Moralityof Assassins, a possible rogue and an enemy of dragons

[bemused]

Victarion and Euron seem to me to be very ripe for having their plans thwarted..one way or another..

[Elaena Targaryen]

Sorry The Undead Martyr I did not realize that I personally attacked anyone's interpretation, I was only sharing my interpretation from the text like I have many times on the forum and some agree and some don't, that's ok because nobody will know until it's written. I could be completely wrong and it's no big deal or some one could convince me to change my views because I try to be open minded. I do like your thoughts so I wanted to respond to your post so you might understand my thoughts better and in turn maybe expand on yours. Like I'm interested in what has convinced you that the Faceless Men are against the Others and how the dragons factor in.

I would like to explain that I do not, at this time, see the dragons as saviours and I think the text shows them as opposite of saviours. I think it's possible that they might need saved from dragons but I know that's not widely accepted and that I could be very wrong but I still see it as possible. The fact that the Targaryens had dragons in Westeros for 100 to 150 years speaks against my thoughts but it is implied some one, maybe the maesters, had a hand in killing off the dragons so everyone may not have been dragon lovers. As for the FM I'm not too decided on their agenda / motivations but they still seem very religious to me, what that means I'm not sure.

We don't "jest" of nukes, either; there was a Fox News correspondent who suggested using a nuke to vaporize the BP oil spill, which is analogous to Jon's joke.

It doesn't mean that the Braavosi are unequivocally against dragons; just that they take them seriously.

The "jest" is not what I was refering to but I'll still resspond to this and then explain what I was refering too. I believe the comparison between to nukes and dragons relates to their possible destructive force in war and they can not be compared beyond that., dragons have several other destructive qualities. Dragons are wild animals and require some level of responsibility, like feeding, and the Meereenese did not seem very happy about the dragons for several reasons. What about Hazzea? I think her father would rather live near nukes than dragons. Whether or not some one jests it is not funny to have a dragon eat your little four year old daughter.

Now what I was refering too in Lord Tycho's statement... "We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of it's dragonlords." In their culture they remember what "dragonlords" are capable of and IIRC there have been other mentions ( maybe the Kindly Man or others ) that brings up the dragonlords. I believe this has nothing to do with a "jape" but may well show a cultural morality passed down. The dragons are in Essos with a conquering queen and that's all they need to know with the history they are aware of. I would love to know if the Braavosi have more information on dragons than most, given their past.

Again... where is the connection between slaves and dragons? Valyria is the sole link; and it's gone.

The Targaryens had dragons for at least a century; would that stop the Iron Bank from working with the Iron throne?

The connection between slaves and dragons is Dany has dragons and has freed slaves who blindly support her. Where does it say they know what Dany plans on doing with all of these slaves? Is she gathering forces and support? Will she cause more wars so she can conquer and force the societies to her will? Is this how the rise of Valyria started? Is history repeating itself? It does not mean things will turn out this way but I have not seen any indication what the Braavosi believe Dany is doing or what she will do. Not to mention that there are three dragons and we don't know who will control them, will it be Euron and do they know about him? But they could think of Dany as a saviour for slaves and have decided to love and worship her and her dragons.

The Targaryens having dragons in Westeros for so long does perplex me I admit and I have thought about this before. ( maybe I have not thought about it enough ) Do we know if the Iron Bank worked with the Targs at this time when they had dragons? Is it possible the FM had a hand in killing the dragons or being involved with maesters at this time? The only thing I can say is that there is a FM at the Citadel now, and now that they know about the dragons, but that can have so many meanings who can say. We don't have enough info on what the FM ( or the Braavosi ) thought about Targs and their dragons at that time for me to decide what to think, they could have been totaly ok with all of it for all I know.

First, Dany isn't a slave;

Firs,t I used the word martyr when I did not mean too. Shame on me! Second, you can put any word you want there; Saviour, Saint, Champion and so on... was that so hard? Third, I do have a medical condition ( MS ) that causes me many cognitive and motor function problems and one inparticular is that I have trouble "finding" words, so if I find a word that works I'll go with it, it's not a big deal. Fourth, Dany is not a slave and she is a queen but are you so sure Dany never was a slave or could not have been classified as a slave? I have seen many discussions on this forum about this and most posters seem to think she was and that is where her sympathy and compassion for slaves comes from. I'll stop now as to not derail this thread any more than I already have but you can search for discussions if you want.

second, dragons can be killed/stolen/poisoned/whatever, and there's a chance that the dragons might not survive the war.

Arya's also a potential rider, and as a warg, she could easily have a "second life" within a dragon or a direwolf...

