Moralityof Assassins, a possible rogue and an enemy of dragons

[Frey Pie]

Regarding the candles- I'm of the mind that the "Quaithe" in Dany's visions is either Marwyn and/or a Faceless Man... notice how she didn't warn about a "wolf" or "titan" or even a maester... all of whom may or may not show up with Dany.

All of the "others" who were warned against would drag Dany into a "southern" conflict, and/or pose a threat to her; victarion wants to steal her, and/or her dragons, Tyrion, Quentyn, Griff etc. all want her backing in the "Game of Thrones" instead of the real fight.. as Stannis said, "I can't put the cart before the horse" i.e. save the realm (from the OTHERS) to get the crown. Braavos clearly agrees.

Great call. What was it Marwyn said? The glass candle enables a sorcerer to send messages and visions. This would explain a lot about Quaithes appearance. Except for her first one where she seems more real/solid. Also why would Marwyn tell her to go east to go west? Unless he has prior knowledge of some prophecy

[Frey Pie]

Another interesting thing is that the novice Lazy Leo is trained in the use of a Bravosi blade. He is the only other person besides Arya in Westeros who was trained with one that we have seen. Is it just a coincedence or is there some signifigance to it.

Well caught. I also noticed the Braavos style blade but nver took any further notice in it. Link for the Tyrells perhaps? Or possibly nothing. Who knows with George!

[The Undead Martyr]

Well caught. I also noticed the Braavos style blade but nver took any further notice in it. Link for the Tyrells perhaps? Or possibly nothing. Who knows with George!

Well, Illyrio was also a Bravo in his youth, and IIRC there are bravos in Volantis; I'm under the impression that the "water dance" is just a free city thing, or at most a Braavosi variant.

Great call. What was it Marwyn said? The glass candle enables a sorcerer to send messages and visions. This would explain a lot about Quaithes appearance. Except for her first one where she seems more real/solid. Also why would Marwyn tell her to go east to go west? Unless he has prior knowledge of some prophecy

Token prophetic words, perhaps? I suspect that the "dream vision" is an indirect thing, i.e. you can't put words/images into a person's head if they can't relate to them, but can "worm" messages in through forcing the message into preexisting memories within the dreamers' minds.. even if Marwyn et al wanted to appear as themselves, they couldn't make Dany (who never met him/them) see anyone else.

[Frey Pie]

Token prophetic words, perhaps? I suspect that the "dream vision" is an indirect thing, i.e. you can't put words/images into a person's head if they can't relate to them, but can "worm" messages in through forcing the message into preexisting memories within the dreamers' minds.. even if Marwyn et al wanted to appear as themselves, they couldn't make Dany (who never met him/them) see anyone else.

Quite possibly. Yet it cant be discounted as a theory at this moment as we really dont have enough evidence as to the power of the candles. It seems it can be used like a palantir from Lord Of the Rings. As i said i do like the Marwyn/Quaithe theory but her first appearance would seem to go against this

[Elaena Targaryen]

Thanks everyone for explaining a little further on the theory that the Faceless Men are against the Others, I do see it as possible. From the text I think the FM have a respect for all religions, even the old gods which did not start as a human religion. I see where it's possible the FM think the Others go against their MFG and may have issues with wights but I wondered what the FM think about R'hllor. It's questionable whether the red priests are alive, or even human, in a normal sense but what about the resurections from the "kiss of life" like we see with UnBeric and UnCat. I would think the FM would not approve of any type of resurection or the cheating of death by being possibly imortal like the Others might be. So I wanted to know what all of you think about this and I know the wights seem to have more occurences than the undeads but they are similar.

********************

I have wondered if the FM had anyone in Dany's camp, and now with the Others theory if they are at the Wal alsol. If Dany and her dragons are important to the FM you would think they would post an agent close to her and I wonder who it could be. Now if the FM are against the Others and they want to use the dragons they may not need a man at the Wall but you would think they might want an agent monitoring the situation there too and I wonder who it could be. I want to look into all of this a little more.

