Targaryen Question - Ruling Queens

[Dragonfish]

I found this in the Citadel:

http://www.westeros....CA_July_20_232/

It just says "all men." Not "all men except in the female line" or "uncles before sisters, but not cousins before sisters" or whatever.

I think it's a mistake and they meant to say Viserys II, who was Aegon III's brother and became king after Daeron I and Baelor I died. Viserys I was Aegon III and Viserys II's grandfather.

Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for.

And yes, I think it's pretty clear they were referring to Viserys II rather than Viserys I, as it was Viserys II who was changed from a son to a brother of Aegon III.

[ARYa_Nym]

Dany can get around this problem if she marries a son of Rhaegar. :) :devil:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany can get around this problem if she marries a son of Rhaegar. :) :devil:

Please no. Why do people actually want this to happen? :dunno:

[ARYa_Nym]

Please no. Why do people actually want this to happen? :dunno:

I didn't want it to at first but I accepted it.& I'm not making it up out of thin air. The theories of Jon/Dany are even on the citadel page.

It makes sense. She needs a son of Rhaegar unless all the male claimants die and he has no proof that he's Rhaegar's son. The people who do know are irrelevant nobodies and Bran/BR are greenseers who at this stage are never leaving that cave.

If there's proof in the crypts I'm not sure. What could it be? A letter won't do anything as we saw with Ned and Robert's will.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I didn't want it to at first but I accepted it.& I'm not making it up out of thin air. The theories of Jon/Dany are even on the citadel page.

It makes sense. She needs a son of Rhaegar unless all the male claimants die and he has no proof that he's Rhaegar's son. The people who do know are irrelevant nobodies and Bran/BR are greenseers who at this stage are never leaving that cave.

If there's proof in the crypts I'm not sure. What could it be? A letter won't do anything as we saw with Ned and Robert's will.

I know it's not out of thin air, but that doesn't mean it's a believable or desirable ending or that I or anyone else has to like it if it happens. Considering that they each have a type and the other is not it, I can't see how it would happen in any way that wasn't eye-roll-inducing. You also assume that Jon would even want the Iron Throne such that he'd marry Dany for it or allow her to marry him for it. It's too cute, too neat, too cliched and I hope to hell it either doesn't happen or doesn't last.

[ARYa_Nym]

I know it's not out of thin air, but that doesn't mean it's a believable or desirable ending or that I or anyone else has to like it if it happens. Considering that they each have a type and the other is not it, I can't see how it would happen in any way that wasn't eye-roll-inducing. You also assume that Jon would even want the Iron Throne such that he'd marry Dany for it or allow her to marry him for it. It's too cute, too neat, too cliched and I hope to hell it either doesn't happen or doesn't last.

Nothing lasts if we even look at the model asoiaf relationship Ned/Cat. That ended in tragedy. It doesn't matter so long as they provide heirs and continue the line.

I don't think Jon will be the same after ADWD's events. Even so he said that he wanted to be a conqueror like Daeron I. He has dreamed of glory himself. He did not dream of the iron throne in particular but that could change when he learns that he has a claim.

As for being each others type Dany is young. She likes the barbarian type because that's what she's been exposed to via Drogo. She doesn't know real love yet. & teenage girls type matures as they get older.

Jon likes self-sufficient warrior women. Dany will eventually ride a dragon into battle as we know through her dream of the Trident like her ancestors. & there's the line where Val's hair was likened to Dany so I think that was foreshadowing.

It may not be a perfect match but there are very few asoiaf true love matches as it is and they usually don't end well. For political purposes this match makes sense.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just ... no. I'm sorry you jumped off that cliff, but I'm not buying it. I'd like something more for Jon than a political sham marriage.

Actively seeking the Iron Throne just isn't in Jon's character. I can't imagine him ever being proactive where it's concerned, even if he learns who his parents are. He wanted to be Daeron I, yeah ... until he grew up and realized that warfare isn't as glorious as it's cracked up to be. That kind of fantasy is in his immature past, not his future.

[Queen Cersei I]

Please no. Why do people actually want this to happen? :dunno:

Two rather cliched Mary Sueish characters naturally belong together/ deserve each other, and should spend the rest of their lives having blandly perfect/ heroic children?

