The Storm Queen Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Neither of them seem to have what I'd say a healthy view on love and sex.Now that you mention it this seems to be a Lannister family trait :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabyMeraxes Posted April 21, 2012 Author Share Posted April 21, 2012 The bad thing about Cersei is not her sexuality by itself, it is that she uses it to gain political power.More like fails to use it to gain political power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckwheat Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 More like fails to use it to gain political power.She was mostly successful with Lancel ... till Tyrion found out about it. And the Kettleblacks ... oh, right, they were planted by Littlefinger in the first place. And Moon Boy ... he might be one of Varys's birds for all we know ...Yes, I suppose you are right. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Dragonstone Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I'm not judging Cersei for sleeping around. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm judging her for proclaiming to "love" Jaime and then sleeping with Lancel, Osney and Tanda. She doesn't even sleep with Osney out of desire but as a "reward" for killing the High Septon. She views sex as a power play, she said as much to Sansa in ACoK. So it is not at all a leap to assume that she seduced Jaime in some bid to have control over him. You might think her some misunderstood feminist heroine, Queen Cersei I, but she sets back the feminist cause 50 years, IMO. I don't understand why you don't see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I'm not judging Cersei for sleeping around. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm judging her for proclaiming to "love" Jaime and then sleeping with Lancel, Osney and Tanda. She doesn't even sleep with Osney out of desire but as a "reward" for killing the High Septon. She views sex as a power play, she said as much to Sansa in ACoK. So it is not at all a leap to assume that she seduced Jaime in some bid to have control over him. You might think her some misunderstood feminist heroine, Queen Cersei I, but she sets back the feminist cause 50 years, IMO. I don't understand why you don't see that.She is and she isn't. Cersei is a product of her environment, she even says so herself. She wishes she could wield a sword instead, but she can't, so she tries with the "weapons" she has. That's a pretty strong feminist commentary right there, no?She also devalues other women, which is quite common among women brought up to buy into patriarchal beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 One could argue, that a lot of things Cersei does, are done for love. Even her slaughter of Robert's bastards was done to keep her own children safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckwheat Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 One could argue, that a lot of things Cersei does, are done for love. Even her slaughter of Robert's bastards was done to keep her own children safe."The things I do for love ..."Only Cersei does not think about having to do it with disgust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 "The things I do for love ..."Only Cersei does not think about having to do it with disgust.Neither does Jaime, he never seems to regret it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckwheat Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Neither does Jaime, he never seems to regret it at all.When he says that words, he has the look of disgust on his face, like he is doing something extremely unpleasant. Also, his words sound like some mockery over the unjust world or something like that. (He just cannot express his feeling any other way than through mockery.)But later, you are right, he does not even think that it was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 When he says that words, he has the look of disgust on his face, like he is doing something extremely unpleasant. Also, his words sound like some mockery over the unjust world or something like that. (He just cannot express his feeling any other way than through mockery.)But later, you are right, he does not even think that it was wrong.Well, it wasn't wrong for him. He was trying to protect those who he loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderfist Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Jaime was trying to protect the readers from Bran and his boring PoVĀ“s, sadly he failed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Cersei I Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Well, I don't want to ruin this thread or the levity of it, so I'll just comment really briefly on the Jaime/ Cersei thing and then leave you guys to it. Personally, I think Cersei's done some horrible things, but manipulating men with sex and cheating on Jaime are not among them. By comparing these issues to her throwing people to Qyburn or murdering innocent people, I think people actually serve to mitigate and insult her truly heinous attrocites. Sleeping with some guys to get your way or cheating on your significant other should not really be compared to torture or murder.I'm not judging Cersei for sleeping around. