Varys and Littlefinger. Possible alliance?

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Yeah they won Robert's war but only because Aerys was mad and Rhaegar more concerned with the future than the present.

More important is Petyr's relationship with Lady Olena.

When Baelish describes (to Sansa) the nature of his prompting the Tyrells to act, I got the impression that he was taking every precaution to make sure they were not actually aware of his agency. Obviously, this would have involved the use of Dontos, or some other catspaw that the Tyrells could think of as their own. I could certainly be wrong about this, however.

In the vale, Littlefinger is Robert Arryn's regent and Lord Protector. Its clear that he is running the vale. Just as Cersei is Tommen's regent. Or is Sansa had inherented winterfell, Tyrion would have been Lord Protector of Winterfell.

But he is only running the Vale so long as he holds Robert (or Harrold, after him). In fact, if he were not all the way up in the Eeyrie, Bronze Yohn and company would most likely have just taken young Arryn by force, with no need for any declaration.

While Hand of the King is an appointment.

Which is exactly how Littlefinger has made every step up the ladder, so far. He has manipulated the witless among his social 'betters' in order to gain their patronage, and the advancement that comes with it. The custom of Gulltown, the master(y?) of coin, and Protectorship of the Vale came through manipulating and marrying Lysa Arryn, and Harrenhal and the empty title that made the Arryn marriage possible came through his helping the Lannisters out of the chaos he himself unleashed upon them.

The point is, all these things were appointed to him by his betters, which is the situation he is doomed to by his station. So, if Hand of the King is the highest honor/office/title one can gain by virtue of appointment (and not blood), it is the highest Baelish can realistically aspire to go.

AND the worst job in the seven kingdoms.

The hardest job ought to go to the most able player, but you may be right in thinking that Petyr isn't concerned with that.

[chris999]

Which is exactly how Littlefinger has made every step up the ladder, so far. He has manipulated the witless among his social 'betters' in order to gain their patronage, and the advancement that comes with it. The custom of Gulltown, the master(y?) of coin, and Protectorship of the Vale came through manipulating and marrying Lysa Arryn, and Harrenhal and the empty title that made the Arryn marriage possible came through his helping the Lannisters out of the chaos he himself unleashed upon them.

The point is, all these things were appointed to him by his betters, which is the situation he is doomed to by his station. So, if Hand of the King is the highest honor/office/title one can gain by virtue of appointment (and not blood), it is the highest Baelish can realistically aspire to go.

The hardest job ought to go to the most able player, but you may be right in thinking that Petyr isn't concerned with that.

Although I think that Littlefinger would love nothing more than to become King Peter, First of his Name, I think that he is angling for either Hand of the King, or maybe even Lord Protector of the Realm, which is basically the Ruler, but doesnt require High Birth.

So, agreed.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

When Baelish describes (to Sansa) the nature of his prompting the Tyrells to act, I got the impression that he was taking every precaution to make sure they were not actually aware of his agency. Obviously, this would have involved the use of Dontos, or some other catspaw that the Tyrells could think of as their own. I could certainly be wrong about this, however.

No. He was playing both sides against the middle. Making overt overtures to Mace Tyrell, to make sure he pushed for the alliance. Setting the hook by planting the seed of the idea that Loras should join the Kingsguard. And covertly he made overtures to Lady Olena.

Sansa spooned up some juice from her own orange. “But if it wasn’t the Kettleblacks and it wasn’t Ser Dontos... you weren’t even in the city, and it couldn’t have been Tyrion...”

“No more guesses, sweetling?”

She shook her head. “I don’t...”

Petyr smiled. “I will wager you that at some point during the evening someone told you that your hair net was crooked and straightened it for you.”

Sansa raised a hand to her mouth. “You cannot mean... she wanted to take me to Highgarden, to marry me to her grandson...”

“Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless.

The old woman is not boring, though, I’ll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery’s hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey’s nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure... whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell’s servants. That is how the game is played.

“I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell’s army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

“Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras’s inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract. Who better to protect his daughter than her splendid

knightly brother?

And it relieved him of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras’s case.

