Sansa and LF's land grab!

[Lummel]

There have been plenty of Hands of Littlefinger's social level like Chelstead and Merryweather, not to mention Septon Barth who was of a lot lower social standing.

Sure I take your point about having access to the army of the Vale and I agree if used judicially it could tip the balance of power - but what does he gain from that? A chance of his old job back perhaps? That's why I think of him more as an opportunist than a schemer, I suspect he'll try to take advantage of events as they occur but I don't think he has a plan to take him anywhere in particular.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

There have been plenty of Hands of Littlefinger's social level like Chelstead and Merryweather, not to mention Septon Barth who was of a lot lower social standing.

Sure I take your point about having access to the army of the Vale and I agree if used judicially it could tip the balance of power - but what does he gain from that? A chance of his old job back perhaps? That's why I think of him more as an opportunist than a schemer, I suspect he'll try to take advantage of events as they occur but I don't think he has a plan to take him anywhere in particular.

At the very least, he would have the Vale - and all attendant incomes. 'Nuff said.

[Lummel]

But he doesn't, Sweetrobin has the Vale and Harry is his heir. Littlefinger only has power over the Vale's resources in so far as he is able to persuade people (by which I mean the Lords of the Vale) that using those resources is in the best interests of Sweetrobin and / or Harry.

This is the point, he hasn't gained anything, so far, in the Vale. But being there has allowed him to preserve his freedom of movement and it gives him a legitimate excuse to stay away from Kings Landing which in turn allows him to avoid being seen to take sides before he knows who is going to win control.

[Lyanna Stark]

I suppose for me I don't see any obvious ambition to rule, it's certainly not clear to me if it is possible to convert his temporary position in the Vale to something permanent or into something powerful in relation to Westeros. On the other hand in Kings Landing he had built a financial machine that was dependent on himself, he was hand of the king material, in a position to build a power base and control policy - that is power. But he seems to have given all that up for something much more uncertain.

This is true, but then he is also using his opportunity to completely destroy the Lannisters, so I agree with you so far, the man is an opportunist. However, I also think he has more long term plans, just that he is not too bothered about how he gets there and by what means.

By removing himself from Kings Landing, he is also removing himself from the "failed" rulership of Cersei and the Tyrells (because it seems likely that won't be long lasting). Instead. LF seems to be biding his time and building a "hard" powerbase for his own play for power.

Littlefinger has always relied on "soft" power, i.e. knowledge, money, enterprising, while not having any "hard" power exactly, no fancy title, no castles, no loyal bannermen, no powerful armies. With what it looks like in the Vale though, it's looking as if he is placing his puppets so that he will first be the power behind them, and if we theorise that he eventually want Sansa Stark for himself, his long term plan is definitely to set himself up as a high lord and gain that hard power he never had.

As Hand, he would be a powerful man, but his power would ultimately originate with the King and not from himself, which I think is a fact not lost on Littlefinger. He was a powerful man as the Master of Coin and obviously appreciated despite his scheming nature. However, all the council positions are really glorified public servants if you don't have your own powerbase to back them up with. It seems that to someone like Mace Tyrell, being Hand of the King is another feather in his proverbial hat and an honour, but he does not need to have it to be an important person and to have personal power. To LF, it *is* the extent of his power, which also makes his overall "clout" less than someone like Mace Tyrell's.

[Lummel]

Yes but then the only way to avoid being dependant on the power of others and working through others would be to wait until spring, recruit some henchmen and women and set off to build up his lordship in the Riverlands.

On the otherhand we know that he is competent and confident of his abilities to work through others and to control events from behind the scenes so I find the idea that he has a burning ambition to step out into the limelight unconvincing while I am convinced of his driving desire to take sexual advantage of Sansa Stark (just thinking of the way that Sansa notices him staring at her in AGOT and Cersei's revelation of his offer to marry her that comes out in ADWD) and I can see how that fits into a narrative of wanting revenge on the Starks and the Tullys and to replay the desired relationship with Catelyn with the perfect ersatz-Catelyn - her daughter (brrghh I feel I need to wash my hands after typing that).

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Fighting someone in hand-to-hand combat is and always will be viewed as more honest than poisoning due to the simple point of open-ness. If someone draws a blade on you, you at the very least know they plan to kill you. With poisoning, your killer can be smiling and acting all chummy before your insides turn to mush. And as for executions, that is a matter of justice. And, in response to your Sandor quote, just because the world is indifferent and cruel does not mean you have to be.

No. You don't have do be. And just because you are merciful and kind doesn't mean someone won't cut your head off and put it on a spike.

By all means, be strong and resourceful in order to survive, but at least make an attempt to retain some morality.

Why? What good is it? I don't have any right now and I'm fine.

That is a big portion of my bushcraft-survival classes, focusing on survival by retaining humanity.

There's nothing particularly human about morality. Other animals have systems of fairness that they apply arbitrarily and ignore when its convenient

Monkeys Show Sense Of Fairness, Study Says

Sean Markey

National Geographic News

September 17, 2003

If you expect equal pay for equal work, you're not the only species to have a sense of fair play. Blame evolution.

Researchers studying brown capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella) have found that the highly social, cooperative species native to South America show a sense of fairness, the first time such behavior has been documented in a species other than humans. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_monkeyfairness.html

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes but then the only way to avoid being dependant on the power of others and working through others would be to wait until spring, recruit some henchmen and women and set off to build up his lordship in the Riverlands.

On the otherhand we know that he is competent and confident of his abilities to work through others and to control events from behind the scenes so I find the idea that he has a burning ambition to step out into the limelight unconvincing while I am convinced of his driving desire to take sexual advantage of Sansa Stark (just thinking of the way that Sansa notices him staring at her in AGOT and Cersei's revelation of his offer to marry her that comes out in ADWD) and I can see how that fits into a narrative of wanting revenge on the Starks and the Tullys and to replay the desired relationship with Catelyn with the perfect ersatz-Catelyn - her daughter (brrghh I feel I need to wash my hands after typing that).

I don't disagree with that, but I tend to see his desire to have Sansa as something that works almost against his other goals or gaining power. It seems he's taken more risks than ever when he whisked Sansa away in order to create his ersatz-Catelyn and recreate the dream of his youth.

Littlefinger-without-Sansa I think would be perfectly happy biding his time until spring, but Littlefinger-with-Sansa has to take more risks since what he wants has changed. I don't think he had any notion of what would happen with Sansa or how he would feel about her when he set everything in motion by having Lysa murder Jon Arryn and send Cat that letter. His desire for that dream came later. Before that, he seemed to have been after power for himself.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Basically you don't like when people are attracted to others?

No. I don't care. Anymore than I care about Jeyne Poole.

Because when non-serial killers are attracted to people, they cease to be a thing, an object, they become a living thing... Now if their attraction of them never moves beyond the physical then, whilst the object of their attractions has moved up from "chair leg" in the estimation of the other person, it hasn't actually gone above "dog or kitten" when a person starts liking the interior of the other person their attraction moves beyond "dog and kitten" to "child", when the person sees the interior of the other person as equal to their own interior, the other person becomes an adult. But because Tyrion's attraction to Shae never moved beyond the physical, he never regarded her as anything more than a sort of animal that he got to sleep with... the fact that Tyrion had such a wide ranging scope of physical desires meant that he was able to see women as living things, albeit Tyrion's own hubris prevented him from seeing women as anything more than animals with whom one had sex with. When Tyrion ceased to be attracted to Shae (when she showed how little she desired him) he ceased to view her as a living thing, and thus killed her. Jaime and Cersei commit the same error: Cersei is only attracted to Jaime when he is a perfect reflection of herself, and Jaime only loves Cersei when he sees her as this sort of perfect woman. When Cersei ceases to do this, Jaime stops caring about her.

You are batshit fucking crazy (hyperbole for the purpose of demonstrating my shock) I don't like Tyrion and Littlefinger being attracted to Shae and Sansa because they could do better. I don't like Jamie being attracted to Cersei be cause she's his sister and its gross.

Funnily enough, I would rathe be married to Tyrion (although the risk would be VD and deformed children) or Randyll Tarly,

I'm sure you would. You share their backwards "a woman has her place" ideology.

because atleast a mysoginist has a use for women, in that a mysoginist can use women for sex and children. A man who simply saw women as no different than men (in that they were things to competeted with), but had no use for women as sexual beings or mothers, would be the most dangerous man of all...

Only if you're useless. The same scenario in which they would be dangerous to a man. Women are people are all and just as capable of being useful as men are.

Prideful people are fundamentally not able to move beyond seeing other people as children. A hubristic person would not be able to see people as attractive beyond the level of animals. A person who was not attracted to women or men, would have no incentive to see any person as anything other than a chair leg.

Can a chair leg come up with a cunning plan to out maneuver the Austrians and Russian in the Battle of the Three Emperors? Can a chair leg strike a beautifully curving cross?

Can a chair leg write A Game of Thrones?

The unwillingness to find other people attractive (on any level) would be both the ultimate form of hubris, and would enable a non-serial killer to act in many ways no different from a serial killer. Probably not very clear... I think morally, Petyr is no different from Tywin, and that Tyrion is only slightly better than Petyr (indeed Tyrion's capacity to feel for others-only occassionally, and generally only if they are also men, and also in a similar position, for instance Tyrion's empathy for Bran and Jon, is what separates Tyrion from Petyr). I think the difference between Ramsay and Petyr is only that of motive and degree:

I think the difference between Ramsay and everyone is only that of motive and degree

For instance Petyr is motivated by a desire to avenge himself on people who wronged him (on some petty level)

Well see here's your problem. We just disagree on what level constitutes pettiness.

I think being split open by a man twice your size and five years older than you....that your foster brother chose to squire for this stranger instead of you....that while you're drugged out of your mind, you're raped by another member of this family..... impregnating her in the process....for which you're banished to the dreariest pile of rocks in all of the Seven Kingdoms...

Is not petty. Its a valid reason to be pissed off. And Petyr didn't murder these people in their sleep by setting their bedding afire, he bested them at their own Game of Thrones. The same Game of Thrones that Petyr's presumed unsuitability for was the sole reason for his having been treated shabbily.

“Pardon me if I do not weep for you.”

“I shall, but you must pardon me if I do not weep for Shae. I confess, I do not understand what there is in her to make a clever man like you act such a fool.”

“You might, if you were not a eunuch.”

“Is that the way of it? A man may have wits, or a bit of meat between his legs, but not both?” Varys tittered.

“Perhaps I should be grateful I was cut, then.”

This could just as well apply to Petyr as it does to Varys.

“My lord, you once asked me how it was that I was cut.”

“I recall,” said Tyrion. “You did not want to talk of it.”