Exactly we just don't know what will happen with the dragons, plus I love Arya so if dragons can be warged, and it's a good thing, then I'm all for Arya being a dragonrider. ( not sure how I feel about the "second life" thing though, I'll have to think about that )

also, my main argument is that the FM are against the Others; everything else is secondary. In other words, risking a dragon resurgence is a small price for saving the world, and Braavos is clearly taking all possible measures to mitigate/curb the risk of dragons going wild...

Speaking of which, it's entirely possible that they mean to kill the dragons and/or Dany after the Others are dealt with; hence, Jaquen is going to discover/steal a method of stealing/killing dragons in the citadel, for clean-up duty.

Having a second-life Arya is another precaution; she might very well be forced into it, i.e. by having her human body dying.

Again, they're against the Others. there are a lot of variables and risks; but then, nothing is perfect, and against the weight of the world....

I do find this interesting, and the dragons could certainly be used against the Others ( it's most likely )but smaller chance that the Others could be used against the dragons, and you explained possibilies of what can happen with the FM being against the Others. Would you expand on why you think the FM are opposed the Others and what within the text led to your interpretation? I have seen the this thought before but I would like to know more about it because it's interesting.

ETA

I believe I saw an interview with Martin where he did not start out wanting dragons ( and may not have wanted to use them? ) so the Others were more established in the story, but there are dragons in the first book too. :shrug:

Also I don't know for sure but the fantasy I know of with dragons is they are either good or bad usually from the beginning and I like that we don't know what to think just yet, but I'm not as familiar with fantasy novels as some of you ( but I still love them! ) lol, Martin's dragons are "grey" too.

[Frey Pie]

I think the conversations turned where i wanted it to begin going. Its interesting that i pretty much agree with two conflicting ideas. Dany represents freedom and slavery all at once to the Braavosi. She has it in her to be Braavos' greatest hero or their worst nightmare.

It makes sense to me that the FM would be against the Others. FM hold death sacred and by all accords the Others defy death. So it is possible that Braavos, the fm and the iron bank are all for the Wall and supporting Jon. The dragons will be needed in some way at the Wall. Wether they turn on men after is yet to be seen. As i said earlier though i do believe theres a knife against Danys lovely throat. The info the FM at the citadel will get i feel will be kept against the time when/if dragons go apeshit and Dany follows suit. Or if one of the dragons gets controlled by a slaver i.e. Euron. From the high to the low the Braavosi hate slavers and if a dragonrider becomes such a slaver then i believe they will turn on him/her

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I think the conversations turned where i wanted it to begin going. Its interesting that i pretty much agree with two conflicting ideas. Dany represents freedom and slavery all at once to the Braavosi. She has it in her to be Braavos' greatest hero or their worst nightmare.

Nicely put.

[Frey Pie]

Nicely put.

Thank you, kind lady(i assume lady by your name,otherwise apologies Ser :P )

[brut]

There are more precious things at the Citadel than a book about dragons. Think glass candles. The FM become aware of the candles burning, assume identity of Pate, get close to Mar, and voila, get access to the candles.

[Frey Pie]

There are more precious things at the Citadel than a book about dragons. Think glass candles. The FM become aware of the candles burning, assume identity of Pate, get close to Mar, and voila, get access to the candles.

Fair enough point i guess. It would make sense for the FM to look for both. Both have been mentioned in the books a few times and so one would think may have a role. Not sure what the FM could do with the candles though-seems you need some wicked power to work them

[Corm]

Aren't the glass candles just pieces of obsidian?

[Bolivar]

While I think it's plausible for the FM to hate the Others, I think their purpose in the story will be used in other areas.

Braavos is so secretive, I wonder if there is an overall connection between the characters and associations that dislike magic and dragons - The FM, the Maesters, the Iron Bank, and Varys & Illyrio's network. I wonder if the Iron Bank worked with the Targaryens before Robert or started with him, since they always talk about Robert's death. And now they're going to support his brother. I wonder if the Iron Bank has been a part to Varys schemes all along.

I think soon there will be some kind of council where they decide whether or not to support Daenerys. She has dragons, but she's also freeing slaves. Arya may be used as another vassal from Westeros to appeal to her, and to kill her if need be. But I am thinking that Arya will eventually be used to kill another Stark back in Westeros, and her cover will be her former identity, as she is now "no one."

[brut]

Aren't the glass candles just pieces of obsidian?

they are obsidian candle that do not possess any magic qualities if not lit. But, once they burn, they allow the gazer to see past/future, and communicate with persons remotely (read, westerosi mobile phones with free plans) as if they were there. Kinda the way fire wight communicates with Danny. The trick was that they were not lit for centuries on end, but now at least one of them is burning. And, coincidentally, it's the one that Marv has.

