Moralityof Assassins, a possible rogue and an enemy of dragons

[Corm]

It also begs the question why did the Citadel want to destroy the dragons? It seems crazy to risk so much only to ensure that sorcery has no part in the modern world. And why then do they still have a link for learning about magic?

I think the last Sam chapter in AffC is one of the most interesting in the series. Why does an institution devoted to gathering knowledge have any agenda whatsoever except for gathering knowledge?

[Gogossos]

I think the last Sam chapter in AffC is one of the most interesting in the series. Why does an institution devoted to gathering knowledge have any agenda whatsoever except for gathering knowledge?

They have a maester in every major castle, I think that's enough motivation to kill the dragons, or keep them dead. Besides, didn't Maester Luwin always discourage Bran from the reality/existence of warging and other some such? Perhaps he never got into the inner circle but also perhaps he was following the Citadel procedure.

[Corm]

They have a maester in every major castle, I think that's enough motivation to kill the dragons, or keep them dead.

Why?

Besides, didn't Maester Luwin always discourage Bran from the reality/existence of warging and other some such? Perhaps he never got into the inner circle but also perhaps he was following the Citadel procedure.

Well didn't he admit that he was one of the few people to learn about sorcery?

[The Undead Martyr]

Arya is one of very, very many connections between Dany, Braavos and Westeros. I am absolutely certain that the Faceless men are only "against" the great other, and that the Braavosi are getting involved for precisely that reason. I am also absolutely certain that they are not against Dany- that, on the contrary, Braavos will be one of her major allies. Slavery- an important foundation of the other Free Cities' economies and a great evil now- far, far outweighs any 300 year old grudge... in fact, I'd say that the Braavosi don't have any grudge against dragons or Targaryens- the Valyrians died long before the Targaryen dynasty began- but simply see dragons as WMDs; IIRC George himself compared dragons to nukes. It's far more likely that they would try to steal dragons than kill them all.. but I doubt they're going to do that. Dany's a slave freeing idealist with a strong(ish) sense of morality; she's also young, though far from inexperienced. Young idealists are easily manipulated by those who can prop themselves up on the moral high ground beside them... and the slave-free, slave founded Braavos can certainly project a good image to her.

[Gogossos]

We think alike The Undead Martyr! The moment that Braavosi banker showed up at the Wall and then proceed to offer a generous credit to the NW, with only -let's face it - Jon's word as collateral, my ears pricked up. The same Jon who sent Sam to the Citadel (where another FM agent has taken an interest). Jon had a throwaway line about how he'd like to use Dany's dragons on the Wall and it might yet come to pass.

[Winterfell is Burning]

The second one is the possible Braavosi Bank involvement with Stannis and Cersei and the Iron throne, I presume the FM has a massive say in the bank policy.

I thought it was the other way around- the bank influences the FM policy and orders assassinations.

[skins7778]

The FM are kind of weird. They're master assassins, who charge huge sums of money. They're known in Westoros, but used very, very rarely, e.g. Balon Greyjoy and Pate. They operate more in Essos, enough so they've got a reputation. On top of this operation, they have a temple system, which may or may not be known to the general public.

Im pretty sure people in Braavos know who the people from the house of black and white are. When Arya first got to Braavos everyone on the ship introduced themselves by their full name untill she knew all their names. At the time I didnt think anything of it until the meeting of assains in Dance where assignments were turned down because they knew someone. I think it may be common knowledge what goes on there. Which only leads credence to the fact that the FM have some political power considering the most feared assassins in the world are allowed to exist without any fear of reprisals.

[Frey Pie]

You are correct that the history of the FM is rich with morality. How else could one justify the murders and assassinations that the FM do?

I believe that there is more to the story about the origins of the FM. Remember, we have this story from the FM themselves and it could be influenced by their viewpoint. I have a feeling that the FM are a little more corrupt and a little less religious than one might think. For instance, it is insinuated in the books that the way targets for assassination are chosen is based on offerings (probably gold) made to the many-faced-god. This seems pretty corrupt to me and not consistent with the moral values presented in the origin of FM story. What do you think?

Ya thats what im trying to get to the bottom of. My real2questions are why do the FM kill i.e. whats their motivation and are they the enemy of dragons. It just seems to me that for people with such a moral and heroic ancestry that theyv gone a far way if they sell themselves to the highest bidder. As you say though this is the story from their perspective. Would Arya have been able to detect if the Kindly Man lied though?

They have a maester in every major castle, I think that's enough motivation to kill the dragons, or keep them dead. Besides, didn't Maester Luwin always discourage Bran from the reality/existence of warging and other some such? Perhaps he never got into the inner circle but also perhaps he was following the Citadel procedure.