“Be that as it may. Lady Olenna was not about to let Joff harm her precious darling granddaughter, but unlike her son she also realized that under all his flowers and finery, Ser Loras is as hot-tempered as Jaime Lannister. Toss Joffrey, Margaery, and Loras in a pot, and you’ve got the makings for kingslayer stew. The old woman understood something else as well. Her son was determined to make Margaery a queen, and for that he needed a king... but he did not need Joffrey.

We shall have another wedding soon, wait and see. Margaery will marry Tommen. She’ll keep her queenly crown and her maidenhead, neither of which she especially wants, but what does that matter? The great western alliance will be preserved... for a time, at least.”

But he is only running the Vale so long as he holds Robert (or Harrold, after him). In fact, if he were not all the way up in the Eeyrie, Bronze Yohn and company would most likely have just taken young Arryn by force, with no need for any declaration.

if ifs and buts were candy and nuts everyday would be christmas

Which is exactly how Littlefinger has made every step up the ladder, so far. He has manipulated the witless among his social 'betters' in order to gain their patronage, and the advancement that comes with it. The custom of Gulltown, the master(y?) of coin, and Protectorship of the Vale came through manipulating and marrying Lysa Arryn, and Harrenhal and the empty title that made the Arryn marriage possible came through his helping the Lannisters out of the chaos he himself unleashed upon them.

The point is, all these things were appointed to him by his betters, which is the situation he is doomed to by his station. So, if Hand of the King is the highest honor/office/title one can gain by virtue of appointment (and not blood), it is the highest Baelish can realistically aspire to go.

The hardest job ought to go to the most able player, but you may be right in thinking that Petyr isn't concerned with that.

It is the highest honor he can get by appointment. But he would never take it, for its own sake. Its a poison prize. Too weak and all the realms problems are blamed on you, too strong and the king perceives you as a threat. Its not his blood that would entitle him to the Iron Throne, it would be the blood of his enemies, blood & fire. The same way Dany became Queen of Meereen, the way first Stark won the North, the first Baratheon the stormlands, the way the first Arryn rested the Vale from the hands of the First Men. Blood & Fire.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

But he would never take it, for its own sake. Its a poison prize. Too weak and all the realms problems are blamed on you, too strong and the king perceives you as a threat. Its not his blood that would entitle him to the Iron Throne, it would be the blood of his enemies, blood & fire. The same way Dany became Queen of Meereen, the way first Stark won the North, the first Baratheon the stormlands, the way the first Arryn rested the Vale from the hands of the First Men. Blood & Fire.

The problem with this is: who is going to fight and die to put Littlefinger on the throne? The Vale would maybe fight to put Robert (or Harrold) on the throne, but not Baelish. This is why he can't hold the throne in his own name. It's not realistic.

As for the toxicity of being Hand, I imagine he won't have any problems from a King he makes himself. The key will be to get the most out of his pieces: the Vale for Harrold, the North for his wife, Sansa - and perhaps the River too, as she has the Tully look, and Baelish's as-of-yet hollow Overlordship will look different if he indicates he'd restore a Tully to Riverrun.

With respect to Olenna, I'm familiar with the material you quoted. It most certainly establishes that Littlefinger used his time with the Tyrells to plant the seed of Joffrey's murder, but there's nothing there to conclusively prove that he was collaborating with the Lady Olenna - he may just have been manipulating her, like everyone else.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The problem with this is: who is going to fight and die to put Littlefinger on the throne?

anyone. everyone.

When I was not fighting, I was drunk. My life was writ in red, in blood and wine.”

“When did it change?” asked Brienne.

“When I died in the Battle of the Trident.

I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river.

The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

The Vale would maybe fight to put Robert (or Harrold) on the throne, but not Baelish. This is why he can't hold the throne in his own name. It's not realistic.

As for the toxicity of being Hand, I imagine he won't have any problems from a King he makes himself. The key will be to get the most out of his pieces: the Vale for Harrold, the North for his wife, Sansa - and perhaps the River too, as she has the Tully look, and Baelish's as-of-yet hollow Overlordship will look different if he indicates he'd restore a Tully to Riverrun.

With respect to Olenna, I'm familiar with the material you quoted. It most certainly establishes that Littlefinger used his time with the Tyrells to plant the seed of Joffrey's murder, but there's nothing there to conclusively prove that he was collaborating with the Lady Olenna - he may just have been manipulating her, like everyone else.

