would know for sure, if he bothered to read reports. Of course , he can't speak...

Oh my! You’ve just reminded us that Ser Ilyn is necessarily literate. What in the world was Jaime thinking confiding his twincest to a mute who can read and write?

[Frey Pie]

Oh my! You’ve just reminded us that Ser Ilyn is necessarily literate. What in the world was Jaime thinking confiding his twincest to a mute who can read and write?

I doubt he cares. Ser Ilyn doesnt seem like the type to give a hoot about anything other then keeping his sword sharp

[jarl the climber]

Oh my! You’ve just reminded us that Ser Ilyn is necessarily literate. What in the world was Jaime thinking confiding his twincest to a mute who can read and write?

I might be wrong but I thought that Jamie mentioned that he was not literate.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Yes Rennifer Longwaters does say he sends reports to Ser Ilyn among others but in AFFC this is what Jaime thinks...

The Justice was a headsman, but by tradition he also had charge of the dungeons and the men who kept them. And for that task, Ser Ilyn Payne was singularly ill suited. As he could neither read, nor write, nor speak, Ser Ilyn had left the running of the dungeons to his underlings, such as they were.

So what Jaime thinks is key here but it is intriging to think that Ser Ilyn might be able to read and doesn't want anyone to know. I think he likes to be left alone.

One thing about Rennifer Longwaters boast about keeping records of all things involving the dungens and counts being exact... he never marked Tyrion off the list of prisoners...

"I am the chief undergaoler, my lord. I am above the undergaolers. I am charged with keeping the counts. If my lord would like to look over my books, he will see that all the figures are exact." Longwaters had consulted the great leather-bound book spread out before him. "At present, we have four prisoners on the first level and one on the second, in addition to your lordship’s brother." The old man frowned. "Who is fled, to be sure. ’Tis true. I will strike him out." He took up a quill and began to sharpen it.

Six prisoners, Jaime thought sourly, while we pay wages for twenty turnkeys, six undergaolers, a chief undergaoler, a gaoler, and a King’s Justice.

[bemused]

Yup . 3 prisoners of the more political , or noble variety, including Tyrion, maybe only because he was a noble.( I was leaving the Political 3 out, since we know none of them were Jaqen. ) .. and then, the 3 who were common , and supposedly were in there for purely criminal reasons , but for crimes more heinous than the norm , and kept at a lower level of the cells. ( I forget if that's mentioned to Ned or Tyrion )...and of course , suppositions aren't always well founded... ;)

We might never find out how or why Jaqen was down there.. I can easily imagine why some reports would be sent to the master of coin and others to the master of whisperers .. e.g. depending on whether money could be retrieved or seized , or if a plot or some kind of subversive activity was mentioned.. Ser Ilyn is a problem , if he couldn't or didn't bother to read reports ... But I can't think who is the chief gaoler, who would also receive all reports ... Do we know ?

Tyrion's escape was the only discrepancy ..an exit that didn't match the list of arrests.

[Dimadick]

It's not Rugen who talks about prisoners. It's Overseer Gaoler / Senior Gaoler (I forgot his exact rank).

Rennifer Longwaters, Chief Undergaoler. He is a Targaryen descendant and a distant cousin to Daenerys,Aegon VI, Robert I, Stannis, etc

[bloocanary]

It's not Rugen who talks about prisoners. It's Overseer Gaoler / Senior Gaoler (I forgot his exact rank). And Varys doesn't seem to be working for the FM. Neither is he one, as far as we can see from the narrative. Otherwise, it's certainly pleasant to read fresh ideas like this.

Dammit. Haha, I wondered why no one else had stumbled upon that. I wasn't able to find the convo with Jaime and the overseer, so I had to go from memory. Would it be possible that Varys was still the one to lead the FM that becomes Jaqen to the cells? If he were Syrio, then he could always transform while in the company of Varys.