“Nor do I, but...” This pause was longer than the one before, and when Varys spoke again his voice was different somehow. “I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King’s Landing.

“One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me.

Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out.

When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die

.

To spite him

,

I resolved to live

. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man’s letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.

“Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer’s trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a

certainty is that he called it, and it answered,

and since that day I have hated

magic

[Aristocracy] and all those who practice it. If [a] Lord

Stannis

is one such, I mean to see him dead.”

Littlefinger is a sexual predator

I don't think he is. I don't think he has any use for women or girls, sexually or romantically except for a 15 year old Catelyn Tully who long since ceased to exist. Or had until he stumbled across Sansa at the Hand's Tourney. I think his affection is singular in nature. And far more forgivable than what Varys does to his little birds.

After all:

“The Kingslayer, yes. The oathbreaker who murdered poor sad Aerys Targaryen.” Jaime snorted. “It’s not Aerys I rue, it’s Robert. ‘I hear they’ve named you Kingslayer’ he said to me at his coronation feast. ‘Just don’t think to make it a habit.’ And he laughed.

Why is it that no one names Robert oathbreaker?

He tore the realm apart, yet I am the one with shit for honor.”

“Robert did all he did for love.”

Water ran down Brienne’s legs and pooled beneath her feet.

“Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face.”

The man looked over at the woman.

“The things I do for love,”

he said with loathing.

The Joker: You IDIOT! You made me. Remember, you dropped me into that vat of chemicals. That wasn't easy to get over, and don't think that I didn't try!

Batman: You killed my parents.

The Joker: What? What? What are you talking about?

Batman: I made you, you made me first.

[voodooqueen126]

See, you haven't been reading me. I said that was perfectly justified. For all her dreams of being a princess Sansa is smarter at 13 than Ned is at 37THAT was really fucking stupid and Sandor bailed her out I thought she wanted to go to Highgarden? yeah but she didn't pick the place. and neither does she until Littlefinger tells her wear to go.

Unless you have a worthwhile goal, pursuing power is stupid. Thus Sansa's desire to be a princess was silly, since she thought being Queen was about wearing beautiful dresses, when it's actually about producing children (which Sansa understood) and influencing the King into making better decisions/leading other women by example. This stupidity is forgivable, because sheltered 11 year olds have little way of knowing what Queenship is actually about.

Saving Dontos may not have been something you would do, but it was the right thing to do. However Dontos looked extremely unreliable to Sansa, Highgarden looked like a more sensible option. Of course she didn't pick the place. Sansa knew that she was surrounded by spies, but not how they spied or where they spied, since she had no way of knowing that Varys had small tongueless children inside secret passages. She had no one who she could trust and thus trusted no-one, to meet in the Godswood was an immense risk on her part.

They didn't climb down the side of a castle. She climbs down the same cliff Ned climbed down to meet Catelyn... again... not her discovery...Littlefigner's favorite exit.... Arya, Sansa's YOUNGER sister, however did escape the Red Keep, on her own, through the sewer.

Climbing down the side of a cliff was not easy.

Sansa had no way of knowing about secret passages down the side of the cliff, Littlefinger had years, as a free man in a position of power on the small council to discover passages like the one he led Ned through. Sansa was a hostage, a little girl, who avoided constant surveillance by pretending to be dumb and submissive, she had few oppurtunities to discover secret passages, even had she discovered them how was she supposed to fend for herself on the beach? She had no money to buy a passage on a ship nor could she pass herself off as a boy.

Whilst Arya only discovered the sewers because she was chasing a cat (when her father was at the height of his power). Realistically speaking Arya should have been raped and murdered a long time ago, she only avoided it because she had people like Gendry (who maybe a kid, but he's a blacksmith), Jaqen, Yoren etc, looking out for her as well as amazing plot armour.

She could have done with Sandor out of the city and chose to stay. Gendry is just another kid. Sansa has Septa Mordane, the fact that Sansa has Septa Mordane and Arya has Syrio, is their own doing, and precisely why I don't like Sansa. That's not a vote in her favor. Arya is a magic ninja assassin, Bran is a greenser, Sansa is still talking about pretty dresses and lemon cakes.

She was 12 years old, he clearly desired her sexually and he was often drunk, very scary and very rude to her, that would be why she didn't go with him.

What is wrong with beautiful clothing or lemon cakes? Lemon cakes contain vitamin C and take wealth to obtain in Winterfell. Beautiful clothing is a part of sex appeal, thus leading men to treat women nicely (As Sansa says, Joffrey likes her pretty) think of them as humble (as Sansa and Cersei show in AFFC, however because Cersei is dealing with a man who dislikes her, she fails, whilst Sansa succeeds), and ultimately come under a woman's power (Daenerys's way of dressing). Sadly Sansa may like beautiful clothing, but she is no longer especially interested in them as of AFFC, although she continues on using clothing as a tool.

Why is Syrio so much better than Septa Mordane? I am not interested in fencing, but I find philosophy and literature interesting, even if I were interested in fencing, if I had to fight someone like Ser Boros Blount or Ser Meryn Trant, I would just end up dead, therefore fencing is nearly pointless. On the other hand philosophy and literature and other humanities subjects are typically the majors which make up the arts degrees, and many public servants seem to have arts degrees. Thus philosophy and literature are far more useful to me, since my physical body does not prevent me from being a public servant (although before contraceptive pill, I wouldn't really be able to do that job), whilst my physical body (an aspect of myself I am fundamentally unable to change) would be a huge hindrance in warfare (except very modern warfare where whole cities can be eliminated with a button press).

If I were a Medieval person, I wouldn't have access to philosophy, but I would have access to religion, which is basically philosophy+sky fairy. Sansa's choice in teacher was much more suited to the position that she was born into (aristocratic) and more suited to her gender (female).

Now whilst Bran maybe becoming a Green Seer ( a very useful profession), Arya a magical assassin (reasonably useful, so long as she had someone like Sansa directing her, if Arya were being directed by the Kindly Man-which she is-then she would not be so useful). Whilst Sansa did have goals in early ASOS: children named for her brothers, a little girl who looks like Arya, and a prosperous life away from Kingslanding*, her marriage to Tyrion seems to have rendered her indifferent to marriage (and her experience with Joffrey indifferent to handsome men). Now because Westeros is fundamentally a society without law and order, and Baelish, by framing her Joffrey's murder, ensured that the only way for Sansa to achieve such a goal is to have power, since this enables Sansa (and people with her goals) to protect their families. Later in ASOS, Sansa told Baelish that she wanted to go home to Winterfell, and he dismissed that goal as impossible, when Sansa teasingly brings this up again in her final ASOS chapter, it precipitates his first unwanted kiss of her (because subtly she reminds him that she is not his fantasy daughter, but Ned Stark's daughter), I don't think Sansa ever mentions Winterfell to Baelish again after this point. Indeed when it comes to Baelish, she more or less follows Sandor's advice and tells Petyr what Littlefinger wants to hear, thus Baelish is even more cut off from Sansa's inner feelings than Tyrion:

For whilst Sansa's coldness to Tyrion made it very clear to him that she did not desire him sexually and Tyrion was thus sexually inhibited with her (because as Cersei told Sansa, Tyrion desires to be loved more than anything, and Sansa's coldness was not even the paid simulcrum of love) whilst her courtesy did not give Tyrion an excuse to beat her, at the same time Sansa's pious bleeting prevented Tyrion from truly knowing Sansa, and thus he had no suspicion of her escape plans. I would say this was the right tactic with Tyrion: even though Tyrion could have told her about Petyr's betrayal of Catelyn, and arguably her coldness to him prevented him from feeling kindly enough towards her to confide in her. Yet since Tyrion was unable to be Sansa's husband (since his goals were completely inimical to her own goals) and indeed unable even to deliver on the most basic promise of marriage, which is protection. There was thus no reason for Sansa to be warm to Tyrion, since this might have incited lust, which would have cemented the marriage. Thus the definite danger that would be sex with Tyrion (permanent entrapment with a deformed, whoring Lannister) outweighed any potential benefits (his confiding in her, which would be of no benefit to Sansa until she was in the Vale, an eventuality she could not have anticipated).

With Baelish, Sansa deliberately avoids doing anything that he dislikes: with Tyrion, Sansa was coldly courteous. With Petyr, Sansa becomes Alayne who is warm and curious (indeed Alayne is especially curious about the game of thrones), it is only when Littlefinger makes sexual approaches, does Alayne withdraw and cold Sansa emerge.

For instance Petyr's statements about Willas Tyrell indicate that he finds piety irritating, and Sansa becomes much less religious around Petyr. Indeed Sansa is so completely committed to being Alayne, who perfectly reflects Petyr in everyway, that Petyr has very little way of knowing about Sansa's true feelings, except that she dislikes his sexual advances.

In order to overcome these objections Littlefinger tries to seduce her (since Sansa never defies him, he has no reason to rape her) and I think Baelish offers Sansa marriage to Harry the Heir in order to seduce her (since Sansa stated that she wished to return to Winterfell), treat her like a genuine daughter (since if you had a daughter this is what you would do) and if his plan is genuine, he must see it as a means of furthering his own power.

Now if Baelish had offered Harry Harding to Sansa before her marriage to Tyrion, she would have been delighted, yet by late ASOS and early AFFC Sansa seems mostly indifferent to marraige, completely focused on feeling safe and her goal has shifted to be loved purely for herself and not her claim, hence her sexual fantasies about the Hound (who loved her even without concern for her claim).

Now since Littlefinger does not make her feel safe (his incestous sexual approaches), and cannot love her for herself, he himself is unable to satisfy Sansa's post-Tyrion goals. His alternative candidate that he thinks might satisfy Sansa's goals (as Petyr perceives them, Sansa is very careful to never share her them), Harry the Heir, is also unable to satisfy Sansa's need to be loved (since Harry the Heir is rumoured to be Robert Baratheon 0.2), the only thing that Harry really offers Sansa is return to Winterfell. However if Rickon were to re-emerge, then Sansa would be able to return to Winterfell without needing to engage in marriage (something that she now views with skepticisim). If Rickon were to re-emerge, Petyr would no longer hold a monopoly on the being the only person who could help Sansa fulfil her goal to return to Winterfell. I suppose if Petyr were a rational person, this wouldn't bother him and he would allow her to go back to cold Winterfell.

Yet there is every indication that Petyr is not a rational person: It is obvious that Petyr wants power for it's own sake and desires to gain power at any cost.