I suppose, but i feel like assurances would need to be made in order to bring the Tyrells into the alliance. Remember they only got there at the last possible second. So I don't feel like they would provide such a critical and timely intervention without said assurance. Further, if he's not trying to win Olena as an ally why involve her at all? Don't send your men to spread tales about Joffrey being a monster. Just secure the Tyrell alliance and then poison Joffrey yourself if you want him gone. But there's no real reason for Littlefinger to want him gone except for as a means demonstrating his loyalty and value to house Tyrell, or more specifically Olena.

[Josephxoxo]

Well, they're certainly the smartest duo in the series, so it would make sense, but no.. It seems that Littlefinger is going to support Stannis whereas Vary's supports Aegon. Why else would he seize control the armies of the Vale, he need's an allegiance somewhere and now that he controls the Vale he can go to war with anyone he chooses. The lords of the Vale certainly won't support Daenery's or Aegon.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

anyone. everyone.

When I was not fighting, I was drunk. My life was writ in red, in blood and wine.”

“When did it change?” asked Brienne.

“When I died in the Battle of the Trident.

I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river.

The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

You're making my point for me here. To have an army behind him, Baelish would need the top tier of that hierarchy (the lords who are served by lords who are served by...) to support a man served by, like, four people. That's why he needs a beard.

I suppose, but i feel like assurances would need to be made in order to bring the Tyrells into the alliance. Remember they only got there at the last possible second. So I don't feel like they would provide such a critical and timely intervention without said assurance. Further, if he's not trying to win Olena as an ally why involve her at all? Don't send your men to spread tales about Joffrey being a monster. Just secure the Tyrell alliance and then poison Joffrey yourself if you want him gone. But there's no real reason for Littlefinger to want him gone except for as a means demonstrating his loyalty and value to house Tyrell, or more specifically Olena.

I'm not denying the validity of this argument, and it may very well be true. I just think it's possible that Baelish engineered Joffrey's murder simply to kill the Lannister/Tyrell alliance in the cradle, in which case it may have been in his best interest that Olenna didn't realize his involvement (and thus make him for a Player).

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Well, they're certainly the smartest duo in the series, so it would make sense, but no.. It seems that Littlefinger is going to support Stannis whereas Vary's supports Aegon. Why else would he seize control the armies of the Vale, he need's an allegiance somewhere and now that he controls the Vale he can go to war with anyone he chooses. The lords of the Vale certainly won't support Daenery's or Aegon.

Ned gave him a stony stare. “Have you no shred of honor?”

“Oh, a shred, surely,” Littlefinger replied negligently. “Hear me out. Stannis is no friend of yours, nor of mine. Even his brothers can scarcely stomach him. The man is iron, hard and unyielding. He’ll give us a new Hand and a new council, for a certainty. No doubt he’ll thank you for handing him the crown, but he won’t love you for it. And his ascent will mean war. Stannis cannot rest easy on the throne until Cersei and her bastards are dead. Do you think Lord Tywin will sit idly while his daughter’s head is measured for a spike? Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm’s End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

“Now look at the other side of the coin. Joffrey is but twelve, and Robert gave you the regency, my lord. You are the Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. The power is yours, Lord Stark. All you need do is reach out and take it. Make your peace with the Lannisters. Release the Imp. Wed Joffrey to your Sansa. Wed your younger girl to Prince Tommen, and your heir to Myrcella. It will be four years before Joffrey comes of age. By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well... four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne.”

The news about the Starks had soured her, he could see. “We’ve had no word from Bitterbridge?” she asked anxiously as she speared a bit of apple on the point of her dagger and ate it with small, delicate bites.

“None.”

“I’ve never trusted Littlefinger. For enough coin, he’d go over to Stannis in a heartbeat.”

“Stannis Baratheon is too bloody righteous to buy men. Nor would he make a comfortable lord for the likes of Petyr. This war has made for some queer bedfellows, I agree, but those two? No.”

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

You're making my point for me here. To have an army behind him, Baelish would need the top tier of that hierarchy (the lords who are served by lords who are served by...) to support a man served by, like, four people. That's why he needs a beard.