Even if Varys and the FM aren't working together, is it possible that Varys hired one? I'm still tempted to keep the Varys/FM connection open as Varys has the ability to disguise himself and because of his past in the free cities.

bloocanary..I don't think R & B were scared of J in the cart , though maybe they weren't happy with him . It seems to me whatever he said , they just carried on being horrible.They couldn't do much anyway , all being in chains. There's another thing to consider , too...they might have known that was Jaqen's modus operandi and hoped to benefit from his success ( which I guess they did )... If Jaqen was truly just a bad criminal ( until the fire ) they may have known something about him, having been at least locked up with him, if not thrown in the cells as part of the same arrest. The thought of him being the sort who could speak well , seem sympathetic ,gain someone's trust , and then.. ___!! ( Fill in the blank ) is kind of scary. He already got Arya to give him a drink, and speak with him when she'd been warned not to... Along the way, might he have talked her into some other favour ? ( if he was Bad Jaqen..)

I think Varys unlikely to be allied with the FM.. he's for Chaos in Westeros , Braavos and The Iron Bank are for order.. he's maybe for dragons , they're aprehensive. They're against slavery, with Varys and Illyrio..that's not clear..it would be a very uneasy alliance.

You've got some good points! And I definitely watched the scene in the show extra-closely because of everything you said. The way it was handled (Rorge taking the axe) definitely still leaves your theory on the table. However, I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm still of the opinion that Jaqen is a FM from the beginning, based on his initial dialogue with Arya. But then, there's no real way to tell given what little info we both have!

[Black Crow]

Dammit. Haha, I wondered why no one else had stumbled upon that. I wasn't able to find the convo with Jaime and the overseer, so I had to go from memory. Would it be possible that Varys was still the one to lead the FM that becomes Jaqen to the cells? If he were Syrio, then he could always transform while in the company of Varys.

An important and frequently overlooked point. Longwaters is the governor of the prison. Someone like Eddard Stark might justify his personal oversight, but common men certainly don't. Just so long as the paperwork is in order upstairs the actual dirty work of taking "common men" down to the black cells would invariably be delegated to Rugen/Varys.

Mind you given the summary nature of justice in these here parts it makes you wonder what "common men" were doing in the black cells in the first place given the likes of Rorge and Biter were obvious candidates for a long rope and a short drop.

[bemused]

.

Mind you given the summary nature of justice in these here parts it makes you wonder what "common men" were doing in the black cells in the first place given the likes of Rorge and Biter were obvious candidates for a long rope and a short drop.

I wonder if we'll ever know.. common men can still be involved in crimes against the crown or prominent members of society . You would think that they would have been summarily hung or some other nasty punishment..unless it was hoped they could point a finger elsewhere. One question leads to another..On whose authority had they been arrested ? Robert's ? Jon Arryn's ? Had they been tried yet, or were they just mouldering ?

There's a couple of points I meant to chime in on earlier..In Bran Vras' post #55 , there's the question about why should the fire be considered a sacrifice..no one made the offering , no prayers were said, etc.. Obviously, it wasn't a sacrifice , The Red God was snatching those lives himself , and therefore might feel robbed.

The question is also raised as to whether Jaqen's red and white hair might be proof of some compatibility between the temple of R'hllor and the temple of the Moonsingers ... and if they might even have some shared clergy or servants. I really think we shouldn't read too much into his hair colour. From the first book we're aware that flamboyant dye jobs are prevalent in more than one of the free cities. It's a fashion that has spread. As well as that , all religions are tolerated, allowed to flourish in Braavos , but I can't think the 2 religions can be comfortable associates in any way... One considers the night to be dark and full of terrors, the other must surely welcome the night and the appearance of the moon... One, (at least in Essos) fills the ranks of it's clergy with slaves ( but surely not in Braavos ). The other helped a slave population to flee Valyria and decided the location of the colony. They may be neighbours, but I can't believe they are on very cordial terms , particularly since some priests of R'Hllor are so eager to label other gods "False Gods" . ..This may actually be prevented by law in Braavos, and not just by custom.

