POV in ADWD is gay?

[femfatalatron]

I would be all for some gay male action described in the same level of objectifying detail that GRRM devotes to Dany or Arianne. HBO got that one right, at least.

Honestly, @CrypticWeirwood, I don't care if it's men or women involved. If you're sleeping with someone cuz you're really horny and they're the only person available, that doesn't actually say much about your *preferences*, and that's what makes someone straight/gay/bi.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

Ah yes! For who can forget the immortal scene where Dany, Sansa, and Arrianne all participated in a pillow fight clad only in skimpy smallclothes, then proceeded to have the ultimate wet t-shirt contest, and then proceeded to participate in a graphic 3 way? Only to end in frustration and misery for all of them, for no woman can satisfy a woman the way a penis man can. It is known.

Seriously, Dany's little bisexual romp was very much based in male fantasy, complete with the gratuitous descriptions of "wet" and "hardened" and "engorged" body parts and graphic girl on girl followed by the inevitable realization that only a man can truly satisfy a woman, fun as wanking one's friends and servants can be.

Anyway, Jon C. was gay, what with his dreams of his "silver prince" and watching the sunsets and what not. However, I think it's hilarious that we didn't get even one slightly erotic fantasy from the overtly gay Jon, whilst we got two graphically described lesbian trysts from two clearly straight female characters.

I agree with your post except for the last part, a bit. I don't really see how a gay sex fantasy could be written because the sentiments JC had were obviously not mutual, maybe if he had sex with a Lysene pleasure boy and he fantasized about rhaegar. I doubt we should/could get a scene where he jacks it a-la-Tyrion thinking of someone, JC doesn't strike me as someone who would do that.

Good points on Dany though, I don't see what all the labeling here is for

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Seriously, Dany's little bisexual romp was very much based in male fantasy, complete with the gratuitous descriptions of "wet" and "hardened" and "engorged" body parts and graphic girl on girl followed by the inevitable realization that only a man can truly satisfy a woman, fun as wanking one's friends and servants can be.

Uh, if you're a straight woman, like Dany, then yeah, only a man will do. Just like I wouldn't expect a lesbian to be sexually satisfied by a man, or a gay man to be satisfied by a woman.

Honestly, does everything have to be a gender battle? Is EVERYTHING evil patriarchy and women getting put down and sexual gratuitousness to you? Doesn't it get exhausting?

[Howling Mad]

Doesn't it get exhausting?

To read about - yes

[teemo]

I dislike the fact that GRRM appears to be reinforcing the idea that two same sex people can't be incredibly close and love each other without being homosexual.

Oh well, not a big deal or anything.

Yeah, right? Jon and Sam are obviously gay...Ned and Robert...Davos and Stannis....Tyrion and Jaime.....Bran and Hodor...Ned and Jon Arryn....they are all just SO gay!!!

[Queen Cersei I]

what???? no!!! didn't see that coming.... not that it matters anyway.

He may wear all the myrish lace he wants, as long as he feels good with it, I'm fine with it!

Yeah, I think it was so subtle as to be almost totally unapparent to 99.999 percent of readers. However, GRRM has noted in an interview that Jon C was definitely gay and that he definitely had a thing for Rhaegar.

I would have thought it was just a close guy friendship, however, a few things stood out:

1. At one point, Jon thinks of all he is avenging and he thinks, "And Rhaegar. My silver prince." Not exactly a "OMG, Jon is gay!" flashing in giant florescent lighting moment, however, it seemed like a bit of a strange thing for a guy to think about his friend. (Although we did have Ned reflecting that Robert was "Muscled like a maiden's fantasy" :eek: in book one.) I went back and read it a few times, just to be sure I'd read it correctly.

2. Jon also thinks how he wants to "win Rheagar's love." I think he reflects on this sentiment twice. He wanted to win the battle of the bells for this purpose, and this was part of his fantasy. Again, not really definitive in itself, but...

3. Rhaegar seems to exhibit some jealousy of Elia, reflecting bitterly on how "she was never worthy of him."

4. Memories featuring them had a slightly romantic feel from Jon's perspective, like him trying to impress Rheagar by telling him about his inheritance, the two watching the sunset together... this sensibility is hard to describe, but it felt like it was there throughout all of Jon's recollections of Rhaegar. On the surface, it's "big deal, so he remembers watching the sunset with his friend." However, if you read the scene itself closely, it has a rather sentimental tone; a memory Jon has probably recollected over and over again, agonized over, treasured.