This leads to option A) for Petyr, Rickon (Ned's son) would be a pawn of Stannis, therefore to have this boy as Lord of Winterfell, would be inimical to Petyr's interests. Whilst Sansa (who could have been the daughter that he never had with Catelyn, but could also be his ersatz Catelyn) someone he perceives as submissive, tractable and completely grateful to him would be a preferable lord of Winterfell, since Sansa would be his pawn, whilst Rickon would be Stannis's pawn. This would also give Petyr motive to kill Sansa's only known surviving family member....

If Petyr was truly indifferent to the North, this leads to option B}

Petyr would be happy making Sansa lady of Riverrun or wife-then-widow of Harry the Heir (thus enabling Petyr to rule these areas through Sansa) the fact that Sansa wants neither Riverrun or the Eyrie means that the very fact of Rickon's existence means that as soon as Rickon re-emerges, Petyr loses the only thing that he offered Sansa that Sansa really wanted, which was return to Winterfell.

Finally option C)

Even if Petyr has contingincies for ruling the Vale without the Harry-Sansa marriage, and thinks he can hold the Riverlands through his seat at Harrenhal. The question of "why did Baelish bother kidnapping Sansa?" becomes even more pertinent, since if Baelish doesn't need Sansa for her claim to Winterfell, Riverrun and as a spouse of Harry Harding, then the only thing he needs her for is lust... since Baelish cannot love Sansa for herself (even his physical attraction to her is based on her resemblance to Catelyn Tully) and people are merely objects or things to Petyr Baelish, he would dispose of Sansa when was no longer able to satisfy his sexual whims/need to feel powerful. Needless to say not only does Sansa not return Baelish's sexual felings, but the re-emergence of Rickon would mean that Baelish would lose the only thing that would motivate Sansa to go along with Baelish's lust.

Option A) means that Rickon, Sansa's only known surviving relative would be a threat to Littlefinger's interests. whilst options B] and C) mean that Sansa herself would be less valuable in Littlefingers eyes. I think that Sansa, should she hear of Rickon's survival (towards the end of TWOW at the latest), would assume option A), so that even if option B or C were actually true, Sansa's belief in option A, would be the guiding force of her actions.

Given that Sansa by the end of ASOS had already watched Baelish murder Ser Dontos, Lysa, and accuse Marillion of murder...Which means that Sansa is aware that Littlefinger is happy to kill people when he no longer has a use for them/they threaten his interests and also makes Sansa's inner transformation into Alayne much more explicable: she knew she had to be what Littlefinger wanted, otherwise he would be indifferent to her. Sansa, by the end of AFFC is subtly aware that anything that renders her less valuable in Littlefingers eyes, would make Littlefinger indifferent to her, and when Littlefinger is indifferent to people, he has no use for them, and when he has no use for people he kills them.

Therefore, since Sansa automatically values Rickon's life above Petyr's, she has a motive to employ Chekhov's hairnet against Petyr, not because Petyr would be stupid enough to confide his plans to have Sansa's only surviving relative assassinated, if indeed that was his plan, since option B and C could easily be true, but Sansa would prabably assume option A), and make her plans accordingly. Whilst I personally would like Petyr to be brought to trial and executed, thus making Sansa's arc somewhat more intellectual**

Indeed if Petyr was actually motivated or aiming for options b and c, part of the irony would be that Petyr, who acted so randomly and untrustworthily, would be killed not for anything he did or anything he was actually planning to do, but because his perceived untrustworthyness made him a threat to a beloved person. The only similar murder to this would be Olenna Tyrell's plot against Joffrey-a plot Petyr participated in-since Joffrey was killed because his random violence made him a threat to Margaery. Thus Petyr-whose ability to plot randomly was based on the fact that people like Tywin Lannister and Eddard Stark (one completely evil the other nearly completely good, yet neither man listened) did not perceive him as a threat and therefore trusted Petyr whilst distaining Littlefinger, being poisoned because Sansa, someone whose whole character arc is about powerlessness and defenceless, poisoning Petyr because she did not trust Littlefinger not to threaten Rickon. For added irony this would be the epilogue chapter of TWOW and Petyr would be thinking option C), all the while unable to realise that Sansa believes option A, until he starts to choke...

*Interestingly enough these humble, stereotypically feminine goals put Sansa in direct conflict with Petyr Baelish's goals, since, as WOW pointed out, these goals are inimical to the pursuit of power for its own sake, yet Sansa is widely suspected to be the politician of the Stark family...

This seems strange, but also brilliant: without magical ability or the ability to inflict violence (neither ability is especially useful for achieving such goals anyway), the only way Sansa would be able to achieve these apparently trivial goals would be to live in a peaceful and pleasant society, Since Westeros is so anarchic and violent, the only way to ensure the safety of a bunch of children, a loving marriage, and prosperity is to obtain power. When people like Sansa gain power it becomes possible for them to enforce peace and influence society to become more pleasant.

** Petyrs tendency to confide in Sansa, and Lysa's final confession, could be indications that Petyr is one of those literary villains who has to be disposed of legally (Hands Clean), rather than simple poison. Personally I think intelligent villains should be disposed of intelligently (aka Hands Clean/the judicial process). But Martin does like irony, and he did say that their would be no heroes... It is worth noting that Petyr's confessions are only so much that they give Sansa subtle clues about his character and way of thinking, not enough that she would have concrete evidence against him.

I do believe it and I also think you believe it but you pretend not to because of arbitrary social standards like, its ok to chop off someone's head but not to poison them or whatever. I think there's no objective standard under which Littlefinger can be considered "worse" than Stannis. I can at least respect VodooQueen's position because its consistent, though I haven't heard her position on Stannis.

the distinction between execution and poison is not arbitary: for instance if we poisoned everyone who threatened us we could end up killing an innocent person, who never meant us any harm. For this reason, understandable as Lysa Tully's actions where, poisoning Jon Arryn was not right, since he wasn't actually going to send his sickly child to a malignant narcissist like Tywin (I think since Jon Arryn had met Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion he would know that Tywin could not rear children), but because Lysa acted on misinformation (specifically Petyr told her that Jon Arryn was going to send Sweet Robin to Tywin), she poisoned a man who had kept the realm afloat under Robert's mismanagement.

Even if my supposition that Jon Arryn was infertile were true, and that continous marriage to him was against her interests (to bear healthy children) murdering Jon Arryn was unnecessary since Lysa had been having an affair for years anyway (hence Sweet Robin).

That is why the state is given the job of executing people: They may have more information, greater objectively (ie not locked in a miserable marriage), and above all more reasonable criteria for execution: for instance marriage to an infertile man might be grounds for divorce in our society, and even though Westeros only has annulments, the fact remains that being infertile does not make someone worthy of death, since infertile people still contribute to society. I guess what I am trying to say, is that since everybody suffers from conflicts of interest at one time or another, and if everyone acted to eliminate those people with whom they had conflicts of interest, we would be in Thomas Hobbes state of nature:

" In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

The rule of law, means that even when people who have conflicts of interest, it is not permitted to murder the weaker or stupider one, since weak and stupid people are able to contribute in their own way (women, the physically weakest and least educated members of pre-modern societies, were basically kept alive because they contributed babies). Yet because there are people who are outside of societys' norms of morality (Ramsay Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy) whose goals are inherently inimical to others (since their goal is sadism for it's own sake), thus when they are found in places like America, they are executed, and when they are found out in Australia, they are imprisoned...

Whilst I have said that poison and murder are unacceptable in a peaceful society, it is true that the fastest most effective way to get rid of a tyrant is not the judicial process, but assassination. Because the need of society to be tyranny free needs to be gained quickly, and tyrants often have vast amounts of power at their disposal, thus assassination is the most effective way to seek an end to tyranny. For me personally: if I look at Petyr as tyrant then poison is acceptable, if I look at Petyr as a criminal then the judicial process is necessary.

Which leads me to the problem of tyranny and authoritarianism.

The problem with authoritarian regimes, is that they view people as objects, rather than people, thus a completely rational authoritarian regime would judge someone's continous right to life on the basis of what their usefulness, rather than how they treat other people.

This doesn't seem all that wrong: I mean surely Ted Bundy the lawyer contributes far more than that little girl with down-syndrome who scares away pigeons from KFC? Yet because the university students murdered by Ted Bundy would've made far contributions to society then Ted could, it is better to have 5 girls with down-syndrome than a single Ted Bundy, since a single Ted Bundy murders 27+ university students. Yet in such an authoritarian regime, someone like Ted would thrive... killing children with down-syndrome.

Now because authoritarian regimes are not rational, but rather hubristic, not only do people like Ted Bundy thrive, but the targets are often completely off: for instance in their hubris, Communist regimes thought they could do without Kulaks, Nazism thought Germany could do without Jews, and so on...

We also come to the second problem of authoritarian regimes: since the Ted Bundy's, Mengeles, Lavrenty Beria (fictional Westeros has Qyburn Ramsay Bolton, and Gregor Clegane) are basically having a great time staffing gulags or concentration camps, there comes a second, less sadistic and slightly more intelligent group of psychopaths, these are the people who end up in charge. This group includes Stalin, Hitler etc (in fictional Westeros ironically only Stannis comes close, perhaps the closest after that would be Tywin): they treat people like objects or things, and are thus willing to do almost anything to stay in power. Yet despite the fact that they lack the same personal physical sadism, they tend have a hugely broad definition of people who can be treated as objects, Fascism for instance, is the ideology of racial hubris, and this did not actually work.

Now real life tyrants are usually ideologically driven, and it is my personal opinion that GRRM shows his leftwing leanings, when he makes his greatest villains (Tywin, Baelish and Roose) desire pure power, since on the basis of real world experience it should ironically be Stannis,* who would be the most evil. Yet GRRM hasn't done that, instead his villains are basically driven by pure hubris, rather than batty ideology. This is a huge weakness, for even though Nazism and Communism are the ideologies of racial and class hubris respectively, it is the group aspects that make these ideologies so attractive to non psychopaths. For whilst there is nothing attractive about the ideology of "loving Roose Bolton" unless you are Roose Bolton, where as the ideology of loving the working class or loving Aryan-ness, is attractive if you are working classs or an Aryan, when you are attracted to this ideology, you maybe willing to die for it and kill for it.

Furthermore the fact that Tywin is driven by pure hubris causes him to make very stupid mistakes. Roose's hubris caused him to let Ramsay live after the Domeric incident, and Baelish's hubris causes him to confide in the daughter of his enemy.

*my position on Stannis is that before his conversion to R'hllor he was morally the equivalent of The Russian Provisional Government and that after his conversion to a religion utterly inimical to anything practiced in Westeros, he became rather like Lenin, only he has Stalin's charisma and Mao's determination.

The reason Stannis doesn't fall into complete monstrosity, is that he is not completely obsessed with this false and inimical ideology, thus a little bit of his old sense of justice remains. Ultimately I believe that after Stannis gets rid of the Boltons and marshalls the forces against the Ice Zombies/White Walkers, he will have fulfilled his purpose and he will die (at whoever's hands).