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm judging her for proclaiming to "love" Jaime and then sleeping with Lancel, Osney and Tanda. Tanda? :shocked: Tanda is Lolys Stokeworths mother... I think you mean Taena here. Unless Cersei has been getting up to some truly shocking sexual behavior that i'm not aware of yet... :laugh: Regardless, Cersei's sex with Taena went on after she had broken up with Jaime. She slept with one of the Kettleblacks to manipulate him (she actually loathed sleeping with the Kettleblacks, but felt it was the best way to bind them to her) and with Lancel to "reward" him to sleep with Robert (and out of loneliness.) I'd argue that this does not really "prove" that Cersei is an evil bitch or has no feelings for Jaime. She clearly views sex in mercenary terms, which is a little sad. Jaime and Cersei's relationship was a mutually destructive, mutually sick, and mutually "loving" passion. Both claimed to love each other and did care for each other in a way; both are essientially selfish people unwilling to make true sacrifices for the other. Cersei "cheats on" Jaime; he abandons her when she needs him most out of anger at her infidelity. She has not lived up to his precocieved fantasy of her and he dumps her when she needs him most. Jaime is certainly self sacrificing (giving up "everything" for Cersei as he thinks self righteously, even though "everything" he's given up is basically stuff he's never wanted (land and a lordship) and he basically had dreamed of being a knight his entire life) when he has the idea of Cersei that he loves in his head. He "gives everything for her," however, his sexual fidelity and other things are things Jaime chooses to do. He has a beautiful vision of "himself as the warrior and Cersei as the maiden." However, the moment this little fantasy is broken, he abandons Cersei when she needs him most. The really disturbing thing for me was that he knew well of her cruelty, yet this was not in any way a dealbreaker for him. Her sexual infidelity was. I'm not judging Cersei for sleeping around. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm judging her for proclaiming to "love" Jaime and then sleeping with Lancel, Osney and Tanda.I would argue that by placing Cersei's sexual manipulations beside her actual heinous deeds, one mitigates the truly bad deeds by focusing on rather insignificant issues. Cersei has murdered people and thrown them to a torturer for performing a puppet show. That is what should be focused on, not that she used sex to manipulate people. You might think her some misunderstood feminist heroine, Queen Cersei I, but she sets back the feminist cause 50 years, IMO. I don't understand why you don't see that.I have never claimed this. I have claimed that Cersei took some rights for herself that could be seen as "feminist"-- i.e., choosing the father of her own children, choosing not to have babies she didn't want to. However, Cersei's misogyny has been noted by me before. Also, I've never made any effort to defend her acts of murder, torture, or infanticide. I think some posters are speaking of me when they say, "some people defend Cersei for everything". However, the only things i've ever defended her for are a. sleeping with guys to get ahead-- not wise, but not evil; b. chosing not to have Robert's baby, considering Robert's horrible treatment of her. I don't see this as evil, since we don't live in Westeros. As for the idea that she "puts the woman's movement back 50 years," that's sort of ridiculous. Because one "evil" woman reflects on an entire gender... because why? "The things I do for love ..." Only Cersei does not think about having to do it with disgust. Actually, while Jaime is made to be a far more likable character, it was him and him alone who chose to throw Bran here. The idea that "Cersei actually pressured him," is fine, I guess, but it goes directly against the text. Cersei told Jaime that she didn't want to have him throw Bran, and thinks to herself in AFFC that she thought Jaime was idiotic to do so makes the idea that Cersei wanted Jaime to throw Bran rather weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Cersei I Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Neither of them seem to have what I'd say a healthy view on love and sex. Exactly. My point was that it was a mutually sick relationship; a crutch, a mutual dependency. When Jaime kills the king and loses all his ideals at the age of 17 and is shunned by the people he takes refusge in an obsessive relationship with his sister based significantly in fantasy, with Cersei as the maiden and himself as her white knight. In the beginning of the books it is hinted that he feels jealous of his own children for the place they hold in Cersei's affections. "If I were a woman, I would be Cersei," he thinks at one point (and Cersei echoes the same sentiment in AFFC, though by then we can see that it is not true.)Cersei was disappointed in her marriage, so took refuge in Jaime. He played the husband in some cases where Robert failed to turn up-- for instance, he was at Cersei's side while Robert went off hunting. Cersei turns to Jaime and expects everything for him, and is sure that no matter what, he is the one person who will come through for her. "Not Jaime, not with my life at stake", she thinks to herself in AFFC.Yes, mutual dependence and mutual obsession would be a good term for it.My point was that, despite Jaime being (compared to Cersei) the more moral of the two, I cannot see Jaime as the good, true, pure and selfless lover, Cersei as the bitch who unspeakably betrayed him. IMO, Jaime was not a true, pure, selfless lover. It seems to me that Jaime's "love" for Cersei was better summarized by an earlier poster when he said, "unfortunately, Jaime seems to be addicted to fucking his sister."This is simplifying the whole thing a bit too much, of course. But it hits on an essiential truth about the relationship-- like any addiction, Jaime's