[Frey Pie]

Thanks everyone for explaining a little further on the theory that the Faceless Men are against the Others, I do see it as possible. From the text I think the FM have a respect for all religions, even the old gods which did not start as a human religion. I see where it's possible the FM think the Others go against their MFG and may have issues with wights but I wondered what the FM think about R'hllor. It's questionable whether the red priests are alive, or even human, in a normal sense but what about the resurections from the "kiss of life" like we see with UnBeric and UnCat. I would think the FM would not approve of any type of resurection or the cheating of death by being possibly imortal like the Others might be. So I wanted to know what all of you think about this and I know the wights seem to have more occurences than the undeads but they are similar.

********************

I have wondered if the FM had anyone in Dany's camp, and now with the Others theory if they are at the Wal alsol. If Dany and her dragons are important to the FM you would think they would post an agent close to her and I wonder who it could be. Now if the FM are against the Others and they want to use the dragons they may not need a man at the Wall but you would think they might want an agent monitoring the situation there too and I wonder who it could be. I want to look into all of this a little more.

Ha you had me at thanks. You raise a good point. The FM do have a healthy respect for other gods-we see weirwood quite a lot in their temple. However they do seem to see themselves as types of grim reapers. I think it would be interesting to see how they would react to a target e.g. Jon for the sake of it, if he got back up after being killed. Is their due to their god paid? Would they indeed see it as proof that the person they have killed obviously still has a role to play and so has been spared by the MFG?

Bran Vras hypothesised that Jaqen is actually Daario. This would probably only work if he isnt the alchemist as is commonly believed. Other then that who else could it be? Missandei is in a very prominent position....but her brothers would have to be fooled also.

[Frey Pie]

On re-reading Aryas last chapter in Dance i dont think theres any way that the FM are just assassins. Arya tells the bossman ways she was thinking of killing her first target that involved killing another and he immediately tells her no. This shows that they have some kind of morality among their ranks. It also points towards the Alchemist being a rogue. Unless his mission is so important that hes got a license to kill, not unlike James Bond.

More and more im starting to think that the FM have more then just a train Arya role to play. I also am thinking that Arya will be sent to Dany. Now if she goes as an imposter whos in a position perfect for a little girl to mimic? Missandei

[jarl the climber]

Well, Illyrio was also a Bravo in his youth, and IIRC there are bravos in Volantis; I'm under the impression that the "water dance" is just a free city thing, or at most a Braavosi variant.

Token prophetic words, perhaps? I suspect that the "dream vision" is an indirect thing, i.e. you can't put words/images into a person's head if they can't relate to them, but can "worm" messages in through forcing the message into preexisting memories within the dreamers' minds.. even if Marwyn et al wanted to appear as themselves, they couldn't make Dany (who never met him/them) see anyone else.

It is stated by Pate I beleive that Leo was highly proficient with them. He must have had a dancing master to train him. Perhaps Syrio Forel. Its interesting if you consider that he is in the company of Jaqen Hagar, a man some think is Syrio. I do not beleive this but still....

[jon rr stark]

I got the impression when I first read it that Jaqen had gone rouge or even left the FM and Arya put him back on task.He in effect did kill Jaqen and returned back to Being an FM to complete whatever mission he was assigned.

[ARYa_Nym]

Thanks everyone for explaining a little further on the theory that the Faceless Men are against the Others, I do see it as possible. From the text I think the FM have a respect for all religions, even the old gods which did not start as a human religion. I see where it's possible the FM think the Others go against their MFG and may have issues with wights but I wondered what the FM think about R'hllor. It's questionable whether the red priests are alive, or even human, in a normal sense but what about the resurections from the "kiss of life" like we see with UnBeric and UnCat. I would think the FM would not approve of any type of resurection or the cheating of death by being possibly imortal like the Others might be. So I wanted to know what all of you think about this and I know the wights seem to have more occurences than the undeads but they are similar.

********************

The t.v. show reminded me that Jaqen at least respects R'hllor.

"A man pays his debts. A man owes three."

"Three?"

"The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life."

[Frey Pie]

The t.v. show reminded me that Jaqen at least respects R'hllor.

Very true. I wonder if anything may be taken from the show by the end of it to do with Jaqen

[redriver]

I don't think Jaqen can be Daario because I do think he's the alchemist.

But Daario could be an FM.Iirc there was an FM at the meetings where Arya served as cup bearer,who was good looking,with a two pointed beard which he dyed in different colours every time.

Some interesting ideas in this thread.