My general thinking is:

“The wide world is full of people wanting help, Jon. Would that some could find the courage to help themselves. Craster sprawls in his loft even now, stinking of wine and lost to sense. On his board below lies a sharp new axe. Were it me, I’d name it ‘Answered Prayer’ and make an end.”

Yes. Jon thought of Gilly. She and her sisters. They were nineteen, and Craster was one, but...

“Yet it would be an ill day for us if Craster died. Your uncle could tell you of the times Craster’s Keep made the difference between life and death for our rangers.”

“My father...” He hesitated.

“Go on, Jon. Say what you would say.”

“My father once told me that some men are not worth having,” Jon finished. “A bannerman who is brutal or unjust dishonors his liege lord as well as himself.”

“Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here.

We cannot set the world to rights.

I don't expect the lords of Westeros to be any better or any worse than is necessary for them to survive and prosper in Westeros. I have no more patience for Bowen Marsh's inflexible xenophobia against the wildlings than I do for Ned's impractical inflexibility in King's landing.

“What will you do when he crosses?”

“Fight. Kill. Die, maybe.”

“Aren’t you afraid? The gods might send you down to some terrible hell for all the evil you’ve done.”

“What evil?” He laughed. “What gods?”

“The gods who made us all.”

“All?” he mocked. “Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp, or a halfwit like Lady Tanda’s daughter? If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with.”

“True knights protect the weak.”

He snorted. “

There are no true knights, no more than there are gods.

If you can’t protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can.

Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don’t ever believe any different.”

Sansa backed away from him. “You’re awful.”

“

I’m honest. It’s the world that’s awful.

Now fly away, little bird, I’m sick of you peeping at me.”

I don't think he really believes this, based on Sandor's actions, he doesn't kill people merely because they can't defend themselves.

Cheer up mate, the fact that we are not living in the dark ages/a society like Westeros indicates that Sandor's statements are untrue, and they are untrue because Lord Mormont's statements are untrue, it is possible to change society, but it must happen slowly.

Western society changed because of people like Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, Francis of Assisi, Hugh St Victor, John Dominici, San Bernardino of Siena, , all of whom worked within the confines of medieval society catholic society, and would be considered mad authoritarian bastards if they lived today. Yet the ideas of Francis of Assissi lead to William of Ockham (father of secularism), Thomas Aquinas has been hugely influential for ethics, St Augustine was just war, Hugh St Victor, John Dominici, San Bernardino changed the medieval attitudes to money, Petrarch started the fashion for looking at classical works.

Next came the humanists: people like Erasmus (religious toleration), Roger Ascham (who in turn influenced Queen Elizabeth). Then came people like Thomas Hobbes. Whose ideas ironically lead to John Lockes, Thomas Paine, even more authoritarian thinkers like Voltaire and Rousseau...From there the rest is democracy; America's founding father's applied these ideas hypocritically (ie there definition of man did not include slaves, or women), a civil war was eventually fought, and later a referendum... Which is to say that gradually, over hundreds of years society changed, and, it did not require that people be transgressive and work against society, it required a bunch of intellectuals sitting around in universities, coming up with ways to make the world less horrible, then it required other less brilliant intellectuals, but who were better with children, to get into positions of influence as tutors to monarchs. Monarchs who either funded more intellectuals or applied those ideas...As society became more prosperous-and morality and wealth often correlatate, unless you have oil-it was not necessary to influence the kings or princes directly, because of widespread printing made it possible to publish books, that the increasingly wealthy middle class could read... Now that was a gross simplification of the history of western philosophy and it's influence on western society, but essentially society is changed by priests, then it is changed by clerks, then it is changed by teachers, then it is changed by writers...

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Robert [stark] could piss in a cup and men[readers] would call it wine, but I [Petyr] offer them pure cold water and they squint in suspicion and mutter to each other about how queer it tastes.

, for that he needs power. Ramsay and Gregor enjoy hurting people, for that they need power, Gregor because of his size and the fact that he serves a lord like Tywin Lannister, is able to hurt people without anything more than a knighthood. Ramsay because he is smaller needs to be recognised by Roose, and then he needs legitimacy to hurt even more people. Both Ramsay and Gregor thrive under people like Roose and Tywin (who are pretty similar).

Which two, Tywin and Roose or Gregor and Ramsay

Now I would say that in the case of both men, their evil took the form of wrath and lust. Whilst anger and lust are not fundamentally bad emotions (see my post on the 7 deadly sins) for without anger we would not pursue justice and without lust we would not give birth to children, it was hubris that enabled Gregor and Ramsay to turn those natural and needful desires into sadism.

Now Petyr also thrives under Tywin and Joffrey, conversely Petyr doesn't like Stannis... because Petyr thinks that he wouldn't thrive under Stannis... This is interesting, because Stannis has shown his willingness to promote people far more low-born than Petyr, whilst Tywin is famously dismissive of low-born people/social mobility...

Stannis is impractical. That's the problem. While Petyr might be willing to play by Stannis' rules, no body else is so Stannis' cause is doomed.

Lord Renly laughed. “We’re fortunate my brother Stannis is not with us. Remember the time he proposed to outlaw brothels? The king asked him if perhaps he’d like to outlaw eating, shitting, and breathing while he was at it. If truth be told, I ofttimes wonder how Stannis ever got that

ugly daughter of his. He goes to his marriage bed like a man marching to a battlefield, with a grim look in his eyes and a determination to do his duty.”

Ned had not joined the laughter. “I wonder about your brother Stannis as well. I wonder when he intends to end his visit to Dragonstone and resume his seat on this council.”

“No doubt as soon as we’ve scourged all those whores into the sea,” Littlefinger replied, provoking more laughter.

My father always said you were a just man.”

Just but harsh had been Lord Eddard’s exact words

, but Jon did not think it would be wise to share that.

“Renly is dead, Your Grace,” Littlefinger pointed out, “and neither Stannis nor Lord Paxter will have forgotten how Redwyne galleys closed the sea during the siege of Storm’s End.

Do you think Lord Tywin will sit idly while his daughter’s head is measured for a spike? Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm’s End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

And lets not forget Stannis burns people alive and is willing to burn children alive. Stannis plunges the realm into war over something very very petty, who was born first.

Now you must ask yourself is hurting people because they rejected your suit at the age of 15 a good motive?

I don't think it had to do with the rejection. I think it had to do with the rudeness the delivery and the reasoning for the rejection.

He had a better reason than Robert or Stannis Baratheon ever did.

How is that motive any better than 'simply hurting people for fun"?

How is having a war over who was born in what order any better than 'simply hurting people for fun"?

What kind of person goes to all that effort (creating general chaos in Westeros) over a rejection they received at the age of 15?

He didn't create it. He just altered the timing.

I do think Tywin is less responsible for the actions of Gregor Clegane than Gregor himself is ultimately. Though, Tywin at least has authority over Gregor. Were Petyr in a position to give orders then I might agree with you about his culpability. But all Petyr can do is try to influence the actions of others from afar, he cannot order them or force them to do much of anything, unlike Roose or Tywin. Surely Petyr cannot be more responsible for the war in the Riverlands than Tywin. Petyr can't be more responsible for war than Cersei, who passed off illegitimate children as the rightful heirs to the realm, virtually guaranteeing war. Petyr can't be more responsible for war than Cersei, who organized the assassination of the King. Petyr can't be more responsible for the war in the Riverlands than Catelyn, he did lie to her but she still knew she was kidnapping the son of the Warden of the West. Petyr can't be more responsible for the war than Ned Stark who chose to support Stannis, warns the Queen of this fact and refuses to take Cersei or her children into custody. A set of actions that Ned was warned twice, would lead to war. Petyr can't be more responsible for the war than Stannis, who could have bent the knee to Renly and ended Lannister contentions for the throne.

So all we can really say is that Petyr changed the timing of some events.

More importantly than any of those things, though. Just as Tywin is responsible for the Westerlands, Petyr is responsible for the Vale, even though no one else realizes he's running it yet. It is the responsibility of Edmure and Hoster to to defend their lands and their people. As it was Robb's to protect the North. Upon whom must "material good" be bestowed in order for a leader to be considered "good". Tywin gave the realm 20 years of peace when he was hand of the King. When he resigned the position he was solely responsible for the people of the Westerlands, and again his reputation and management bestowed peace and prosperity upon his people. Its Tywin's reputation that prevents Balon from invading the Westerlands.

"Theon edged backward, away from the sudden fury in his father’s tone. “Take it, then,” he spat, his cheek still tingling. “Call yourself King of the Iron islands, no one will care... until the wars are over, and the victor looks about and spies the old fool perched off his shore with an iron crown on his head.”

Lord Balon laughed. “Well, at the least you are no craven. No more than I’m a fool. Do you think I gather my ships to watch them rock at anchor? I mean to carve out a kingdom with fire and sword... but not from the west, and not at the bidding of King Robb the Boy. Casterly Rock

is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. No. I hunger for a different plum... not so juicy sweet, to be sure, yet it hangs there ripe and undefended.”

So too does Petyr protect the Vale of Baelish.

Cat knew that the men off the Brazen Monkey would not care about the name of a courtesan’s mother, though. Instead, she asked them for tidings of the Seven Kingdoms, and the war.

“War?” laughed one of them. “What war? There is no war.”

“Not in Gulltown,” said another. “Not in the Vale. The little lord’s kept us out of it, same as his mother did.”

The elements of war were already in place. Bastards in the line of successions. Renly plotting with the Tyrells to replace Cersei. Tywin, the most powerful lord in the realm, unlikely see his daughter set aside. Hoster Tully on his death bed and Edmure too incompetent to defend his lands and too unblooded to discourage incursions by force of personality. And incompetent a king of the throne, holding together a realm that had only bent the knee to dragons to begin with. As with the US colonies and their unstable alliance between the revolution and the civil war. The question is not if but when. Not why, but how. The center could not hold. All Petyr did was change the timing of a few things, that he might be prepared to benefit.

I call that heroic, not villainy. A herculean feat of Machiavellian gamesmanship. All without Tywin's gold, Dany's dragons, or Tyrion's high birth. Jesus, its so fucking beautiful, I love this guy.

That's a petty motive.

no its not.

A person who reacts with such rage to such a trivial

its not trivial.

slight

How did Tywin react when Aerys wouldn't marry Cersei to Rhaegar?

(OMG Hoster Tully thinks I am unworthy of his daughters

Tyrion react to Shae, telling the court she called him "my giant of Lannister"? How did Victarion react when a fisherman laughed at his idea to sail the Dothraki sea?