[Frey Pie]

Aren't the glass candles just pieces of obsidian?

when the glass candles burn the sorcerers could see across mountains, seas and deserts, give men visions and dreams and communicate with one another half a world apart. From the wiki. So while they are obsidian id say they would be very useful if you could use them

While I think it's plausible for the FM to hate the Others, I think their purpose in the story will be used in other areas.

Braavos is so secretive, I wonder if there is an overall connection between the characters and associations that dislike magic and dragons - The FM, the Maesters, the Iron Bank, and Varys & Illyrio's network. I wonder if the Iron Bank worked with the Targaryens before Robert or started with him, since they always talk about Robert's death. And now they're going to support his brother. I wonder if the Iron Bank has been a part to Varys schemes all along.

I think soon there will be some kind of council where they decide whether or not to support Daenerys. She has dragons, but she's also freeing slaves. Arya may be used as another vassal from Westeros to appeal to her, and to kill her if need be. But I am thinking that Arya will eventually be used to kill another Stark back in Westeros, and her cover will be her former identity, as she is now "no one."

Very nice ideas. I really like your idea of the Braavosi working with Illlyrio and Varys,or with Robert. I did make note during dance of how Tycho was so respectful when mentioning Robert.

Arya would make a great POV for this type of meeting. Shes on her way to apprentice with another FM so its a possibility that shed be present

[Gogossos]

The stories of what is going on beyond the Wall are already reaching Braavos the city. I guess it depends on who truly rules the place. The Unsullied are apparently the best at what they do but it was the slave masters at Astapor who controlled the city, and thus the economy and foreign policy. As a free city, Braavos is run differently but the most dangerous institution wouldn't be based there if they either didn't control the city or were controlled by those who run the place. Hence why I assume the FM, the Iron Bank and the Sealord are of one mind. Someone who runs these things is interested in both Dany's dragons and Jon's effort to thwart the threat from up north. They are probably not interested in Westeros' game of thrones beyond having someone on the Iron Throne who will pay down the debt and keep a close watch on the wall.

[Frey Pie]

The stories of what is going on beyond the Wall are already reaching Braavos the city. I guess it depends on who truly rules the place. The Unsullied are apparently the best at what they do but it was the slave masters at Astapor who controlled the city, and thus the economy and foreign policy. As a free city, Braavos is run differently but the most dangerous institution wouldn't be based there if they either didn't control the city or were controlled by those who run the place. Hence why I assume the FM, the Iron Bank and the Sealord are of one mind. Someone who runs these things is interested in both Dany's dragons and Jon's effort to thwart the threat from up north. They are probably not interested in Westeros' game of thrones beyond having someone on the Iron Throne who will pay down the debt and keep a close watch on the wall.

Unless of course the city works like Quarth where they have the tourmaline brothers, the thirteen and whoever else all not liking eachother and vying for power

[Corm]

they are obsidian candle that do not possess any magic qualities if not lit. But, once they burn, they allow the gazer to see past/future, and communicate with persons remotely (read, westerosi mobile phones with free plans) as if they were there. Kinda the way fire wight communicates with Danny. The trick was that they were not lit for centuries on end, but now at least one of them is burning. And, coincidentally, it's the one that Marv has.

when the glass candles burn the sorcerers could see across mountains, seas and deserts, give men visions and dreams and communicate with one another half a world apart. From the wiki. So while they are obsidian id say they would be very useful if you could use them

I know that's what they were used for. The point I was trying to make is that we haven't been told that there's anything special about their make-up. Someone suggested that Jaqen went to the Citadel to try and steal the obsidian candles but if they're simply lumps of obsidian it doesn't really make sense to go to all that effort. Obsidian hasn't been described as common but it certainly isn't rare. I doubt that he went in just to steal them if they are simply lumps of obsidian.

[bemused]

There's no statement in the text ( that I've found ) to say outright that the FM are against the Others..but logically , it seems very unlikely that they would be for them .. Their whole political/commercial existence would be threatened by the Others' overrunning Westeros , just like everyone else's . The IB may deal with people and states all over the world.. But politically, Braavos would be more naturally allied with Westeros, where slavery is not practiced... If all of Westeros went down, they'd only have the states of Essos to deal with , which could lead to their having to compromise their slave policy , if those states formed an alliance against them. In a full long winter their port could be icebound...

The FM view of Death seems at heart naturalistic.. quite compatible with that of the CoTF and the Old Gods ( All men die , and all women, too ) . But where the Others arise , a glut of death follows , but spawns creatures who are neither truly alive nor dead.. and while the FM may see Death as the one " great inevitable " and a "gift" , there's nothing to say they don't revere life. (Their fees demonstrate that life is not cheap to them.)