[Gogossos]

More and more im starting to think that the FM have more then just a train Arya role to play. I also am thinking that Arya will be sent to Dany. Now if she goes as an imposter whos in a position perfect for a little girl to mimic? Missandei

It's possible that Arya replacing Missandei could be a future plot but I believe it won't really go anywhere after that and would waste the opportunity Missandei presents. She is too smart for her age and according to Barristan already has a brain for playing the game of thrones in a way he could never manage. She knows a few languages and is well travelled. So, if the FM has an agent within Dany's khalasar it could very well be the unsuspected Missandei herself.

[jon rr stark]

All this talk of agents with the FM implies they are playing a game. They have an agenda, but what is it. Whats their end game or goal. Why would the FM have an agent with Dany, its not exactly a secret what she is doing. They could kill her if they wanted to, but such independant action would make them a player in the game, which would change how people view them. There is the suggestion elsewhere on these boards that they had something to do with the downfall of Valyria, not sure is there any evidence. With that in mind I would see a possible agenda in supporting a republic or the nearest thing to it in this world which would be governance based on the Bravos model. So regardless on who is on the throne would they even be in favour of a throne.

[Bran Vras]

I am glad that my idea that Jaqen is Daario is not completely forgotten. It might worthwhile that I recall the argument here.

In fact, it is rather the remark that Jaqen's second face has the same characteristic than Daario's (golden tooth, long curly hair, hooked nose. Daario's scar might be under his beard and is mentioned by Dany when in bed with him.) I have tried to study the timeline. It's not impossible that Daario left Meereen at the end of ASoS and returned in the first half of ADwD after going to Oldtown. Moreover if makes good sense: The Alchemist is in Oldtown just when the news that dragons are in Meereen reach that city (in other words Daario traveled in the same ship that brought the news). Daario saw that knowledge about dragons was much needed in Meereen and went to Oldtown to get the infamous book about dragons (Jaqen might have met Qyburn in Harrenhal and got all the necessary information on the Citadel and the book.) Recall that Jaqen said he will go over the Narrow Sea before saying his farewell to Arya.

However, the notion that Pate is the new face of the Alchemist is not compatible with the Jaqen=Daario hypothesis. In any case the resemblance of faces between Jaqen and Daario is too striking to be dismissed. (Yes, I have listed the hooked nose and golden teeth in the book. It can't be a coincidence.)

[The Undead Martyr]

On re-reading Aryas last chapter in Dance i dont think theres any way that the FM are just assassins. Arya tells the bossman ways she was thinking of killing her first target that involved killing another and he immediately tells her no. This shows that they have some kind of morality among their ranks. It also points towards the Alchemist being a rogue. Unless his mission is so important that hes got a license to kill, not unlike James Bond.

More and more im starting to think that the FM have more then just a train Arya role to play. I also am thinking that Arya will be sent to Dany. Now if she goes as an imposter whos in a position perfect for a little girl to mimic? Missandei

Why bother impersonating Missandei when she could arrive as herself? You know, Arya Stark, who can easily identify with Dany and have strong motivations for following her (and vice versa from Dany's PoV): Ned's girl, claimant to the north, badass wolf-warg with literal eyes in Westeros, a good lie detector, and decent liar and/or spy/assassin, well educated by the FM and as a noblewoman, competent, clever, a strong sense of justice (misguided or otherwise...) similarly ill-fated as a woman in a man's society, a potential squire/bodyguard, a keen desire for vengeance arising from very real injustices and a tragic past and the virtual extinction of her house (from her PoV, anyway), a strong desire for a safe, stable home, etc...... she'd be a dragon rider and/or confidant within a month, as she's more than smart enough to play off Dany's sympathies and morals and is perfectly palatable for her inner court even without lying.

Thanks everyone for explaining a little further on the theory that the Faceless Men are against the Others, I do see it as possible. From the text I think the FM have a respect for all religions, even the old gods which did not start as a human religion. I see where it's possible the FM think the Others go against their MFG and may have issues with wights but I wondered what the FM think about R'hllor. It's questionable whether the red priests are alive, or even human, in a normal sense but what about the resurections from the "kiss of life" like we see with UnBeric and UnCat. I would think the FM would not approve of any type of resurection or the cheating of death by being possibly imortal like the Others might be. So I wanted to know what all of you think about this and I know the wights seem to have more occurences than the undeads but they are similar.