Im not sure why the fact that theirs masters everywhere means they wana kill dragons?

Arya is one of very, very many connections between Dany, Braavos and Westeros. I am absolutely certain that the Faceless men are only "against" the great other, and that the Braavosi are getting involved for precisely that reason. I am also absolutely certain that they are not against Dany- that, on the contrary, Braavos will be one of her major allies. Slavery- an important foundation of the other Free Cities' economies and a great evil now- far, far outweighs any 300 year old grudge... in fact, I'd say that the Braavosi don't have any grudge against dragons or Targaryens- the Valyrians died long before the Targaryen dynasty began- but simply see dragons as WMDs; IIRC George himself compared dragons to nukes. It's far more likely that they would try to steal dragons than kill them all.. but I doubt they're going to do that. Dany's a slave freeing idealist with a strong(ish) sense of morality; she's also young, though far from inexperienced. Young idealists are easily manipulated by those who can prop themselves up on the moral high ground beside them... and the slave-free, slave founded Braavos can certainly project a good image to her.

You could be entirely correct. So whys there a FM in Oldtown? To secure the dragon book so nobody else can use it?

[Gogossos]

Im not sure why the fact that theirs masters everywhere means they wana kill dragons?

Second person to ask for clarification, maybe I better spruce up my theory. The Citadel has done very well in the absence of dragons (300 years?). They would want to maintain status quo, right? My thinking is that they don't teach sorcery to everyone of their students and those who are have instructions to keep it under a lid.

[Corm]

Second person to ask for clarification, maybe I better spruce up my theory. The Citadel has done very well in the absence of dragons (300 years?). They would want to maintain status quo, right? My thinking is that they don't teach sorcery to everyone of their students and those who are have instructions to keep it under a lid.

Could you explain how dragons would harm the Citadel's status quo? I don't understand

[cuendillar]

Do you have any idea how costly they are?” Littlefinger complained. “You could hire an army of common sellswords for half the price, and that’s for a merchant. I don’t dare think what they might ask for a princess [Daenerys].

So at least Littlefinger, who is Braavosi by birth, claims that their price is higher for more prominent targets. Especially him mentioning "half the price" makes it seem as he might have dealt with them before. It's of course possible that the price also varies with moral implications, but I haven't seen that explicitly stated.

[Skrubbeltrang]

I think Gogossos means that dragons seem to amplify the power of magic in the world. If this continues the maesters will lose influence as magic becomes more common and "useful". Also, since the citadel has a sort-of scientific approach to things their whole system of teachings and beliefs would be threatened by magic.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

It's of course possible that the price also varies with moral implications, but I haven't seen that explicitly stated.

I would rather expect it to vary with how much the client has and what is dear to him (like a proper sacrifice should be).

By the way, not that it's so terribly important, but I just want to remark that Littlefinger isn't Braavosi by birth. His great-grandfather was.

[bemused]

I think the Iron Bank must have a pretty close connection to the FM...and I wonder who founded the Iron Bank and what wealth they used to found it with ? Hmmm...

If the FM carry out assassinations for the IB, I doubt they can be at the rates usually charged , if at all.

The feeling I got from reading is that the rates for ordinary supplicants were not necessarily just financial but moved on a sliding scale .The cost ( whether financial or a combination of financial and personal )seems to be so great as to really give the person / entity cause to very carefully consider if the death is really worth it to them.

OTOH , the intelligence side of their activities , from the hints given in the book , seem to be in their own interests , or the interests of Braavos, including the IB and reasonably The Sealord .. They may be carried out for other reasons , but there's been no hint that say , E.G., that whoever sits the Iron Throne could hire them to carry out espionage. There seems to be more to it than Arya has learned so far , or than is commonly known ( at least in Westeros). The FM be can hired to carry out an assassination, but their intelligence missions may not involve killing anyone , while at the same time , the individual operative can kill as necessary to their mission ... no contract required.

** On a side note , this plays into my doubts that The FM seen in the Dwarf Woman of High Heart's dream symbolized a contract taken out by Euron , rather than, perhaps ,a future contract on Euron ( Does the crow represent the contractor ... or the target of the contract ?)...I can't imagine it would be in the IB's or Braavos' interest to have Euron take the Iron Throne , or be messing up their business in the attempt ( He doesn't make agreements, just takes what he wants..he has nothing against slavery, and so on ). I doubt even a dragon's egg would pay for the potential damage , especially since there are already hatched dragons elsewhere.. Even if Euron offered it before they could have known of Dany's hatchlings , one dragon does not reproduce. ( I could see them helping to advance some plan like Asha's, requested or not .) **

The IB lends to other states, The Sealord oversees trade with other states , but if those activities start to diverge from the interests of Braavos, an assassination may well follow.I can't see the FM agreeing to a contract , no matter how lucrative , that was contrary to the interests of their state.