“Where is this Dothraki sea?” he demanded. “I will sail the Iron Fleet across it and find the queen wherever she may be.” The fisherman laughed aloud. “That would be a sight worth seeing. The Dothraki sea is made of grass, fool.” He should not have said that. Victarion took him around the throat with his burned hand and lifted him bodily into the air. Slamming him back against the mast, he squeezed till the Yunkishman’s face turned as black as the fingers digging into his flesh. The man kicked and writhed for a while, trying fruitlessly to pry loose the captain’s grip. “No man calls Victarion Greyjoy a fool and lives to boast of it.” When he opened his hand, the man’s limp body flopped to the deck. Longwater Pyke and Tom Tidewood chucked it over the rail, another offering to the Drowned God.

How did Jon Snow react to Alliser Thorne calling him a "traitor's bastard"

“Not only a bastard, but a traitor’s bastard,” he was telling the men around him.

In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away, and then he was sprinting down the table and kicking the bowl from Ser Alliser’s hand. Stew went flying everywhere, spattering the brothers. Thorne recoiled. People were shouting, but Jon Snow did not hear them. He lunged at Ser Alliser’s face with the dagger, slashing at those cold onyx eyes, but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers."

How does Cersei react when Bronn names his son Tyrion? And how does she react Falyse fails to rid her of Bronn?

The queen took Qyburn aside and told him of Ser Balman’s folly. “I cannot have Falyse spreading tales about the city. Her grief has made her witless. Do you still need women for your... work?”

“I do, Your Grace. The puppeteers are quite used up.”

“Take her and do with her as you will, then. But once she goes down into the black cells... need I say more?”

“No, Your Grace. I understand.”

hand! Brandon beat me in a duel! DESTROY HOUSE TULLY AND HOUSE STARK)

I don't think he intended for House Stark to be destroy, Ned Stark just wouldn't listen to reason and then they got caught in the cross fire.

would be a rather silly person. Tywin was also motivated by the mockery that his father received when he was a young man, and I regard him as a petty and pathetic little man. Now look where Tywin's hubris got him...

20 Years as Hand of the King? The richest and most powerful fiefdom in Westeros? His daughter as Queen Regent? His Grandson as King?

You might argue that Ned also hurts people whom he perceives as having wronged him: after all he executed that Nights Watch deserter who hadn't even rejected his sexual advances...to which I would reply, Ned did not regard the Night's Watch deserter as having wronged him, but he did regard Gared as having wronged society: For Nights Watch deserter had not done anything personally wrong to Ned, he had wronged society: first he poached (or committed some other crime that wouldn't be all that criminal today) then he deserted the Nights Watch, where he was charged with defending the realm from Ice Zombies (which nobody knew about except Gared and some wildlings) and Wildlings (who have no concept of rule of law).

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

“If you kill a man, and never meant’, he’s just as dead,”

Dead is dead.

Will had been a hunter before he joined the Night’s Watch. Well, a poacher in truth. Mallister freeriders had caught him red-handed in the Mallisters’ own woods, skinning one of the Mallisters’ own bucks

Because Gared had broken the rule of law, he lost his right to live.

:lmao: Yeah ok.

Because Hoster Tully was a dick he lost his right to live.

Not because he had offended Ned personally, but because he had broken the rule of law. Ned as lord of Winterfell was charged with enforcing the rule of law, this entailed the execution of people who broke the law, without enforcement of the rule of law, the law becomes a joke and anarchy ensues: for example the Wildlings have no rule of law, and they also live in anarchy... and poverty

What's everyone else in the North's excuse, for poverty?

. Anarchy breeds poverty for the general populace cannot acrue wealth for fear of being robbed, thus even the king cannot be rich (since he won't be able to tax people), it is the thus in both the interests of the populace and the king/lord that the rule of law is enforced.

When did, I say there was no reason to have laws? Having laws doesn't mean Ned has to be the one enforcing them. As I've said, Ned was welcome to abdicate and move to the quiet isle, or walk the Trident on Septon Merribald's circuit. Nor does it mean the penalty has to be death. Its Ned choice to be Lord of Winterfell and his choice to cut off Gared's head

Anarchy also breeds misery for everybody who is not strong and violent. My problem with Westeros is that it doesn't have enough law, and it doesn't have enough enforcement of the laws that it does have.

Fundamentally people who go against society/it's rules are either not especially useful (like Brienne or Arya)

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. While some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.

or outright dangerous

dangerous, like a fox.

(Petyr, Cersei), when people who are indifferent to society's rules and laws end up in charge, it is either mildly disasterous (Tyrion's indifference to the Mountain Clans barbarism in KL)

Barbarism? What Barbarism? Saving all their lives? The Mountain Clans have a free, democratic society with gender equality. I think you're confused about who precisely is barbaric.

“They followed me home, Father,” Tyrion explained. “May I keep them? They don’t eat much.”

No one was smiling. “By what right do you savages intrude on our councils?” demanded Ser Kevan.

“Savages, lowlander?” Conn might have been handsome if you washed him. “

We are free men, and free men by rights sit on all war councils.

”

“Which one is the lion lord?” Chella asked.

“They are both old men,” announced Timett son of Timett, who had yet to see his twentieth year.

Ser Kevan’s hand went to his sword hilt, but his brother placed two fingers on his wrist and held him fast. Lord Tywin seemed unperturbed. “Tyrion, have you forgotten your courtesies? Kindly acquaint us with our... honored guests.”

Tyrion licked his fingers. “With pleasure,” he said. “The fair maid is Chella daughter of Cheyk of the Black Ears.”

“I’m no maid,” Chella protested. “My sons have taken fifty ears among them.”

“The Stone Crows are still in the kingswood. Shagga seems to have taken a fancy to the place. Timett led the Burned Men home, with all the plunder they took from Stannis’s camp after the fighting.

Chella turned up with a dozen Black Ears at the River Gate one morning, but your father’s red cloaks chased them off

while the Kingslanders threw dung and cheered

.”

Ingrates. The Black Ears died for them.

Don’t talk like one of them. You’re not! Even if you’d like to be. To them, you’re just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don’t, they’ll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it’s a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They’re only as good as the world allows them to be. I’ll show you.

When the chips are down, these… these civilized people, they’ll eat each other

.

See, I’m not a monster. I’m just ahead of the curve.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

or completely vile, for Tywin and Roose corrupted everything they touched. Now needless to say, the solution

Who said there was a solution?

to this problem is not put people like Cersei, Littlefinger, Tywin, Roose, Tyrion in charge. If only because most of those people have people like Qyburn, Gregor, Ramsay, or Bronn* beneath them. I would say that if Baelish's feelings about Stannis are anything to go by, Baelish actually fears rule of law and therefore does not want people who are willing to enforce, it in power. You might say that once Baelish had secured his power, he would have an incentive to enforce rule of law, he might well do so, or he might not. Since Baelish is fundamentally indifferent to others, as he views other people as objects or things

He views them as things because they are things. everything, is a thing, and people are one type.

, he has no incentive to enforce rule of law

NO NO NO NO. There are plenty of good reason to enforce the rule of law. Social contracts help people to collaborate on large scale projects and accomplish things that take extended periods of time.

, on a personal level, and feudalism is deeply personal... Now both Roose and Tywin, are like Baelish in that they view other people as objects or things, yet although Roose makes speeches about a quiet land and a quiet people, he was still willing to let Ramsay live after Ramsay killed Domeric, in his hubris, Roose

No, I think he, he thinks he can control Ramsay. He doesn't seem to really care. Or to even try to control him.

believes that he can control Ramsay, yet Ramsay in charge is destroying House Bolton. Same with Tywin: he finds Joffrey's sadism a little strange, yet since he also views people as objects, he is not able to see the damage that Joffrey

Nah, Tywin see's Joffrey for what he is, Had Joffrey lived, Tywin would have removed him from power or killed him.

“Ser Ilyn never dared provoke Aerys the way your Imp provokes Joff,” said Cersei. “You heard him. ‘Monster’ he said. To the King’s Grace.

And he threatened him...

“Be quiet, Cersei.

Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.

And any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will.

When I’ve won your war for you,

we will restore the king’s peace and the king’s justice

. The only head that need concern you is Margaery Tyrell’s maidenhead.”....

....“Father, I am sorry,” Cersei said, when the door was shut. “Joff has always been willful, I did warn you...”

“There is a long league’s worth of difference between willful and stupid. ‘A strong king acts boldly?’ Who told him that?”

“Not me, I promise you,” said Cersei. “Most like it was something he heard Robert say...”

“The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert.” Tyrion didn’t want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.

“Yes, I recall now,” Cersei said, “Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold.”

“And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father.”

“Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I’d allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I’d kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things...”

“It appears things needed to be said.” Lord Tywin waved two fingers at her, a brusque dismissal. “Go.”

She went, seething.

“Not Robert the Second,” Tyrion said. “Aerys the Third.”

“The boy is thirteen. There is time yet.” Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. “He requires a sharp lesson.”

Tyrion had gotten his own sharp lesson at thirteen. He felt almost sorry for his nephew. On the other hand, no one deserved it more.

would do, or in his hubris he believed that Joffrey's behaviour can be modified, now fortunately for Tywin, Joffrey was poisoned before he had a chance to beat and rape Margaery, thus alienating the Tyrells.

Surely Joff had a chance, margery's been in kingslanding so short after the battle of the black water, he simply hadn't done so.

Petyr, whose IQ is slightly higher than Tywin's

No its way, way way, higher than Tywin's. Tywin was born on top of a mountain of gold and with the deck stacked in his favor.

, was when Lysa started babbling on about how he told her to poison Jon Arryn, able to see that Lysa was a threat to his interests, and that she could not be controlled and her behaviour could not be modified...

I don't think he thought it out that much. He didn't need her anymore, she was a liability. Whether her behavior can be mollified or not, its not worth the risk to find out.

Yet how did Tywin meet his end: Tywin's own hubris,

I don't think Tywin suffers from hubris. I think Tywin has an accurate perception of himself

had years earlier caused him to order Tysha's gang rape, since Tyrion, due to his disability and mysoginy,

I don't think Tyrion is a misogynist

(the latter inherited from Tywin) was only able to relate to women in a sexual way, therefore Tyrion's only source of love was Tysha. Now for as long as Tyrion believed that Tysha was a whore, rather than the only woman who had ever loved him, Tywin was safe. Yet as soon as Jaime told Tyrion the truth, Tywin was a dead man walking...,

Well not really. If jamie hadn't opened the door to the cell, Tywin would have been just fine.

But what does any of that have to do with hubris? Tywin is an asshole. That's a given.