So I suspected Jon might have had a thing for Rheagar, but it was (as you note) so subtle as to be almost indistinguishable.

Overall, I'd have to agree with one poster who dubbed it thus: Jon C. is not gay, he's more like "Rhaegar sexual."

[Queen Cersei I]

Uh, if you're a straight woman, like Dany, then yeah, only a man will do. Just like I wouldn't expect a lesbian to be sexually satisfied by a man, or a gay man to be satisfied by a woman.

Honestly, does everything have to be a gender battle? Is EVERYTHING evil patriarchy and women getting put down and sexual gratuitousness to you? Doesn't it get exhausting?

Erm... okay. I'm not sure when I implied that anything here was "a gender battle" or even mentioned "the patriarchy" or "women getting put down". Noting that Danerys (who is, as you mention in your post, a straight woman-- or "a straight woman,) suddenly feeling the urge to "experiment" with her female servant was a little bit thrown in. I simply felt that Danys gratuitous lesbian scene felt a little thrown in and colored by male fantasy. And that is by no means an unusual sentiment on my part. I've heard from a few others who think the same.

My point was not to ignite a "gender battle." It was that these books seem a little more eager to add in some lesbian scenes which have a strong whiff of male fantasy in them, while shying away from any explicit action featuring guys on guys.

[Queen Cersei I]

To read about - yes

Okay... but how were my arguments inappropriate or exhuasting? They are on the previous page, if you want to look at them again. I simply noted that I would not characterize Dany as bisexual, since her experimentation with her serving maid was not due to sexual attraction to a female on her part. I also noted that this scene felt a bit thrown in and contrived.

I also noted that we have gotten plenty of gay male characters, and no hints of gay sex, while we've gotten two utterly straight women experimenting with their hot female servants or friends.

All a coinicidence, I'm sure, but it was interesting how Jon, whom the author noted was supposed to be overtly gay, didn't so much as check out a guy or fantasize the slightest bit about Rhaegar or anyone else. Not a huge issue, but interesting. Still, I guess real lesbian sex hasn't been represented any more than gay sex, since the girl on girl scenes we've seen thus far are inevitably females experimenting with each other.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Erm... okay. I'm not sure when I implied that anything here was "a gender battle" or even mentioned "the patriarchy" or "women getting put down". Noting that Danerys (who is, as you mention in your post, a straight woman-- or "a straight woman,) suddenly feeling the urge to "experiment" with her female servant was a little bit thrown in. I simply felt that Danys gratuitous lesbian scene felt a little thrown in and colored by male fantasy. And that is by no means an unusual sentiment on my part. I've heard from a few others who think the same.

My point was not to ignite a "gender battle." It was that these books seem a little more eager to add in some lesbian scenes which have a strong whiff of male fantasy in them, while shying away from any explicit action featuring guys on guys.

"Followed by the inevitable realisation that only a man can truly satisfy a woman." It's all in your tone. Everything you write seems to have a negative vibe. It comes across as you suggesting that GRRM is saying that of course a woman is incapable of sexually pleasing another woman, because she isn't a man, and therefore unequal.

[Howling Mad]

Okay... but how were my arguments inappropriate or exhuasting?

Your analysis is fine I just find the neverending discussion of sexuality (male,femal, both, neither) exhausting. I thoroughly enjoy ASOIAF and GRRM's narrative. TBPH I could live without all of the explicit sex scenes in the books and on HBO, YMMV.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

"Followed by the inevitable realisation that only a man can truly satisfy a woman." It's all in your tone. Everything you write seems to have a negative vibe. It comes across as you suggesting that GRRM is saying that of course a woman is incapable of sexually pleasing another woman, because she isn't a man, and therefore unequal.

Your analysis is fine I just find the neverending discussion of sexuality (male,femal, both, neither) exhausting. I thoroughly enjoy ASOIAF and GRRM's narrative. TBPH I could live without all of the explicit sex scenes in the books and on HBO, YMMV.

Bingo.

[Queen Cersei I]

"Followed by the inevitable realisation that only a man can truly satisfy a woman." It's all in your tone. Everything you write seems to have a negative vibe. It comes across as you suggesting that GRRM is saying that of course a woman is incapable of sexually pleasing another woman, because she isn't a man, and therefore unequal.