********************

I have wondered if the FM had anyone in Dany's camp, and now with the Others theory if they are at the Wal alsol. If Dany and her dragons are important to the FM you would think they would post an agent close to her and I wonder who it could be. Now if the FM are against the Others and they want to use the dragons they may not need a man at the Wall but you would think they might want an agent monitoring the situation there too and I wonder who it could be. I want to look into all of this a little more.

Tycho Nestoris, the badass banker, is an envoy from the Iron bank who arrived with like five ships and promise of support for Stannis, food for the wall, and even loaned the ships to Jon to send to friggin Hardhometo save some wildlings. F*** money, Hardhome's a hellhole (compared to Valyria, in the sense that it's an ongoing doom) where even the Black Brothers (IE Bowen Marsh) didn't want to go... if that isn't proof of Braavos' stance against Others (i.e. no having another 10000+ wildling corpse wights to fight) then I don't know what is.

[Edwin Snow]

Im not entirely convinced that Daario and Jaquen are the same people. Im not even sure of the fact that Jaquen is the alchemist. The Blood Raven had his agents before he went north of the wall, whose to say that the alchemist isnt one of his. I would like to think Jaquen is seeking out a blood raven agent rather than being a rogue. That would be more along the lines of what the FM would be trying to combat.

[The Undead Martyr]

Im not entirely convinced that Daario and Jaquen are the same people. Im not even sure of the fact that Jaquen is the alchemist. The Blood Raven had his agents before he went north of the wall, whose to say that the alchemist isnt one of his. I would like to think Jaquen is seeking out a blood raven agent rather than being a rogue. That would be more along the lines of what the FM would be trying to combat.

For my part, I believe that Jaquen is most likely within the Citadel as Pate, because, aside from Occam's razor (i.e. the face changing, the name changing, the Citadel being anti-magic and enemies of Danaerys' Other-killing dragons, etc. all point to him being a FM, and the description matches the ACoK jaquen 2.0 to a T) it reinforces the connection between the wall and the FM and opens up a big can of speculation on the Sarella-Dorne connection.

I can't see why some people think Jaquen/Pate is a rogue, though; it's contrived, and piles the wild-ass guess of the FM's motives on top of a wild ass guess as to their code of conduct and another wild-ass guess as to what rogue Jaquen is doing there.

I take Jaquen and Marywn at face value, because assuming Jaquen is indeed an active FM in support of the get-Dany's ass to Westeros ASAP scheme, and thus against the implied Citadel kill-the-magic-wielding heretics conspiracy (at the very least, the fact that Jaquen killed a man to get in and that the FM also happen to use magic, the two groups aren't on speaking terms) then Marwyn was either telling the truth (or at least part of it, i.e. that the Citadel is against magic, that he's supporting Dany, that Sam needs to pipe down, etc) or he's lying big-time in front of Jaquen and Sarella; if he knew enough to watch his words around Pate, then he knew enough to turn Jaquen over to the Citadel's elite- and the two of them are too diabolically badass not to leave a major mess if/when one of them tried to kill the other. The fact that Sam and Sarella are both alive and unharmed in the middle of a similarly peaceful Citadel implies that the two aren't out to kill each other; thus, they are allied.

Sarella, then, is also allied, because, badass or not, she's at a distinct disadvantage, of being a girl (look at Arya- Gendry noticed, when like five people were with him- and he wasn't a scheming ninja) and (presumably) not having magic; also if she's not at least friendly with the other two, then they would have rooted her out and/or isolated her as a mutual threat...

I doubt they're chummy, though, just that their interests roughly coincide and they're working together.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Tycho Nestoris, the badass banker, is an envoy from the Iron bank who arrived with like five ships and promise of support for Stannis, food for the wall, and even loaned the ships to Jon to send to friggin Hardhometo save some wildlings. F*** money, Hardhome's a hellhole (compared to Valyria, in the sense that it's an ongoing doom) where even the Black Brothers (IE Bowen Marsh) didn't want to go... if that isn't proof of Braavos' stance against Others (i.e. no having another 10000+ wildling corpse wights to fight) then I don't know what is.

This is not the impression I had from the text but it is interesting to think Tycho could have had hidden motivations. I'll quote the text to further explore and for discussion.

Jon hung up his cloak. “You come seeking Stannis, is that correct?”