The best part is that is that in his hubris, Tywin believed that Tyrion (being a dwarf) would not have the courage to fire the cross-bow...Yet Tywin's tendency to view others as objects,,

No he doesn't think Tyrion will kill his father. Tywin, in his misguided way, cares solely about family. He never intentionally harms them.

and project that tendency onto Tyrion, meant that he could not imagine why Tyrion would want to kill him over the 'whore': How ironic that a man incapable of loving his own son, who viewed lower class women with particular scorn, would be killed by his own son's love for a lower class woman... *Interestingly, Littlefinger lacks his own particular psychopath for hire, indeed his art seems to be corrupting normal people to obey him (Milgram experiment anyone), rather than unleashing psychopaths... Still, Tywin didn't die at the hands of someone angry about Gregor Clegane's actions, but rather because he corrupted ordinary soldiers into gang-raping a teenager.

No. Tywin died because Tyrion shot him with a crossbow. Something no one but Cersei believes him capable of. But Tywin could have just thrown Tyrion down a well. I could easily see a similar scenario occurring between Randyll Tarly and Samwell, but with Samwell not being unwilling to kill.

However I'd already said Tywin was an asshole and a misogynist. There's no reason or need for that. But you'd still rather have Tywin than Edmure as your Lord, in Westeros as it exists in the books.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

You've got to break up your giant text blocks. I can't understand what you're referring to half the time.

Unless you have a worthwhile goal, pursuing power is stupid. Thus Sansa's desire to be a princess was silly, since she thought being Queen was about wearing beautiful dresses, when it's actually about producing children (which Sansa understood) and influencing the King into making better decisions/leading other women by example. This stupidity is forgivable, because sheltered 11 year olds have little way of knowing what Queenship is actually about.

If I didn't have to keep reading about her, she'd be forgiven.

Saving Dontos may not have been something you would do, but it was the right thing to do. However Dontos looked extremely unreliable to Sansa, Highgarden looked like a more sensible option.

Yeah that's my point. So saving Dontos didn't help her at all.

Of course she didn't pick the place. Sansa knew that she was surrounded by spies, but not how they spied or where they spied, since she had no way of knowing that Varys had small tongueless children inside secret passages. She had no one who she could trust and thus trusted no-one, to meet in the Godswood was an immense risk on her part. Climbing down the side of a cliff was not easy. Sansa had no way of knowing about secret passages down the side of the cliff, Littlefinger had years, as a free man in a position of power on the small council to discover passages like the one he led Ned through. Sansa was a hostage, a little girl, who avoided constant surveillance by pretending

She's not pretending, she is dumb and submissive.

to be dumb and submissive, she had few oppurtunities to discover secret passages, even had she discovered them how was she supposed to fend for herself on the beach?

You misunderstand me, I was merely stating those were not accomplishments. Sansa isn't abnormal from what I would imagine an 11-13 year old noble girl would be like. I just don't want to read about them.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Cheer up mate, the fact that we are not living in the dark ages/a society like Westeros indicates that Sandor's statements are untrue, and they are untrue because Lord Mormont's statements are untrue, it is possible to change society, but it must happen slowly.

Western society changed because of people like Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, Francis of Assisi, Hugh St Victor, John Dominici, San Bernardino of Siena, , all of whom worked within the confines of medieval society catholic society, and would be considered mad authoritarian bastards if they lived today. Yet the ideas of Francis of Assissi lead to William of Ockham (father of secularism), Thomas Aquinas has been hugely influential for ethics, St Augustine was just war, Hugh St Victor, John Dominici, San Bernardino changed the medieval attitudes to money, Petrarch started the fashion for looking at classical works.

Next came the humanists: people like Erasmus (religious toleration), Roger Ascham(who in turn influenced Queen Elizabeth). Then came people like Thomas Hobbes. Whose ideas ironically lead to John Lockes, Thomas Paine, even more authoritarian thinkers like Voltaire and Rousseau...From there the rest is democracy; America's founding father's applied these ideas hypocritically (ie there definition of man did not include slaves, or women), a civil war was eventually fought, and later a referendum... Which is to say that gradually, over hundreds of years society changed, and, it did not require that people be transgressive and work against society, it required a bunch of intellectuals sitting around in universities, coming up with ways to make the world less horrible, then it required other less brilliant intellectuals, but who were better with children, to get into positions of influence as tutors to monarchs. Monarchs who either funded more intellectuals or applied those ideas...As society became more prosperous-and morality and wealth often correlatate, unless you have oil-it was not necessary to influence the kings or princes directly, because of widespread printing made it possible to publish books, that the increasingly wealthy middle class could read... Now that was a gross simplification of the history of western philosophy and it's influence on western society, but essentially society is changed by priests, then it is changed by clerks, then it is changed by teachers, then it is changed by writers...

I'm not upset. And, yes, I'm familiar with the renaissance and the enlightenment. But Petyr Baelish doesn't live in the modern West. And if he did we wouldn't go around murdering people. He would trade fixed income derivatives or something.

And While we don't still live in the middle ages, strong arms and sharp swords do rule this world. Just ask, the Samali's, the Iraqi's, the Afgahni's, the Pakistani's. The US has over a thousand overseas military basis, we just opened a new one in Australia. Thanks, for that. We have one in Cuba and we don't even recognize Cuba. And Presidents invade countries, torture, maim and violate the constitution with impunity.

[Castel]

Fundamentally people who go against society/it's rules are either not especially useful (like Brienne or Arya) or outright dangerous (Petyr, Cersei), when people who are indifferent to society's rules and laws end up in charge, it is either mildly disasterous (Tyrion's indifference to the Mountain Clans barbarism in KL)

Your first assertion may have been true if these people lived in a tribal society that needed every man woman and child performing very specific duties. As it is Westeros has some leeway. And that's ignoring the fact that you can't state the Brienne and Arya are not useful. Brienne in particular has her uses, just because they're not traditional ones doesn't make them any less important. Hell, you could say that the majority of men following societies rules aren't especially useful.

Your second assertion might have been true if society was perfect. AS it is it is a barbaric, misogynistic, racist grinder and what they consider right is not always valid or useful.It depends on what rules you do or don't follow. I mean can, anyone claim that the High Septon is good because he follows the rules, or the Slavers are okay because it's fine with their rules? Either case could yield disastrous consequences.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Unless you have a worthwhile goal, pursuing power is stupid. Thus Sansa's desire to be a princess was silly, since she thought being Queen was about wearing beautiful dresses, when it's actually about producing children (which Sansa understood) and influencing the King into making better decisions/leading other women by example. This stupidity is forgivable, because sheltered 11 year olds have little way of knowing what Queenship is actually about. Saving Dontos may not have been something you would do, but it was the right thing to do. However Dontos looked extremely unreliable to Sansa, Highgarden looked like a more sensible option. Of course she didn't pick the place. Sansa knew that she was surrounded by spies, but not how they spied or where they spied, since she had no way of knowing that Varys had small tongueless children inside secret passages. She had no one who she could trust and thus trusted no-one, to meet in the Godswood was an immense risk on her part. Climbing down the side of a cliff was not easy. Sansa had no way of knowing about secret passages down the side of the cliff, Littlefinger had years, as a free man in a position of power on the small council to discover passages like the one he led Ned through. Sansa was a hostage, a little girl, who avoided constant surveillance by pretending to be dumb and submissive, she had few oppurtunities to discover secret passages, even had she discovered them how was she supposed to fend for herself on the beach? She had no money to buy a passage on a ship nor could she pass herself off as a boy. Whilst Arya only discovered the sewers because she was chasing a cat (when her father was at the height of his power). Realistically speaking Arya should have been raped and murdered a long time ago, she only avoided it because she had people like Gendry (who maybe a kid, but he's a blacksmith), Jaqen, Yoren etc, looking out for her as well as amazing plot armour. She was 12 years old, he clearly desired her sexually and he was often drunk, very scary and very rude to her, that would be why she didn't go with him. What is wrong with beautiful clothing or lemon cakes? Lemon cakes contain vitamin C and take wealth to obtain in Winterfell. Beautiful clothing is a part of sex appeal, thus leading men to treat women nicely (As Sansa says, Joffrey likes her pretty) think of them as humble (as Sansa and Cersei show in AFFC, however because Cersei is dealing with a man who dislikes her, she fails, whilst Sansa succeeds), and ultimately come under a woman's power (Daenerys's way of dressing). Sadly Sansa may like beautiful clothing, but she is no longer especially interested in them as of AFFC,

No she's just as stupid as ever in AFFC

Lady Lysa had grown very stout during her long succession of pregnancies, stillbirths, and miscarriages. A few of the oldest gowns had been made for young Lysa Tully of Riverrun, however, and others Gretchel had been able to alter to fit Alayne, who was almost as long of leg at three-and-ten as her aunt had been at twenty.

This morning her eye was caught by a parti-colored gown of Tully red and blue, lined with vair.

Gretchel helped her slide her arms into the belled sleeves and laced her back, then brushed and pinned her hair.....

....

Our guests will be cold and thirsty after their long climb. You are to meet them when they arrive, and offer them refreshment. Wine, bread, and cheese. What sort of cheese is left to us?”

“The sharp white and the stinky blue.”

“The white.

And you’d best change as well.”

Alayne looked down at her dress, the deep blue and rich dark red of Riverrun. “Is it too—”

“It is too Tully. The Lords Declarant will not be pleased by the sight of my bastard daughter prancing about in my dead wife’s clothes. Choose something else.

Need I remind you to avoid sky blue and cream?”

[translation: how fucking stupid are you, Sansa?]

“No.” Sky blue and cream were the colors of House Arryn.

“Eight, you said... Bronze Yohn is one of them?”

although she continues on using clothing as a tool.

Why is Syrio so much better than Septa Mordane? I am not interested in fencing, but I find philosophy and literature interesting

I don't think Septa Mordane knows anything about philosophy or literature.