No. I'm not, The lords can be negotiated with and bought, for additional, titles, lands, monies, ect. Just as Walder Frey and Hoster Tully could be bought by marriage pacts. Littlefinger has already demonstrated his ability to marry into Great House and the arrange a marriage for his bastard daughter with the heir of house Arryn. The distinction, I'm making is not that its not possible he might be in some position of power, where he himself is actually title holder. I'm merely saying that he won't be the man behind the curtain. Everyone knows he's Lord Protector of the Vale, its not a secret. His objective isn't to have another Lysa situation where he's pulling the strings but no one knew it until they got married.

I'm not denying the validity of this argument, and it may very well be true. I just think it's possible that Baelish engineered Joffrey's murder simply to kill the Lannister/Tyrell alliance in the cradle, in which case it may have been in his best interest that Olenna didn't realize his involvement (and thus make him for a Player).

Leaving Joffrey alive would have been a more effective way to break up the alliance. As soon as Joffrey developed a sudden case of "sword through bowl syndrome" courtesy of Loras there would have been blood in the streets. Even Sansa realized that.

“You mustn’t marry him. He’s not like he seems, he’s not. He’ll hurt you.”

“I shouldn’t think so.” Margaery smiled confidently. “It’s brave of you to warn me, but you need not fear. Joff’s spoiled and vain and I don’t doubt that he’s as cruel as you say, but Father forced him to name Loras to his Kingsguard before he would agree to the match. I shall have the finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms protecting me night and day, as Prince Aemon protected Naerys. So our little lion had best behave, hadn’t he?” She laughed, and said, “Come, sweet sister, let’s race back to the river. It will drive our guards quite mad.” And without waiting for an answer, she put her heels into her horse and flew.

She is so brave, Sansa thought, galloping after her... and yet, her doubts still gnawed at her. Ser Loras was a great knight, all agreed. But Joffrey had other Kingsguard, and gold cloaks and red cloaks besides, and when he was older he would command armies of his own. Aegon the Unworthy had never harmed Queen Naerys, perhaps for fear of their brother the Dragonknight... but when another of his Kingsguard fell in love with one of his mistresses, the king had taken both their heads.

Ser Loras is a Tyrell, Sansa reminded herself. That other knight was only a Toyne. His brothers had no armies, no way to avenge him but with swords. Yet the more she thought about it all, the more she wondered. Joff might restrain himself for a few turns, perhaps as long as a year, but soon or late he will show his claws, and when he does... The realm might have a second Kingslayer, and there would be war inside the city, as the men of the lion and the men of the rose made the gutters run red.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

No. I'm not, The lords can be negotiated with and bought, for additional, titles, lands, monies, ect. Just as Walder Frey and Hoster Tully could be bought by marriage pacts. Littlefinger has already demonstrated his ability to marry into Great House and the arrange a marriage for his bastard daughter with the heir of house Arryn. The distinction, I'm making is not that its not possible he might be in some position of power, where he himself is actually title holder. I'm merely saying that he won't be the man behind the curtain. Everyone knows he's Lord Protector of the Vale, its not a secret. His objective isn't to have another Lysa situation where he's pulling the strings but no one knew it until they got married.

Right, and everyone will know that he is Hand, and the true power behind Harry's throne, if and when he gets there.

As to Stannis, I agree that the Littlefinger we were introduced to in AGoT would never have a reason to work with him. But now? If Littlefinger can accrue enough power to make himself indispensable to any claimant he should choose to back, I don't see him ruling Stannis out. Geographically speaking, the Knights of the Vale could be very useful to Stannis, as they are in a position to both help him consolidate the North via White Harbor and prevent King's Landing from reinforcing the Boltons through the Neck. Seeing as Baelish is probably no longer reliant on brothels anyway, never say never...

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I'm not denying the validity of this argument, and it may very well be true. I just think it's possible that Baelish engineered Joffrey's murder simply to kill the Lannister/Tyrell alliance in the cradle, in which case it may have been in his best interest that Olenna didn't realize his involvement (and thus make him for a Player).

Leaving Joffrey alive would have been a more effective way to break up the alliance. As soon as Joffrey developed a sudden case of "sword through bowl syndrome" courtesy of Loras there would have been blood in the streets. Even Sansa realized that.

“You mustn’t marry him. He’s not like he seems, he’s not. He’ll hurt you.”