( I haven't had a chance to really scrutinize Daario yet.. but I do think he's got his own motives )

brut.. you raised the point earlier That Jaqen seems to push Arya to name Joffrey and what his motive could be.. This is yet another thing that "pushes' me toward a Syrio ID ;) ( though GRRM could be leading me down the garden path ).

Just previous to Weese's killing, Arya realizes she's been wasting her opportunities by naming small fish.Of the three possible ID's for Jaqen , FM Syrio ? Jaqen, FM from KL Jaqen, and Random FM Jaqen , Syrio alone would know about her witnessing Ned's execution scene.. Any FM would probably know she was perhaps not choosing wisely , but Syrio alone would be able to guess those who had offended her most grievously, and care enough to make a suggestion to help her, before she wasted all three.

Random FM is highly unlikely to not only figure her ID, but to know the exact circumstances of her being where she was.

KL Jaqen couldn't have witnessed the scene on Baelor's steps , even if he could somehow figure out her ID.

[brut]

Poisons are the specialty of the FM, and it is clear that Joff was poisoned. Although, Littlefinger claims certain involvement in the act, I would mistrust any of his claims. Substantially, there is little motivation for LF to square off Joff. And considering the FM arc through the story, as well as the encounter between Arya and Jaqen, I would believe his hand is traceable in Joff's murder.

Also, if you recall that Arya prays for the death of her adversaries to the gods, it seems her prayers are answered by the Many-Faced God in particular. While the price for killing Chyswick and Wees and helping Arya is her contribution to survival of Jaqen, the price that she pays for the Joff's Gift is herself joining the FM, similar to how Waif was left to join the FM as price for the Gift given to her step mother.

At least for me, there is little doubt as to why Jaqen tells her about Braavos, and that she has to learn alot, and why he transformed in front of her...

[bemused]

But what about the clear motives for the Martells and the Queen of Thorns ? Sansa did have a "jewel" missing from her hairnet and Lady Olenna did fiddle with it.

Everybody had to be worried about Joff growing into his power as King. He was a loose cannon as well as a sadist. He was difficult to control and only likely to get more difficult as he matured...OTOH , LF is sure he knows exactly how to manipulate Cersei. His only complaint is that she exceeds expectations by going off the rails sooner than he predicted... LF went to a lot of trouble and expense to set up Tyrion.. for what , if not to take the fall for Joff's death ? Actually , Tyrion was the one he knew he couldn't manipulate, so the whole exercise was designed to remove Tyrion , as much as Joff ... and gain control of Sansa.

The poison had the symptoms they expected and was administered precisely when he was eating .. The QoT would want it to appear he choked on his food..but if Cersei had accepted that at first, I'm sure LF would have been whispering in her ear , and leading her to suspect Tyrion anyway.

I don't know , I just can't feel that George would have Jaqen racing back and forth across the contintent that way... though It's not outside the realm of possibility.

I'm not convinced about the price to Arya either. I think the FM are very conscientious about stating the price beforehand. I don't think there are any hidden clauses , or unreadable fine print. When Jaqen gives Arya the coin , he really can't be sure she'll ever use it. He doesn't know Bolton is a traitor, and must feel he's leaving her in a relatively safe situation with her brothers allies.

[Bran Vras]

I just had a look at the questions of the presence of Jaqen and co in the Black Cells of the Red Keep. I don't see how to say much beyond a few remarks.

1) I don't think Eddard Stark gave these men to the Watch. Indeed, the Starks are friends of the Night's Watch and wouldn't offer Biter for instance, who couldn't even speak his vows. Even Rorge would only be trouble at the Wall. Moreover we read (Sansa, AGoT):

“Father asked if there were any knights in the hall who would do honor to their houses by taking the black, but no one came forward, so he gave this Yoren his pick of the king’s dungeons and sent him on his way. And later these two brothers came before him, freeriders from the Dornish Marches, and pledged their swords to the service of the king. Father accepted their oaths...”