People may come to the House of Black and White to seek death when they personally decide they're ready for it.. but the FM are not out in society preaching suicide ,or glorifying death as an art , as in Meereen ,or making religious sacrifices,like we've seen with Mel. They have their own religious viewpoint but don't operate in the same way as normal religions do.They don't build more and more temples, or try to convert society through prosyletising....It seems more a sort of pan-religious or transcending-religious ethic , which is how they can respect all other religions.

What about Hazzea ? ..I'm thinking there's a distinct possibilty that the whole Hazzea episode was a fake , a ploy to curtail Dany's power, orchestrated by the Harpy. ( Whether the GG turns out to be the Harpy or not, she knows about Hazzea when she should not, among other suspicious signs.)

The other example of eating humans would be Barsena who was just meat to Drogon once she was dead or severely wounded.. and he's not the only animal to behave this way in the books. We actually haven't seen a dragon prey on a human just for food...yet. ( though I'm sure at least a wild one would ).

So I agree ,we really don't know enough about the dragons yet, to know how they fit into the Braavosi view..and we may not even know as much as we think we do. :)

[The Undead Martyr]

Regarding the candles- I'm of the mind that the "Quaithe" in Dany's visions is either Marwyn and/or a Faceless Man... notice how she didn't warn about a "wolf" or "titan" or even a maester... all of whom may or may not show up with Dany.

All of the "others" who were warned against would drag Dany into a "southern" conflict, and/or pose a threat to her; victarion wants to steal her, and/or her dragons, Tyrion, Quentyn, Griff etc. all want her backing in the "Game of Thrones" instead of the real fight.. as Stannis said, "I can't put the cart before the horse" i.e. save the realm (from the OTHERS) to get the crown. Braavos clearly agrees.

[Gogossos]

Regarding the candles- I'm of the mind that the "Quaithe" in Dany's visions is either Marwyn and/or a Faceless Man... notice how she didn't warn about a "wolf" or "titan" or even a maester... all of whom may or may not show up with Dany.

I had a similar thought when the discussion turned to glass candles. Perhaps it's because we are discussing Dany and the FM and Jon simultaneously that this thought is making complete sense to me. It makes sense that the FM would take a keen interest in her as soon as a Dothraki rode in Qarth claiming his khaleesi has dragons ...

[The Undead Martyr]

I had a similar thought when the discussion turned to glass candles. Perhaps it's because we are discussing Dany and the FM and Jon simultaneously that this thought is making complete sense to me. It makes sense that the FM would take a keen interest in her as soon as a Dothraki rode in Qarth claiming his khaleesi has dragons ...

If Quaithe is working with the Faceless Men (or is a faceless man, appearing to Dany as Quaithe in her dreams) then that implies that the FM are trying to "help" Dany indirectly, behind the scenes... it makes sense, aside from utter deniability (even if she starts talking and it isn't brushed off as mad ravings, Quaithe i.e. a Red Priest probably isn't someone you'd as a Faceless Man) and lets them switch sides and/or use a similar trick without repercussions.

If Marwyn is the one responsible, then it implies that he's either allied to the FM or considers them Dany's allies, inasmuch as buddha-ninjas can be friends to a foreign queen...

If he suspected that the FM and/or Braavos would get involved (and I highly doubt he wouldn't plan for it, if it were within the realm of possibility) then it's a rather large oversight not to mention them; when Littlefinger, Tyrion and Saan all know of the FM (the latter even knowing where to "hire" them!) I'd expect Marwyn to at least warn her against them unless he was convinced that they wouldn't be her enemies for the foreseeable future- such as, say, the time it would take for her and her dragons to arrive safely at the wall and dispose of the others.

a magic trained, world wise Maester has both the means and the motive to investigate the FM; as Jaquen is presumably right next door, were he hostile, the FM would make a move and someone would die. So I suspect that he's also a FM ally...

Unless of course the city works like Quarth where they have the tourmaline brothers, the thirteen and whoever else all not liking eachother and vying for power

:cool4:

[jarl the climber]

Another interesting thing is that the novice Lazy Leo is trained in the use of a Bravosi blade. He is the only other person besides Arya in Westeros who was trained with one that we have seen. Is it just a coincedence or is there some signifigance to it.

[Exitao]

The maesters don't like dragons because they are a great source of magic. Without the dragons, science/reason is preeminent. Information is power, but all the knowledge contained in the library of the citadel is nothing next to having the power to define reality.

As far as the citadel is concerned, magic is very untidy :)