Just ... no. I'm sorry you jumped off that cliff, but I'm not buying it. I'd like something more for Jon than a political sham marriage.

Actively seeking the Iron Throne just isn't in Jon's character. I can't imagine him ever being proactive where it's concerned, even if he learns who his parents are. He wanted to be Daeron I, yeah ... until he grew up and realized that warfare isn't as glorious as it's cracked up to be. That kind of fantasy is in his immature past, not his future.

Really? What if:

a. His recent near death experience and shocking betrayal by his fellow members of the nightwatch leads him to question everything he's come to believe/ follow, and he becomes more ruthless, more ambitious, or both?

b. He is some way alienated by Stannis, by the latter doing something horiffically morally wrong/ unspeakable (burning shireen?)

c. He ends up finding out about his heritage and comes to genuinely believe that he is the best candidate for the crown, and should seize it for the good of Westeros?

d. He grows or develops in any signficant way in future books?

[ARYa_Nym]

Just ... no. I'm sorry you jumped off that cliff, but I'm not buying it. I'd like something more for Jon than a political sham marriage.

Actively seeking the Iron Throne just isn't in Jon's character. I can't imagine him ever being proactive where it's concerned, even if he learns who his parents are. He wanted to be Daeron I, yeah ... until he grew up and realized that warfare isn't as glorious as it's cracked up to be. That kind of fantasy is in his immature past, not his future.

Jon already had the option of a political sham marriage with Val and almost took it but he didn't. Winterfell is not for him.

& it's likely that they will fall in love given the mount to love part but it may end in tragedy.

He brought it Daeron I again in ADWD so it's still in his mind but he has learned how hard it is. As I said it's likely that Jon's character will change after ADWD. He was already changing in ADWD.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon already had the option of a political sham marriage with Val and almost took it but he didn't. Winterfell is not for him.

Except he's actually attracted to Val and it seems like it's reciprocated. Why shouldn't he (and Dany too, I guess) have the chance to be with someone he actually likes? Winterfell was not for him because 1. it came from Stannis when it wasn't Stannis' to give, and 2. the offer required him to relinquish his family's gods.

I just don't see him on the Iron Throne, sorry. I think he'll either stay on the Wall or take up a leadership position that's strictly in the North.

ETA: Anyway, the point of this thread is discussing Targ queens and it looks like Martin's SSM says that all male heirs means all male heirs. Surely that development is good for a 1,000-word essay about patriarchal vitriol and vitriolic patriarchy.

[ARYa_Nym]

Except he's actually attracted to Val and it seems like it's reciprocated. Why shouldn't he (and Dany too, I guess) have the chance to be with someone he actually likes? Winterfell was not for him because 1. it came from Stannis when it wasn't Stannis' to give, and 2. the offer required him to relinquish his family's gods.

I just don't see him on the Iron Throne, sorry. I think he'll either stay on the Wall or take up a leadership position that's strictly in the North.

I doubt it was reciprocated in ASOS. They didn't know each other then. Val and Jon got to know each other in ADWD. He said that Ygritte would have made the choice even easier because he knew her but Val could give him a son and she was pretty. Val was a hostage and I doubt she would want to be handed off to someone she barely knew because of Stannis.

He may not even get on the iron throne. Jon and Dany may marry but their child may be the one who gets the throne. If we look at the first Dance of the Dragons the person who got the throne,Aegon III, didn't necessarily want it but he was the one that was left because the other two claimants died.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm done talking about Jon and Dany's vomit-inducing Disney marriage. It's off-topic.

[chris999]

I think that there was a girl that was supposed to be the queen a long time ago, but her younger brother had his dragon eat her.

Maybe it was a nephew, not sure without lookig it up, but either way, the short answer is no. No ruling Queens.

[Daena the Defiant]

I'm done talking about Jon and Dany's vomit-inducing Disney marriage. It's off-topic.

It would only be a Disney marriage if Ghost gives grandfatherly advice in a harsh Scottish burl, and Dany's dragons sing exagerated choruses to punctuate her various activities.