So Ned Stark wasn't negligent. My guess is that somebody else at court ordered the release of the prisoners taking advantage of the confusion. Perhaps somebody didn't want Jaqen to fall in the hands of the Lannisters. My first guess is Varys.

2) It's certainly difficult to detect and arrest a Faceless Man. My suspicion is that only somebody with "sharp eyes" could see through the disguise of Jaqen. Again my guess is Varys, who seems to know about the mummer's trick for disguise.

3) I don't see why Amory Lorch hired Biter, Rorge and Jaqen in his company, as all Yoren's companions were ruthlessly put to the sword. Armory Lorch ordered “Storm the walls and kill them all,” before the assault on the holdfast. (There is the remote possibity that he was looking for those three instead of Arya and Gendry.)

4) It's interesting that Rugen's gold coin was found by Qyburn. Has he been tipped somehow by Jaqen?

[bloocanary]

Yes Rennifer Longwaters does say he sends reports to Ser Ilyn among others but in AFFC this is what Jaime thinks... So what Jaime thinks is key here but it is intriging to think that Ser Ilyn might be able to read and doesn't want anyone to know. I think he likes to be left alone. One thing about Rennifer Longwaters boast about keeping records of all things involving the dungens and counts being exact... he never marked Tyrion off the list of prisoners...

Aha, so given the context of this quote, it's entirely possible that Rennifer isn't nearly as organized and competent as he's letting on to Jaime. It seems like he's making a fuss over all the details to ensure he doesn't take the fall after losing Tyrion. If he does take a more lax approach when the King's uncle isn't breathing down his neck, that means that Varys would have plenty of opportunity to plant a FM among the prisoners.

Varys=Rugen has to have some other significance besides serving as a handy deus ex machina to get Tyrion out of the black cells. It's one thing to have Varys know a network of secret passages that let him in and out of the cells; it's another thing entirely for him to masquerade as an undergaoler for an extended period of time. The only thing I can come up with is to smuggle Jaqen into the cells, although for what purpose I can't be certain. I still think it all points to Arya and she (or a Stark child in general) was the target from the get-go.

If Varys has both a Stark and a Targaryen in his pocket, then that potentially puts him in a very advantageous position. I think there's possibly an "ice and fire" prophesy we haven't heard of yet that Varys is basing his motives on. Of course, given what we assume about L/R, this prophesy could just as easily be referencing Jon, but Varys doesn't know that.

[bemused]

Bran Vras..as I understand it ,

1)...the Night's watch has to ask for men (prisoners, not volunters) from whoever is in charge at any particular location..only the Lord of a given hold, or perhaps his steward in his absence, has the right to dispose of any prisoners. From the wall we see requests being directed to the ruler in KL ...at KL we see requests ( if answered ) being dealt with by the King's Hand .Ned isn't negligent, but he certainly wouldn't review every case to see if he thought they were worthy , any more than the King would. He gave them their pick . Who, or how many they took was up to the Watch. There were no political prisoners in the dungeons at the time.( He was to become the first in some time, himself.) No one else except Robert would have had the authority to give the OK.( before Ned's arrest )

We know the watch was utterly desperate ,but even without being desperate , the watch has always taken murderers , rapists, you name it. Longwaters apparently told Yoren he didn't think they were suitable and said as much in a report that at least the chief gaoler and the King's Justice would have received.( We see that Jaime hadn't much patience for Longwaters , can we try to imagine how much Yoren would have been swayed by his opinion ? ) ...Apparently,in his desperation, Yoren thought he might as well take the risk ,keep them chained 'til they got to the wall, and if it didn't work out once they were there, they'd either be executed as deserters or for insubordination. If they could adapt , that would be 3 men they didn't have before.