“It is, my lord. Queen Selyse has suggested that we might send word to Deepwood Motte by raven, to inform His Grace that I await his pleasure at the Nightfort. The matter that I mean to put to him is too delicate to entrust to letters.”

“A debt.” What else could it be? “His own debt? Or his brother’s?”

The banker pressed his fingers together. “It would not be proper for me to discuss Lord Stannis’s indebtedness or lack of same. As to King Robert … it was indeed our pleasure to assist His Grace in his need. For so long as Robert lived, all was well. Now, however, the Iron Throne has ceased all

repayment.”

Could the Lannisters truly be so foolish? "You cannot mean to hold Stannis responsible for his

brother’s debts.”

“The debts belong to the Iron Throne,” Tycho declared, “and whoso-ever sits on that chair must pay them. Since young King Tommen and his counsellors have become so obdurate, we mean to broach

the subject with King Stannis. Should he prove himself more worthy of our trust, it would of course be

our great pleasure to lend him whatever help he needs.”

“Help,” the raven screamed. “Help, help, help.”

Much of this Jon had surmised the moment he learned that the Iron Bank had sent an envoy to the Wall. “When last we heard, His Grace was marching on Winterfell to confront Lord Bolton and his allies. You may seek him there if you wish, though that carries a risk. You could find yourself caught up in his war.”

Tycho bowed his head. “We who serve the Iron Bank face death full as often as you who serve

the Iron Throne.”

Is that whom I serve? Jon Snow was no longer certain. “I can provide you with horses, provisions, guides, whatever is required to get you as far as Deepwood Motte. From there you will need to make your own way to Stannis.” And you may well find his head upon a spike. “There will be a price.”

“Price,” screamed Mormont’s raven. “Price, price.”

“There is always a price, is there not?” The Braavosi smiled. “What does the Watch require?”

“Your ships, for a start. With their crews.”

“All three? How will I return to Braavos?”

“I only need them for a single voyage.”

“A hazardous voyage, I assume. For a start, you said?”

“We need a loan as well. Gold enough to keep us fed till spring. To buy food and hire ships to bring it to us.”

“Spring?” Tycho sighed. “It is not possible, my lord.”

What was it Stannis had said to him? You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Lord

Eddard father you on a fishwife? Perhaps he had at that.

It took the better part of an hour before the impossible became possible, and another hour before they could agree on terms. The flagon of mulled wine that Satin delivered helped them settle the more nettlesome points. By the time Jon Snow signed the parchment the Braavosi drew up, both of them were half-drunk and quite unhappy. Jon thought that a good sign.

[Frey Pie]

It's possible that Arya replacing Missandei could be a future plot but I believe it won't really go anywhere after that and would waste the opportunity Missandei presents. She is too smart for her age and according to Barristan already has a brain for playing the game of thrones in a way he could never manage. She knows a few languages and is well travelled. So, if the FM has an agent within Dany's khalasar it could very well be the unsuspected Missandei herself.

I agree if theres a FM in Danys group, Missandei and Daario are the only ones close enough to Dany to make a difference. Missandei is well-liked by everyone and is in every council. The problem is would an imposter be able to feign knowledge and love of her brothers. I believe two are in the unsullied, with one being killed

All this talk of agents with the FM implies they are playing a game. They have an agenda, but what is it. Whats their end game or goal. Why would the FM have an agent with Dany, its not exactly a secret what she is doing. They could kill her if they wanted to, but such independant action would make them a player in the game, which would change how people view them. There is the suggestion elsewhere on these boards that they had something to do with the downfall of Valyria, not sure is there any evidence. With that in mind I would see a possible agenda in supporting a republic or the nearest thing to it in this world which would be governance based on the Bravos model. So regardless on who is on the throne would they even be in favour of a throne.

Thats part of what id really like to know. Possibly they are just meddling. Dany has become a superpower overnight and Braavos wants to keep its position in the world. It is possible that a Aegon the conqueror type figure would scare them into action against her

I am glad that my idea that Jaqen is Daario is not completely forgotten. It might worthwhile that I recall the argument here.