The FM have a religion , but are not exactly a religion , per se. It's not an expanding religion..we don't see Houses of Black and White springing up in other cities , so the H of B & W doesn't have to support expenditures in new temples or in maintaining a massive " clergy ". There are no public ceremonies such as we see at the other temples in Braavos. They're not in the business of converting the masses.

And isn't the religion of the Moonsingers the official Braavosi religion ? It at least has the largest temple. They led the exodus from Valyria and chose the location for Braavos.They appear to be a real religion in the normal sense of the word.

I have to hold it there , my life is calling me .. ;)

[Frey Pie]

Second person to ask for clarification, maybe I better spruce up my theory. The Citadel has done very well in the absence of dragons (300 years?). They would want to maintain status quo, right? My thinking is that they don't teach sorcery to everyone of their students and those who are have instructions to keep it under a lid.

True they do wanna maintain this status quo. Then again theyve done this quite well over the last few tousand years are so. For the world theyve been building theres been no technological advances in yonks. Dragons have only been gone for the last150years and only appeared over300years ago. The Citadel probably dont like them but as for the increase/decrease of their power i dont see it

[Elaena Targaryen]

This is the Braavosi view of dragons...

...No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.”

“Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.”

“My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who

fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.”

No, I suppose not.

“My apologies, Lord Tycho.”

“None is required, Lord Commander....

Beside what the Kindly Man told Arya about the slave mines of Valyria and what Lord Tycho says I do not believe Braavosi will ever support dragons.

Even if Dany is a martyr freeing slaves the dragons will out live her and who will have them then? For that matter we know Dany is probably controlling Drogon but who will control the others, maybe Dany but maybe not, it could be their dragon riders or maybe the dragon horn works? What about any new dragons that could hatch?

And so on, this would be never ending, too many variables that do not have any favorable outcomes. The Braavosi know dragons are bad news.

Not to mention Jon was joking about having a dragon on the Wall, so if they think that would be a good thing to help fight the Others then Tyco might know that given his postion and place he was sent, but even if it was only info the FM would have then why influence Arya in a negative way about dragons?

I just don't see them supporting Dany and her dragons but Martin could surprise me I quess.

[Menos Grande]

There are at least two real gods in Song of Fire and Ice, obviously the god of Fire, and the god of Ice. We know that R'hllor the lord of light is real for all the things that happenend, and also the one whose name cannot be spoken. All the other gods are possibly the same two gods, except the Old ones (the old gods are truely people and children of the forest that were skinchanger and could change into a weirdwood, their power is misterious, but they don't seem as strong as R'hllor or the other one). The seven seems to me as just a way of brainwashing the people.. and because of the weakning of the magic twords the world uppon the death of the dragons. As the world got less magical, there was a need of gods that were less present .. just like christianism even though the cristians belive in god, the people cannot make magic or attain more power even worshiping God, only gods has power and he seldom interfir.

The god of Ice is also the god of Bravos because they feared the Dragonlords .. so they looked for help in the other god, yet he is the god of death and evil(?).

R'hllor itself is life, fire, blood. But fire can be as deadly as Ice and Death, both gods are in struggle, both gods are somewhat god and bad, but I do belive the many faced god is worse as he is the leader of the dead (zumbi) and Walkers. It is strange but i think that in a way Arya is walking toward the path of evil... who knows maybe someday she might kill Daenerys or Jon Snow (if Melissandre gives his life back).

[The Dornishman's Wife]

There are at least two real gods in Song of Fire and Ice, obviously the god of Fire, and the god of Ice. We know that R'hllor the lord of light is real for all the things that happenend, and also the one whose name cannot be spoken.

I'm wary about asserting the reality of gods within the series. Yes, R'hollor followers can do certain stuff that seems supernatural. So can other people: FM, CotF, Starks, Maegi, Pyromancers, Dragonmasters, Euron, Bloodraven, the Undying, ....... just because they found some cool special feature of the universe that doesn't make their gods necessarily real. Even less so the creatures in their canon which they don't claim to be the source of their powers (such as R'hollor's nemesis).

The seven seems to me as just a way of brainwashing the people.. and because of the weakning of the magic twords the world uppon the death of the dragons. As the world got less magical, there was a need of gods that were less present ..