feelings for his sister are obsessive, unhealthy, consuming, irrational, and ultimately, selfish. His near obsessive repetition of "she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and moonboy too for all I know" is a good illustration of his fundamental imbalance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salt Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Jaime was trying to protect the readers from Bran and his boring PoVĀ“s, sadly he failed So Jaime really does love as after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Regardless, Cersei's sex with Taena went on after she had broken up with Jaime. She slept with one of the Kettleblacks to manipulate him (she actually loathed sleeping with the Kettleblacks, but felt it was the best way to bind them to her) and with Lancel to "reward" him to sleep with Robert (and out of loneliness.) That is perhaps the saddest thing I've read about Cersei. Wow. Christ, someone really fucked her up in terms of sex and self-esteem, and hell, judging others.The really disturbing thing for me was that he knew well of her cruelty, yet this was not in any way a dealbreaker for him. Her sexual infidelity was. And? Some people are like that, fucked up that is. He's a warrior, he kills people, that kind of crap won't get to him because he does it. But when you give up all claim to your ancestral home and birthright and forego sex with any other woman I guess you can expect a bit of fidelity. Especially when the only good excuse for infidelity is dead (assuming of course, they didn't have an open relationship). However, the moment this little fantasy is broken, he abandons Cersei when she needs him most\No one has quite told me what he was supposed to do about this.With his single hand.Exactly. My point was that it was a mutually sick relationship; a crutch, a mutual dependency. When Jaime kills the king and loses all his ideals at the age of 17 and is shunned by the people he takes refusge in an obsessive relationship with his sister based significantly in fantasy, with Cersei as the maiden and himself as her white knight. In the beginning of the books it is hinted that he feels jealous of his own children for the place they hold in Cersei's affections. "If I were a woman, I would be Cersei," he thinks at one point (and Cersei echoes the same sentiment in AFFC, though by then we can see that it is not true.)They are both terrible narcissists, in a terrible relationship. Kinda sad really, they seemed to start out just fine.But back on topic: āFather, I am sorry,ā Cersei said, when the door was shut. āJoff has always been willful, I did warn you . . . āāThere is a long leagueās worth of difference between willful and stupid. āA strong king acts boldly?ā Who told him that?āāNot me, I promise you,ā said Cersei. āMost like it was something he heard Robert say . . . āāThe part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert.ā Tyrion didnāt want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.āYes, I recall now,ā Cersei said, āRobert often told Joff that a king must be bold.āThis has always been hilarious to me. I don't know if she's lying or telling the truth but it just comes off as childish, the way a younger sister would blame a brother when something went wrong. Her desperately trying to justify herself to Tywin simultaneously made me cringe and smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 That is perhaps the saddest thing I've read about Cersei. Wow. Christ, someone really fucked her up in terms of sex and self-esteem, and hell, judging others.And? Some people are like that, fucked up that is. He's a warrior, he kills people, that kind of crap won't get to him because he does it. But when you give up all claim to your ancestral home and birthright and forego sex with any other woman I guess you can expect a bit of fidelity. Especially when the only good excuse for infidelity is dead (assuming of course, they didn't have an open relationship).\No one has quite told me what he was supposed to do about this.With his single hand.They are both terrible narcissists, in a terrible relationship. Kinda sad really, they seemed to start out just fine.But back on topic:This has always been hilarious to me. I don't know if she's lying or telling the truth but it just comes off as childish, the way a younger sister would blame a brother when something went wrong. Her desperately trying to justify herself to Tywin simultaneously made me cringe and smile.That pretty much sums Cersei up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwisp Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Even as a child Cersei was a brat, she got raving mad at the old hag who foretold her future and it wasn't what she wanted to hear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitao Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Jaime was trying to protect the readers from Bran and his boring PoVĀ“s, sadly he failedNot entirely. The 8-year-old would have been much more boring had he not crippled him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 No one has quite told me what he was supposed to do about this.With his single hand.He's a member of the KG,sworn to protect the Royal family, if nothing else, he's breaking his oaths again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serie Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Not entirely. The 8-year-old would have been much more boring had he not crippled him.yes, long live Jaime for helping Bran open his third eye.... :ack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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