In fact, it is rather the remark that Jaqen's second face has the same characteristic than Daario's (golden tooth, long curly hair, hooked nose. Daario's scar might be under his beard and is mentioned by Dany when in bed with him.) I have tried to study the timeline. It's not impossible that Daario left Meereen at the end of ASoS and returned in the first half of ADwD after going to Oldtown. Moreover if makes good sense: The Alchemist is in Oldtown just when the news that dragons are in Meereen reach that city (in other words Daario traveled in the same ship that brought the news). Daario saw that knowledge about dragons was much needed in Meereen and went to Oldtown to get the infamous book about dragons (Jaqen might have met Qyburn in Harrenhal and got all the necessary information on the Citadel and the book.) Recall that Jaqen said he will go over the Narrow Sea before saying his farewell to Arya.

However, the notion that Pate is the new face of the Alchemist is not compatible with the Jaqen=Daario hypothesis. In any case the resemblance of faces between Jaqen and Daario is too striking to be dismissed. (Yes, I have listed the hooked nose and golden teeth in the book. It can't be a coincidence.)

Bran i do like this theory. The way is see it is the FM are not just assassins but spies also. Daario is in a perfect position to spy and influence Dany and as you say the resemblance is uncanny. Was there also a quote where he says hes going accross the Narrow Sea?

Im not entirely convinced that Daario and Jaquen are the same people. Im not even sure of the fact that Jaquen is the alchemist. The Blood Raven had his agents before he went north of the wall, whose to say that the alchemist isnt one of his. I would like to think Jaquen is seeking out a blood raven agent rather than being a rogue. That would be more along the lines of what the FM would be trying to combat.

I would think the BRs agents would be animals but i could be wrong.It also begs the question how would anyone know of BRs existence?

For my part, I believe that Jaquen is most likely within the Citadel as Pate, because, aside from Occam's razor (i.e. the face changing, the name changing, the Citadel being anti-magic and enemies of Danaerys' Other-killing dragons, etc. all point to him being a FM, and the description matches the ACoK jaquen 2.0 to a T) it reinforces the connection between the wall and the FM and opens up a big can of speculation on the Sarella-Dorne connection.

I can't see why some people think Jaquen/Pate is a rogue, though; it's contrived, and piles the wild-ass guess of the FM's motives on top of a wild ass guess as to their code of conduct and another wild-ass guess as to what rogue Jaquen is doing there.

I take Jaquen and Marywn at face value, because assuming Jaquen is indeed an active FM in support of the get-Dany's ass to Westeros ASAP scheme, and thus against the implied Citadel kill-the-magic-wielding heretics conspiracy (at the very least, the fact that Jaquen killed a man to get in and that the FM also happen to use magic, the two groups aren't on speaking terms) then Marwyn was either telling the truth (or at least part of it, i.e. that the Citadel is against magic, that he's supporting Dany, that Sam needs to pipe down, etc) or he's lying big-time in front of Jaquen and Sarella; if he knew enough to watch his words around Pate, then he knew enough to turn Jaquen over to the Citadel's elite- and the two of them are too diabolically badass not to leave a major mess if/when one of them tried to kill the other. The fact that Sam and Sarella are both alive and unharmed in the middle of a similarly peaceful Citadel implies that the two aren't out to kill each other; thus, they are allied.

Sarella, then, is also allied, because, badass or not, she's at a distinct disadvantage, of being a girl (look at Arya- Gendry noticed, when like five people were with him- and he wasn't a scheming ninja) and (presumably) not having magic; also if she's not at least friendly with the other two, then they would have rooted her out and/or isolated her as a mutual threat...

I doubt they're chummy, though, just that their interests roughly coincide and they're working together.

The reason as stated that Jaqen may be a rogue is that wether you believe hes Daario or the Alchemist he has killed men who are not his target. Read Aryas Dancce chapters and you will see how the Kindly Man frowns upon any unsanctioned killing. Its not the FM way so either Jaqens not a FM anymore, was never a FM, has gone rogue or hes on a special mission with permission to see out the mission whatever the cost.

I agree with you that from the little we know of Marwyn he does not seem like the type to be fooled by glamours or FM tricks

Dorne has connetions to Braavos-the Sealord was there when the Viserys/Arianna pact was made. Therefore it is reasonable to assume Dorne and Braavos would be of one mind so a Sarella-Alchemist alliance is within the realms of possibility. However, Braavos has no connection to Aegon and Dornes possible alliance with him could put this connection on hold