You're certainly right in that the increased presence of magic in the world is bad news for the Faith of the 7, who can't as easily take credit for cool magic tricks. However, the Faith was around a long time before dragons came to Westeros. In particular it was the dominant religion of (southern) Westeros before the weakening of magic.

The god of Ice is also the god of Bravos because they feared the Dragonlords .. so they looked for help in the other god, yet he is the god of death and evil(?).

I know Melissandre is fond of saying that every god beside R'hollor is the great Other himself and I don't doubt that she'd agree with that sentence. So if you think she knows what she's talking about, that would make sense. Yet the Bravosi themselves are quite positive that they worship many different gods in their city (one of which is R'hollor BTW) and I think none of those we learned about declares himself as god of Ice.

I do belive the many faced god is worse as he is the leader of the dead (zumbi) and Walkers. It is strange but i think that in a way Arya is walking toward the path of evil... who knows maybe someday she might kill Daenerys or Jon Snow (if Melissandre gives his life back).

Certainly there seems to be a lot of darkness in Arya's path. However, at least what we're told about the many faced god would not fit in with him as leader of the big bad zombie army: The whole concept of death as treasured deliverance from the life of sorrow goes in quite a different direction than the whole necromancy stuff. These are very different concepts of worshipping death.

[The Undead Martyr]

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R'hllor itself is life, fire, blood. But fire can be as deadly as Ice and Death, both gods are in struggle, both gods are somewhat god and bad, but I do belive the many faced god is worse as he is the leader of the dead (zumbi) and Walkers. It is strange but i think that in a way Arya is walking toward the path of evil... who knows maybe someday she might kill Daenerys or Jon Snow (if Melissandre gives his life back).

According to R'hllor's priests, he's the only source of light. Braavos and the FM are against that; i.e. they don't adhere to a simplistic dichotomy.

This is the Braavosi view of dragons...

We don't "jest" of nukes, either; there was a Fox News correspondent who suggested using a nuke to vaporize the BP oil spill, which is analogous to Jon's joke.

It doesn't mean that the Braavosi are unequivocally against dragons; just that they take them seriously.

Beside what the Kindly Man told Arya about the slave mines of Valyria and what Lord Tycho says I do not believe Braavosi will ever support dragons.

Again... where is the connection between slaves and dragons? Valyria is the sole link; and it's gone.

The Targaryens had dragons for at least a century; would that stop the Iron Bank from working with the Iron throne?

Even if Dany is a martyr freeing slaves the dragons will out live her and who will have them then? For that matter we know Dany is probably controlling Drogon but who will control the others, maybe Dany but maybe not, it could be their dragon riders or maybe the dragon horn works? What about any new dragons that could hatch?

First, Dany isn't a slave; second, dragons can be killed/stolen/poisoned/whatever, and there's a chance that the dragons might not survive the war.

Arya's also a potential rider, and as a warg, she could easily have a "second life" within a dragon or a direwolf...

also, my main argument is that the FM are against the Others; everything else is secondary. In other words, risking a dragon resurgence is a small price for saving the world, and Braavos is clearly taking all possible measures to mitigate/curb the risk of dragons going wild...

Speaking of which, it's entirely possible that they mean to kill the dragons and/or Dany after the Others are dealt with; hence, Jaquen is going to discover/steal a method of stealing/killing dragons in the citadel, for clean-up duty.

Having a second-life Arya is another precaution; she might very well be forced into it, i.e. by having her human body dying.

And so on, this would be never ending, too many variables that do not have any favorable outcomes. The Braavosi know dragons are bad news.

Not to mention Jon was joking about having a dragon on the Wall, so if they think that would be a good thing to help fight the Others then Tyco might know that given his postion and place he was sent, but even if it was only info the FM would have then why influence Arya in a negative way about dragons?

I just don't see them supporting Dany and her dragons but Martin could surprise me I quess.

Again, they're against the Others. there are a lot of variables and risks; but then, nothing is perfect, and against the weight of the world....

[Frey Pie]

I still think Dany will have to be very careful with her dragons. In saying that theyre not really hers. Drogon is but the others are up for grabs. Victarion or Euron seem like two likely candidates to get one of the dragons. Bot of these have indulged in slavery. If Braavos hears of Dragonriders involved in slavery that might get their attention. They take dragons very seriously. So while i think the Sealord,Iron Bank and FM society are all linked and work often together i could see them turning on a dragonrider as a potential enemy.Having said thaty for now i do think that they are alloed and working towards the saving of Westeros