LOL. No, I was not talking about gender inequality in the least. I was both critisizing the idea that Dany was "bisexual" as slightly ridiculous, and pointing out the widely held male fears and fantasies at play in both Dany and Cersei's girl on girl scenes, which, yes, especially in Dany's case, felt rather thrown in. However, I'm not really sure how this became a major issue... my post was very much tongue in cheek.

Lately there's been a lot of people going around complaining that some people are "ruining everything with complaints about domestic violence, etc." I disagree, and actually think random attacks like Apple's are more to blame for creating a tense atmosphere and killing a lot of fun.

Anyway, while hot girl on girl scenes are a pretty common heterosexual male fetish, it's also somewhat common for some guys to feel threatened by straight up lesbians, who can get off without help from any guys. Dany's luciously described lesbian tryst followed by her confident asserition that no one could satisfy her as Drogo or Daario could did savor a bit of a conclusion to a male fantasy with an assurance that penis was still number one.

Oh well. This thread got totally off topic, and I'm definitely not going to comment on the female vs.male homosexuality in these books.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not attacking you, I'm just pointing out what seems to be an ubiquitous "theme" to your posts, and how almost all of them focus on some sort of gender inequality, criticism of patriarchy, or what have you. That you just kind of laugh it off as if it's not the case is ... weird, but whatever.

[Queen Cersei I]

Your analysis is fine I just find the neverending discussion of sexuality (male,femal, both, neither) exhausting. I thoroughly enjoy ASOIAF and GRRM's narrative. TBPH I could live without all of the explicit sex scenes in the books and on HBO, YMMV.

You think I discuss sexuality too much? Huh. I wasn't really aware of this-- I understand where the gender hang up criticisms are coming from, though honestly my post was meant to be tongue in cheek, and arose from amusement that anyone would characterize Dany as "bisexual" :dunno:

As for the sex in the books, I agree with you to a point, however, in some instances I think they are meant to tell us more about the character.

Re the sex in the tv series-- could not agree more. I'm no prude, but often the sex on the show (especially this season) seems not only unnecessary and random, but downright counterproductive and distracting to the story they're trying to actually tell.

[Ser Hippie]

Given that the topic is about Jon Connington being gay, it seems sort of logical that posts analyzing him would reference gender or sexual orientation (both in-story and from a meta point of view). I'm vaguely aware that this back and forth started in other topics but I actually think the comparison between the two lesbian scenes and the representation of Connington's love for Rheagar is worth making (just not by me :P). The Dany scene struck me as somewhat gratuitous; the Cersei scene obviously emphasized several unpleasant aspects of her personality but I'm not entirely sure it was necessary either (her PoV chapters are pretty full of "becoming like Robert", "wants to be in a position of power", etc.).

I'm not convinced this dichotomy was by design necessarily (Connington is reminiscing on someone he loved nearly two decades ago, and we don't know if Rhaegar meant that much to him). Loras/Renly is kept low-key for obvious reasons, Oberyn's bisexuality is also underplayed for in-universe reasons...not sure what other useful examples there are though.

[Howling Mad]

You think I discuss sexuality too much? Huh. I wasn't really aware of this-- I understand where the gender hang up criticisms are coming from, though honestly my post was meant to be tongue in cheek, and arose from amusement that anyone would characterize Dany as "bisexual" :dunno:

As for the sex in the books, I agree with you to a point, however, in some instances I think they are meant to tell us more about the character.

Re the sex in the tv series-- could not agree more. I'm no prude, but often the sex on the show (especially this season) seems not only unnecessary and random, but downright counterproductive and distracting to the story they're trying to actually tell.

I didn't mean to call you out, my comment was meant to apply broadly to the threads in general. B)

[Lyanna Stark]

I didn't mean to call you out, my comment was meant to apply broadly to the threads in general. B)

Not all readers think ASOIAF should be simply escapist. Overall, there are lots of SFF readers who don't read SFF for the escapist quality. Some do, and it's natural that the ones who are more interested in other facets than the escapist ones are also more keen on analysing the work from different angles. That's what the board is for. Since ASOIAF has a lot of sex in it, it seems only natural this gets discussed a lot, too.