[oba]

It would only be a Disney marriage if Ghost gives grandfatherly advice in a harsh Scottish burl, and Dany's dragons sing exagerated choruses to punctuate her various activities.

Yep, we learn that the "Song of Ice and Fire" is literally a song.

Coda

Preaching to the choir,

Baelish is a liar,

Song of Ice and Fire

(Ghost howls, Drogon roars, Children of the Forest dance gaily)

Finis

[The guy from the Vale]

While I wouldn't like a Disney-style marriage between Dany and Jon, I can still see it happen at some point, minus the Disney part. Imagine Dany and Jon hating each other, but being forced to marry because they need to unite the realm against the Others, and see no other way. Or them even loving each other (the House of the Undying hints at Jon twice while mentioning love), but Dany dying in childbirth. Or... well, countless possibilities there. I agree that straight up, the idea is vomit-inducing. But when has GRRM sold us such stories in a straight-up manner?

[tze]

http://www.westeros....CA_July_20_232/

It just says "all men." Not "all men except in the female line" or "uncles before sisters, but not cousins before sisters" or whatever.

Very interesting---I'd never seen that specific SSM before, just the claim on the wiki (coupled with the various precedents that implied this).

Didn't Elaena Targaryen marry a Plumm? I could have sworn I read that somewhere. If she did . . . there's actually a chance (not what anyone would consider a large chance, but still) that, under the same framework Dany's using to justify her claim, Brown Ben "I Have A Drop of Dragon In Me" Plumm might actually have a better claim to the Iron Throne that Dany herself, because if a daughter really did come before other male claimants, as Dany intends, then Aegon IV's whole line would automatically be considered usurpers, with either the line specifically of Daena (hello, Blackfyres!) or, given that Rhaena became a septa, Elaena (House Plumm, IIRC) automatically coming before Dany's own line (via Aegon IV and Naerys). I find that kind of hilarious.

The male Blackfyres themselves might have a better claim, even under existing Targaryen rules and precedents, than any daughter of Aerys II, so even if Aegon is really a Blackfyre, he might still technically come before Dany. Hell, Aegon IV had a huge number of bastards, and legitimized them all on his deathbed. If any of them married and had kids, and those kids had kids . . . there are probably hundreds and hundreds of men out there with actual, though probably unproveable, claims to the Iron Throne that would technically supercede Dany's.

What I also find fascinating is that if Bloodraven gets his skinny ass out of that tree and declares the Old Gods have freed him of his NW vows (and hey, who's going to contradict a greenseer there?), his "claim" would probably trump Dany's as well. As a legitimized Targaryen bastard, a man, and Dany's uncle (granted, there are a few "greats" stuck in there), any rule that puts "all men" before a woman, with multiple precedents for uncles coming before daughters, would technically fit him.

And none of that even brings in the Stannis issue.

[Winter's Knight]

Legitimised bastards still come after true-borns though.

[The guy from the Vale]

Legitimised bastards still come after true-borns though.

But we don't know which rule is stronger, the 'women last' rule or the 'legitimized bastards last' rule. So at best, Dany has a better claim than the Blackfyres, but not Stannis; that is, if we interpret the 'women last' rule such that men can still inherit through the female line (which I doubt. But there's an argument for that interpretation, and we could spend a lot of cyber-ink on the legalese of that question...).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Legitimised bastards still come after true-borns though.

Yes, this is technically true.

But that doesn't knock out Stannis' claim, or the Martells'. Quentyn Martell could have had a better claim than Dany. The hilarity. And, barring a real Aegon or someone spilling the beans on Jon, Stannis is actually the "rightful heir" to both dynasties. So all of the arguing over the Targs and Baratheons and which one is the legit house is moot, because it'd still come down to the same guy. The same guy who's still alive after all of the other "five" kings are dead, in a society that superstitiously suggests that the gods favor the righteous and/or innocent.

... if we interpret the 'women last' rule such that men can still inherit through the female line (which I doubt. But there's an argument for that interpretation, and we could spend a lot of cyber-ink on the legalese of that question...).

The SSM didn't make any difference between male-line males and female-line males. It was "all males in the Targaryen succession."