, even if I were interested in fencing, if I had to fight someone like Ser Boros Blount or Ser Meryn Trant, I would just end up dead, therefore fencing is nearly pointless.

no I think you could take them using proper technique. and I did't say there was anything wrong with philosophy or literature

On the other hand philosophy and literature and other humanities subjects are typically the majors which make up the arts degrees, and many public servants seem to have arts degrees. Thus philosophy and literature are far more useful to me, since my physical body does not prevent me from being a public servant (although before contraceptive pill, I wouldn't really be able to do that job), whilst my physical body (an aspect of myself I am fundamentally unable to change) would be a huge hindrance in warfare (except very modern warfare where whole cities can be eliminated with a button press). If I were a Medieval person, I wouldn't have access to philosophy, but I would have access to religion, which is basically philosophy+sky fairy. Sansa's choice in teacher was much more suited to the position that she was born into (aristocratic) and more suited to her gender (female). Now whilst Bran maybe becoming a Green Seer ( a very useful profession), Arya a magical assassin (reasonably useful, so long as she had someone like Sansa directing her, if Arya were being directed by the Kindly Man-which she is-then she would not be so useful). Whilst Sansa did have goals in early ASOS: children named for her brothers, a little girl who looks like Arya, and a prosperous life away from Kingslanding*, her marriage to Tyrion seems to have rendered her indifferent to marriage (and her experience with Joffrey indifferent to handsome men). Now because Westeros is fundamentally a society without law and order, and Baelish, by framing her Joffrey's murder, ensured that the only way for Sansa to achieve such a goal is to have power, since this enables Sansa (and people with her goals) to protect their families. Later in ASOS, Sansa told Baelish that she wanted to go home to Winterfell, and he dismissed that goal as impossible, when Sansa teasingly brings this up again in her final ASOS chapter, it precipitates his first unwanted kiss of her (because subtly she reminds him that she is not his fantasy daughter, but Ned Stark's daughter), I don't think Sansa ever mentions Winterfell to Baelish again after this point. Indeed when it comes to Baelish, she more or less follows Sandor's advice and tells Petyr what Littlefinger wants to hear, thus Baelish is even more cut off from Sansa's inner feelings than Tyrion: For whilst Sansa's coldness to Tyrion made it very clear to him that she did not desire him sexually and Tyrion was thus sexually inhibited with her (because as Cersei told Sansa, Tyrion desires to be loved more than anything, and Sansa's coldness was not even the paid simulcrum of love) whilst her courtesy did not give Tyrion an excuse to beat her, at the same time Sansa's pious bleeting prevented Tyrion from truly knowing Sansa, and thus he had no suspicion of her escape plans.

No he understands her. She's an idiot and a dick

I would say this was the right tactic with Tyrion: even though Tyrion could have told her about Petyr's betrayal of Catelyn

What betrayal of Catelyn?

, and arguably her coldness to him prevented him from feeling kindly enough towards her to confide in her. Yet since Tyrion was unable to be Sansa's husband (since his goals were completely inimical to her own goals) and indeed unable even to deliver on the most basic promise of marriage, which is protection.

That is not a fucking basic promise of marriage. She should have gotten offer her ass and protected him and herself. If she's so concerned about things that need protecting

There was thus no reason for Sansa to be warm to Tyrion

But there could have been. The reason could have been that she loved him and wanted to have lots of sex and babies

, since this might have incited lust, which would have cemented the marriage. Thus the definite danger that would be sex with Tyrion (permanent entrapment with a deformed, whoring Lannister) outweighed any potential benefits (his confiding in her, which would be of no benefit to Sansa until she was in the Vale, an eventuality she could not have anticipated). With Baelish, Sansa deliberately avoids doing anything that he dislikes: with Tyrion, Sansa was coldly courteous. With Petyr, Sansa becomes Alayne who is warm and curious (indeed Alayne is especially curious about the game of thrones), it is only when Littlefinger makes sexual approaches, does Alayne withdraw and cold Sansa emerge. For instance Petyr's statements about Willas Tyrell indicate that he finds piety irritating, and Sansa becomes much less religious

I never thought she was religious, just she went to the sept and the goodswood to get away from everyone else

around Petyr. Indeed Sansa is so completely committed to being Alayne, who perfectly reflects Petyr in everyway, that Petyr has very little way of knowing about Sansa's true feelings, except that she dislikes his sexual advances. In order to overcome these objections Littlefinger tries to seduce her (since Sansa never defies him, he has no reason to rape her) and I think Baelish offers Sansa marriage to Harry the Heir

Yeah I think that's why he said that, I don't think he's telling the truth since the plan is idiotic, but Sansa is too stupid to notice such things.

in order to seduce her (since Sansa stated that she wished to return to Winterfell), treat her like a genuine daughter (since if you had a daughter this is what you would do) and if his plan is genuine, he must see it as a means of furthering his own power. Now if Baelish had offered Harry Harding to Sansa before her marriage to Tyrion, she would have been delighted, yet by late ASOS and early AFFC Sansa seems mostly indifferent to marraige, completely focused on feeling safe and her goal has shifted to be loved purely for herself and not her claim, hence her sexual fantasies about the Hound (who loved her even without concern for her claim).

Now since Littlefinger does not make her feel safe (his incestous sexual approaches), and cannot love her for herself, he himself is unable to satisfy Sansa's post-Tyrion goals. His alternative candidate that he thinks might satisfy Sansa's goals (as Petyr perceives them, Sansa is very careful to never share her them), Harry the Heir, is also unable to satisfy Sansa's need to be loved

How do you know she has a need to be loved?

(since Harry the Heir is rumoured to be Robert Baratheon 0.2), the only thing that Harry really offers Sansa is return to Winterfell. However if Rickon were to re-emerge, then Sansa would be able to return to Winterfell without needing to engage in marriage (something that she now views with skepticisim). If Rickon were to re-emerge, Petyr would no longer hold a monopoly on the being the only person who could help Sansa fulfil her goal to return to Winterfell. I suppose if Petyr were a rational person

He is a rational person. I don't think expects Sansa's claim to winterfell to ever be honored

, this wouldn't bother him and he would allow her to go back to cold Winterfell. Yet there is every indication that Petyr is not a rational person:

There is not. There's every indication he is one of the few rational people in Westeros

, It is obvious that Petyr wants power for it's own sake and desires to gain power at any cost. This leads to option A) for Petyr, Rickon (Ned's son) would be a pawn of Stannis, therefore to have this boy as Lord of Winterfell, would be inimical to Petyr's interests

I don't think he cares about Winterfell at all. If he did he could have asked for instead of Harrenhall

,.

Whilst Sansa (who could have been the daughter that he never had with Catelyn, but could also be his ersatz Catelyn) someone he perceives as submissive, tractable and completely grateful to him would be a preferable lord of Winterfell, since Sansa would be his pawn, whilst Rickon would be Stannis's pawn. This would also give Petyr motive to kill Sansa's only known surviving family member.... If Petyr was truly indifferent to the North, this leads to option B} Petyr would be happy making Sansa lady of Riverrun or wife-then-widow of Harry the Heir (thus enabling Petyr to rule these areas through Sansa) the fact that Sansa wants neither Riverrun or the Eyrie means that the very fact of Rickon's existence means that as soon as Rickon re-emerges, Petyr loses the only thing that he offered Sansa that Sansa really wanted, which was return to Winterfell. Finally option C) Even if Petyr has contingincies for ruling the Vale without the Harry-Sansa marriage, and thinks he can hold the Riverlands through his seat at Harrenhal. The question of "why did Baelish bother kidnapping Sansa?" becomes even more pertinent, since if Baelish doesn't need Sansa for her claim to Winterfell, Riverrun and as a spouse of Harry Harding, then the only thing he needs her for is lust...

uhhh... No Shit. She looks like 15 year old Catelyn.

,

since Baelish cannot love Sansa for herself (even his physical attraction to her is based on her resemblance to Catelyn Tully) and people are merely objects or things to Petyr Baelish, he would dispose of Sansa when was no longer able to satisfy his sexual whims/need to feel powerful

"whims/need to feel powerful" believe they call that love

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

. Needless to say not only does Sansa not return Baelish's sexual felings, but the re-emergence of Rickon would mean that Baelish would lose the only thing

She could go long with it because she loves him and wants to have lots of sex and babies.

,that would motivate Sansa to go along with Baelish's lust. Option A) means that Rickon, Sansa's only known surviving relative

She as a half brother she treated liked shit, the same way she treated her sister, he's still around. And as far as she knows Arya is the Lady of Winterfell and ruling over it right now.

,would be a threat to Littlefinger's interests. whilst options B] and C) mean that Sansa herself would be less valuable in Littlefingers eyes. I think that Sansa, should she hear of Rickon's survival (towards the end of TWOW at the latest), would assume option A), so that even if option B or C were actually true, Sansa's belief in option A, would be the guiding force of her actions. Given that Sansa by the end of ASOS had already watched Baelish murder Ser Dontos, Lysa, and accuse Marillion of murder...Which means that Sansa is aware that Littlefinger is happy to kill people when he no longer has a use for them/they threaten his interests and also makes Sansa's inner transformation into Alayne much more explicable: she knew she had to be what Littlefinger wanted, otherwise he would be indifferent to her. Sansa, by the end of AFFC is subtly aware that anything that renders her less valuable in Littlefingers eyes, would make Littlefinger indifferent to her, and when Littlefinger is indifferent to people, he has no use for them, and when he has no use for people he kills them. Therefore, since Sansa automatically

Why would you assume that? I don't think Sansa care's very much about her siblings, she treated Arya like shit, she treated Jon like shit. When she's in custody, she doesn't even remember to ask about Arya. When Jeyne Poole disappears, Sansa never thinks about her again.

,values Rickon's life above Petyr's, she has a motive to employ Chekhov's hairnet against Petyr, not because Petyr would be stupid enough to confide his plans to have Sansa's only surviving relative assassinated, if indeed that was his plan, since option B and C could easily be true, but Sansa would prabably assume option A), and make her plans accordingly. Whilst I personally would like Petyr to be brought to trial and executed, thus making Sansa's arc somewhat more intellectual** Indeed if Petyr was actually motivated or aiming for options b and c, part of the irony would be that Petyr, who acted so randomly and untrustworthily, would be killed not for anything he did or anything he was actually planning to do, but because his perceived untrustworthyness made him a threat to a beloved person

Yeah that's why he should stop telling her things and kill her.

,. The only similar murder to this would be Olenna Tyrell's plot against Joffrey-a plot Petyr participated in-since Joffrey was killed because his random violence made him a threat to Margaery. Thus Petyr-whose ability to plot randomly was based on the fact that people like Tywin Lannister and Eddard Stark (one completely evil the other nearly completely good, yet neither man listened) did not perceive him as a threat and therefore trusted Petyr whilst distaining Littlefinger, being poisoned because Sansa, someone whose whole character arc is about powerlessness and defenceless, poisoning Petyr because she did not trust Littlefinger not to threaten Rickon. For added irony this would be the epilogue chapter of TWOW and Petyr would be thinking option C), all the while unable to realise that Sansa believes option A, until he starts to choke... *Interestingly enough these humble, stereotypically feminine goals put Sansa in direct conflict with Petyr Baelish's goals, since, as WOW pointed out, these goals

I don't know what. goals you're referring to

are inimical to the pursuit of power for its own sake, yet Sansa is widely suspected

No she isn't.

to be the politician of the Stark family... This seems strange, but also brilliant: without magical ability or the ability to inflict violence (neither ability is especially useful for achieving such goals anyway), the only way Sansa would be able to achieve these apparently trivial goals would be to live in a peaceful and pleasant society, Since Westeros is so anarchic and violent, the only way to ensure the safety of a bunch of children, a loving marriage, and prosperity is to obtain power.