On checking ,it was definitely Ned who gave the order. He was in charge when Yoren made the request .Yoren tells Arya ... "Lord Eddard gave me pick o' the dungeons..." He says he has 30 men and boys , and warns that "..half o' them'd turn you over to the queen quick as spit for a pardon..." , so he took men from the other dungeons as well..No-one would have reviewed their cases to decide if they were suitable. That kind of personal attention would only apply to nobles, political prisoners, people of some position. As we see in Ned's case before Joffrey queered things.

2)..The mummers method of diguise is.. make-up, wigs, costume and acting and I'm sure Varys could see through them, since he used them himself. But what Jaquen used at harrenhall was something else .. maybe a FM version of a glamour, which may work in an entirely different way from Mel's.I'm not sure his eyes are that sharp, but we don't know... Varys could supply info that might get someone arrested, but as V or R couldn't arrest anyone himself.

3) They were Yoren's prisoners, not his companions, obviously dangerous men, able fighters. There could be a bit of "The enemy of my enemy " at play, or simply that , as Tywin is willing to use The Mountain and Lorch for his purposes ( though he knows they're nasty ) , Lorch ,in his turn, could see the use in them.

4) It's an old coin, a Targaryen coin, IIRC.. of the type often used by Olenna... probably a plant by someone else. It certainly adds to Cersei's Tyrion and Martell paranoias...I'd suspect Qyburn or LF..

bloocanary.. Rennifer is obviously not as efficient as he lets on , however, it's one thing to not write down an escape, but another to overlook an arrest, since prisoners would be brought in by guards, not Rugen or some lowly turnkey. I agree V/R could sneak someone in , but then that person wouldn't in the log to begin with.. and I suppose he could sneak a FM in to make a switch , and probably dispose of the body..but as I say, he doesn't seem exactly in tune with Braavosi interests..as far as we know yet.

Longwaters has been in his position for 12 years,. Rugen was there when he came ,very likely since before Roberts Rebellion...or at least since Robert took over. All those passages don't just let him in and out of the cells but in and out of KL itself , and were probably just as useful during Aerys" reign ( Rhaegar's plans )... They also connect to the passages where Arya observed him secretly meeting Illyrio (and probably to others where he and his little birds can eavesdrop)..and 12 yrs.+ is a long time to be preparing to smuggle Jaqen into the cells.Rugen is there when he needs to be according to Longwaters , otherwise..not.

I can't think that the FM or Varys were looking to acquire a Stark hostage or recruit, particularly a little girl , in ad vance. ned Stark had been off the radar for 15 years..just minding his own business , avoiding court rivalries. He had no loan from the IB. The Starks had shown no sign of being wargs for hundreds of years.South of the wall the ability may widely be thought not to exist. The Starks found the pups just shortly before Robert arrived in WF.

Robert had left WF a month before. Now I can see the FM being curious and putting someone in place in the meantime, to observe the new Hand ,in order to assess what his appointment might mean to them. He's the one they would have been interested in to begin with.. what kind of man had he become since RR?

[Bran Vras]

Two few more remarks about Jaqen.

1) I thought again about the dialogue between Varys and Ned Stark in the dungeons of the Red Keep.

“If there was one soul in King’s Landing who was truly desperate to keep Robert Baratheon alive, it was me.” He sighed. “For fifteen years I protected him from his enemies, but I could not protect him from his friends.

That could mean that Jaqen was an assassin sent for the king. After the death of Robert, there was no need to keep the Faceless Man in the dungeons.

2) Here is Arya in Harrenhal, just after Jaqen came to wake her in the night and offer the three deaths.

By the time Arya lit her stub of a candle, only a faint smell remained of him, a whiff of ginger and cloves lingering in the air.

Cloves are spice from Qarth, I believe. They are used by people wealthy enoughto spice wine. In any case, it'an ingredient which is not commonly available. Later in Harrenhal, Roose Bolton burns a book in a hearth after Arya has lit candles perfumed with the scent of cloves.