“I shouldn’t think so.” Margaery smiled confidently. “It’s brave of you to warn me, but you need not fear. Joff’s spoiled and vain and I don’t doubt that he’s as cruel as you say, but Father forced him to name Loras to his Kingsguard before he would agree to the match. I shall have the finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms protecting me night and day, as Prince Aemon protected Naerys. So our little lion had best behave, hadn’t he?” She laughed, and said, “Come, sweet sister, let’s race back to the river. It will drive our guards quite mad.” And without waiting for an answer, she put her heels into her horse and flew.

She is so brave, Sansa thought, galloping after her... and yet, her doubts still gnawed at her. Ser Loras was a great knight, all agreed. But Joffrey had other Kingsguard, and gold cloaks and red cloaks besides, and when he was older he would command armies of his own. Aegon the Unworthy had never harmed Queen Naerys, perhaps for fear of their brother the Dragonknight... but when another of his Kingsguard fell in love with one of his mistresses, the king had taken both their heads.

Ser Loras is a Tyrell, Sansa reminded herself. That other knight was only a Toyne. His brothers had no armies, no way to avenge him but with swords. Yet the more she thought about it all, the more she wondered. Joff might restrain himself for a few turns, perhaps as long as a year, but soon or late he will show his claws, and when he does... The realm might have a second Kingslayer, and there would be war inside the city, as the men of the lion and the men of the rose made the gutters run red.

[Ser Lepus]

Leaving Joffrey alive would have been a more effective way to break up the alliance. As soon as Joffrey developed a sudden case of "sword through bowl syndrome" courtesy of Loras there would have been blood in the streets. Even Sansa realized that.

I will never forgive GRRM for denying us the pleasure of reading that scene...can you imagine how would Joffrey react when he saw pissed Loras coming?

[Tumnas the Torpid]

I will never forgive GRRM for denying us the pleasure of reading that scene...can you imagine how would Joffrey react when he saw pissed Loras coming?

I imagine he'd be about halfway through a lame homophobic insult when Loras cut his head off.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I will never forgive GRRM for denying us the pleasure of reading that scene...can you imagine how would Joffrey react when he saw pissed Loras coming?

nah. i liked the strangler. how he goes from king of the world to not even master of his own throat in no time flat.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

nah. i liked the strangler. how he goes from king of the world to not even master of his own throat in no time flat.

I do like to imagine that, in that final moment, he was reaching out to Tyrion for help.

[Golden Lady]

I would love to see them working together, I think they are the best players of the game.( Tyron is excellent too and some other people too) They know everything, they are so intelligent. It would be great , in my opinion , if they form an alliance.

[chris999]

I would love to see them working together, I think they are the best players of the game.( Tyron is excellent too and some other people too) They know everything, they are so intelligent. It would be great , in my opinion , if they form an alliance.

I like this. Even though personally, I dont think that anybody would be smart enough to outwit these two if they form an alliance, I could also see Tyrion somehow outwitting the two of them, to finally end their rule.

[Golden Lady]

@chris999 I agree with you about tyron. I can see him at the same level of varys and littlefinger.he surpised me. He is not just a dwarf, his brain is brilliant, he is as smart as varys or littlefinger. Anyway, I would prefer a varys/littlefinger alliance rather than a tyron/varys or tyron/littlefinger.

[Purah]

:agree: I can't ever imagine Tyrion allying with Littlefinger considering their rather...rocky relationship. Tyrion sees LF for what he is (a scheming, ambitious and ruthless sociopath), and LF dislikes Tyrion for deceiving him about marrying Myrcella off to Robert Arryn (and we all know how LF holds onto his grudges). I suppose we can analyse this to death as much as we like, but ultimately, Martin only knows what the hell is going on between LF and Varys.

[The Mother of The Others]

Well how many undead are going to be storming the kingdom? Because as the # of Others grows larger, so too grows the chance we'll see an alliance among the breathing folks. Maybe it's like a game of chicken. Neither Varys or Finger want to give up their dreams of empire, but someone may have to submit and let the other guy be top dog so that they can stop fighting other humans and begin banding together agianst other Others.

Or maybe the guy who wins the game of chicken will be the one who dies. He'll hold on to his dreams of conquest only to be the one who gets overrun by the Others because he refused to adapt to a changing situation while his human rival got the hell out of Dodge and lived to fight another day.