Yeah, I think it was so subtle as to be almost totally unapparent to 99.999 percent of readers. However, GRRM has noted in an interview that Jon C was definitely gay and that he definitely had a thing for Rhaegar.

I thought that was pretty clear in the text that Jon Connington definitely had a crush on Rhaegar. His whole chapter where he reflects on Rhaegar on the battlements is filled with such strong longing it could hardly have been something else. It also explains why he would dedicated his life to "Aegon" if he thought he was Rhaegar's son.

(Although we did have Ned reflecting that Robert was "Muscled like a maiden's fantasy" :eek: in book one.) I went back and read it a few times, just to be sure I'd read it correctly.

Yes, he does! I always felt Ned was very much aware he was the average looking out of him and Robert, that Robert was taller, heavier muscled etc. I think Cat remembers she was initially disappointed that she had to marry Ned instead of Brandon and parts of that was because Brandon was simply more good looking. Doesn't Ned comment on Sandor Clegane in vaguely similar fashion ("muscled like a bull") at some point as well? Maybe at the Hand's tourney?

Maybe Ned had a bit of a complex thing going on? Especially considering Brandon Stark looked more like Robert, while Ned was forever the smaller, younger brother.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Not all readers think ASOIAF should be simply escapist. Overall, there are lots of SFF readers who don't read SFF for the escapist quality. Some do, and it's natural that the ones who are more interested in other facets than the escapist ones are also more keen on analysing the work from different angles. That's what the board is for. Since ASOIAF has a lot of sex in it, it seems only natural this gets discussed a lot, too.

I thought that was pretty clear in the text that Jon Connington definitely had a crush on Rhaegar. His whole chapter where he reflects on Rhaegar on the battlements is filled with such strong longing it could hardly have been something else. It also explains why he would dedicated his life to "Aegon" if he thought he was Rhaegar's son.

Yes, he does! I always felt Ned was very much aware he was the average looking out of him and Robert, that Robert was taller, heavier muscled etc. I think Cat remembers she was initially disappointed that she had to marry Ned instead of Brandon and parts of that was because Brandon was simply more good looking. Doesn't Ned comment on Sandor Clegane in vaguely similar fashion ("muscled like a bull") at some point as well? Maybe at the Hand's tourney?

Maybe Ned had a bit of a complex thing going on? Especially considering Brandon Stark looked more like Robert, while Ned was forever the smaller, younger brother.

I think it's a possibility. Ned has always had a big brother figure growing up, either with Brandon or Robert. He was also described as either the shy or the quiet wolf in the Reed's story as well. It seems to be a personality trait that he'd view these bigger stronger guys with a sense of envy. Hell, every time I see a guy in great shape it makes me wish I wasn't too lazy to work out haha. It's the reason advertising works so well.

[Dr. Pepper]

Yes, he does! I always felt Ned was very much aware he was the average looking out of him and Robert, that Robert was taller, heavier muscled etc. I think Cat remembers she was initially disappointed that she had to marry Ned instead of Brandon and parts of that was because Brandon was simply more good looking. Doesn't Ned comment on Sandor Clegane in vaguely similar fashion ("muscled like a bull") at some point as well? Maybe at the Hand's tourney?

Maybe Ned had a bit of a complex thing going on? Especially considering Brandon Stark looked more like Robert, while Ned was forever the smaller, younger brother.

Not so dissimilar to a woman critiquing another woman. I'll admit that when I'm around my sisters or friends, I have a bit of, "She's slender as a model," or "Her breasts are better than mine" type of commentary going on in my head. I refuse to believe that men don't critique one another in the same way.

[Lyanna Stark]

Not so dissimilar to a woman critiquing another woman. I'll admit that when I'm around my sisters or friends, I have a bit of, "She's slender as a model," or "Her breasts are better than mine" type of commentary going on in my head. I refuse to believe that men don't critique one another in the same way.

Oh I don't disagree with you, especially if as, which is possible with Ned, he's always felt a bit at a disadvantage compared to Robert and his brother Brandon. I don't know if we ever get a description of how Ned looks actually, maybe somewhere in early AGOT? As far as I can remember there are some oblique references to that he's got dark hair and grey eyes and from Cat that she was disappointed at first since his brother Brandon was more handsome (and as I understood it, taller as well, but that may be a misunderstanding?), plus Ned was the "shy wolf" supposedly, so not exactly a forward type of person.