When people like Sansa gain power it becomes possible for them to enforce peace and influence society to become more pleasant.

She could if she wasn't an idiot. Her mother wasn't an idiot. But neither was she opposed to war

** Petyrs tendency to confide in Sansa, and Lysa's final confession, could be indications that Petyr is one of those literary t.

he's not a villain. there're aren't any villains in a song of ice and fire, just people

villains who has to be disposed of legally (Hands Clean), rather than simple poison.

Personally I think intelligent villains should be disposed of intelligently (aka Hands Clean/the judicial process). But Martin does like irony, and he did say that their would be no heroes... It is worth noting that Petyr's confessions are only so much that they give Sansa subtle clues about his character and way of thinking, not enough that she would have concrete evidence against him. the distinction between execution and poison is not arbitary: for instance if we poisoned everyone who threatened us we could end up killing an innocent person, who never meant us any harm. For this reason, understandable as Lysa Tully's actions where, poisoning Jon Arryn was not right,

whatever.

since he wasn't actually going to send his sickly child to a malignant narcissist like Tywin (I think since Jon Arryn had met Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion he would know that Tywin could not rear children), but because Lysa acted

No we was going to send him Stannis so he could burn him and make a stone giant.

on misinformation (specifically Petyr told her that Jon Arryn was going to send Sweet Robin to Tywin), she poisoned a man who had kept the realm afloat under Robert's mismanagement. Even if my supposition that Jon Arryn was infertile were true, and that continous marriage to him was against her interests (to bear healthy children) murdering Jon Arryn was unnecessary since Lysa had been having an affair for years anyway (hence Sweet Robin). That is why the state is given the job of executing people: They may have more information, greater objectively (ie not locked in a miserable marriage), and above all more reasonable criteria for execution: for instance marriage to an infertile man might be grounds for divorce in our society, and even though Westeros only has annulments, the fact remains that being infertile does not make someone worthy of death, since infertile people still contribute to society. I guess what I am trying to say, is that since everybody suffers from conflicts of interest at one time or another, and if everyone acted to eliminate those people with whom they had conflicts of interest, we would be in Thomas Hobbes state of nature:

Yes. And if Petyr lived in the 21st century. He wouldn't go around murdering people. He does it because he lives in Westeros and those are the rules the lords of Westeros play by, Tywin, Roose, Hoster, Olena, Martell, et al.

" In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." The rule of law, means that even when people who have conflicts of interest, it is not permitted to murder the weaker or stupider one, since weak and stupid people are able to contribute in their own way (women, the physically weakest and least educated members of pre-modern societies, were basically kept alive because they contributed babies). Yet because there are people who are outside of societys' norms of morality

I don't think they're out of the norms, I tink they're suffering from mental defect. Which cannot be reasoned away or eliminated by politeness and lemon cakes.

(Ramsay Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy) whose goals are inherently inimical to others (since their goal is sadism for it's own sake), thus when they are found in places like America, they are executed, and when they are found out in Australia, they are imprisoned... Whilst I have said that poison and murder are unacceptable in a peaceful society, it is true that the fastest most effective way to get rid of a tyrant is not the judicial process, but assassination. Because the need of society to be tyranny free needs to be gained quickly, and tyrants often have vast amounts of power at their disposal, thus assassination is the most effective way to seek an end to tyranny. For me personally:

He's no more a Tyrant than John Arryn. He's not more a Tyrant than the average lord in Westeros

if I look at Petyr as tyrant then poison is acceptable, if I look at Petyr as a criminal then the judicial process is necessary. Which leads me to the problem of tyranny and authoritarianism. The problem with authoritarian regimes, is that they view people as objects, rather than people, thus a completely rational authoritarian regime would judge someone's continous right to life on the basis of what their usefulness, rather than how they treat other people. This doesn't seem all that wrong: I mean surely Ted Bundy the lawyer contributes far more than that little girl with down-syndrome who scares away pigeons from KFC? Yet because the university students murdered by Ted Bundy would've made far contributions to society then Ted could, it is better to have 5 girls with down-syndrome than a single Ted Bundy, since a single Ted Bundy murders 27+ university students. Yet in such an authoritarian regime, someone like Ted would thrive... killing children with down-syndrome. Now because authoritarian regimes are not rational, but rather hubristic, not only do people like Ted Bundy thrive, but the targets are often completely off: for instance in their hubris, Communist regimes thought they could do without Kulaks, Nazism thought Germany could do without Jews, and so on... We also come to the second problem of authoritarian regimes: since the Ted Bundy's, Mengeles, Lavrenty Beria (fictional Westeros has Qyburn Ramsay Bolton, and Gregor Clegane) are basically having a great time staffing gulags or concentration camps, there comes a second, less sadistic and slightly more intelligent group of psychopaths, these are the people who end up in charge. This group includes Stalin, Hitler etc (in fictional Westeros ironically only Stannis comes close, perhaps the closest after that would be Tywin): they treat people like objects or things, and are thus willing to do almost anything to stay in power. Yet despite the fact that they lack the same personal physical sadism, they tend have a hugely broad definition of people who can be treated as objects, Fascism for instance, is the ideology of racial hubris, and this did not actually work. Now real life tyrants are usually ideologically driven, and it is my personal opinion that GRRM shows his leftwing leanings, when he makes his greatest villains

Seriously. There aren't any an Villains. Tywin was a good leader by Westerosi standards.

(Tywin, Baelish and Roose) desire pure power, since on the basis of real world experience it should ironically be Stannis,* who would be the most evil. Yet GRRM hasn't done that, instead his villains are basically driven by pure hubris, rather than batty ideology. This is a huge weakness, for even though Nazism and Communism are the ideologies of racial and class hubris respectively, it is the group aspects that make these ideologies so attractive to non psychopaths. For whilst there is nothing attractive about the ideology of

I enjoy Roose, he's quite amusing.

"loving Roose Bolton" unless you are Roose Bolton, where as the ideology of loving the working class or loving Aryan-ness, is attractive if you are working classs or an Aryan, when you are attracted to this ideology, you maybe willing to die for it and kill for it. Furthermore the fact that Tywin is driven

he isn't

by pure hubris causes him to make very stupid mistakes. Roose's

he won't kill him because ken slayers are accursed. the same treason tywin won't kill tyrion. I actually think Roose is trying to get Ramsay killed.

hubris caused him to let Ramsay live after the Domeric incident, and Baelish's

I think you mean love. did you mean love and not hubris?

hubris causes him to confide in the daughter of his enemy. *my position on Stannis is that before his conversion to R'hllor he was morally the equivalent of The Russian Provisional Government and that after his conversion to a religion utterly inimical to anything practiced in Westeros, he became rather like Lenin, only he has Stalin's charisma and Mao's determination. The reason Stannis doesn't fall into complete monstrosity, is that he is not completely obsessed with this false and inimical ideology, thus a little bit of his old sense of justice remains. Ultimately I believe that after Stannis gets rid of the Boltons and marshalls the forces against the Ice Zombies/White Walkers, he will have fulfilled his purpose and he will die (at whoever's hands).

Yeah that's not going to happen. Stannis is not going end up fighting the Others. And I also don't think the Others are evil or the "bad guys". As far as doing before and after comparisons on Stannis, the only Stannis we meet is the one influenced by Melisandre but no one liked him before that. That how he got stuck of dragon stone to begin with. And he was "brutally just" in Robert's Rebellion.

“Well I remember.” Renly lifted his chin to allow Brienne to fasten his gorget in place. “Near the end, Ser Gawen Wylde and three of his knights tried to steal out a postern gate to surrender.

Stannis caught them and ordered them flung from the walls with catapults. I can still see Gawen’s face as they strapped him down. He had been our master-at-arms.”

Lord Rowan appeared puzzled. “No men were hurled from the walls. I would surely remember that.”

“Maester Cressen told Stannis that we might be forced to eat our dead, and there was no gain in flinging away good meat.” Renly pushed back his hair. Brienne bound it with a velvet tie and pulled a padded cap down over his ears, to cushion the weight of his helm. “Thanks to the Onion Knight we were never reduced to dining on corpses, but it was a close thing. Too close for Ser Gawen, who died in his cell.”

Tywin was allegedly much kinder and smiled and was happy before his wife died. Tyrion would be nicer if not for Tysha and Petyr if not for Hoster Tully, What of it? Oh, You want your cake and you want to eat it too?

“Was that all it was?” That seemed to sadden her. “Men say that Tywin never smiled, but he smiled when he wed your mother, and when Aerys made him Hand. When Tarbeck Hall came crashing down on Lady Ellyn, that scheming bitch, Tyg claimed he smiled then. And he smiled at your birth, Jaime, I saw that with mine own eyes. You and Cersei, pink and perfect, as alike as two peas in a pod... well, except between the legs. What lungs you had!”

“Hear us roar.” Jaime grinned. “Next you’ll be telling me how much he liked to laugh.”

.....“No. Tywin mistrusted laughter. He heard too many people laughing at your grandsire.” She frowned....

His aunt looked at him strangely. “I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give my hand to Emm. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a thirdborn son, and younger children crave the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and Father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the west in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare’s milk, and Walder Frey was quivering.” She smiled. “How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became... but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little.” She gave a sigh. “Who will protect us now?”

[Jayaris]

She could go long with it because she loves him and wants to have lots of sex and babies.

I found this hilarious, what a dim view of the world and in particular the female gender you have.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

But he doesn't, Sweetrobin has the Vale and Harry is his heir. Littlefinger only has power over the Vale's resources in so far as he is able to persuade people (by which I mean the Lords of the Vale) that using those resources is in the best interests of Sweetrobin and / or Harry. This is the point, he hasn't gained anything, so far, in the Vale. But being there has allowed him to preserve his freedom of movement and it gives him a legitimate excuse to stay away from Kings Landing which in turn allows him to avoid being seen to take sides before he knows who is going to win control.

yeah... and how is that different than any other liege lord in Westeros. You say this like any of the lords have any legitimacy beyond their ability to coarse and cajole others to recognize their authority.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I found this hilarious, what a dim view of the world and in particular the female gender you have.

what? why?

[Jayaris]

what? why?

Any love would be Stockholm Syndromesque and she isn't going to enter into a relationship because she wants to have lots of sex, if that's what she wanted she could ask Littlefinger for a position in his brothel - He kindly accommodated Jeyne Poole when she asked :)

As far as the naming children after siblings go, like you say Sansa isn't a model sister - But, she came from a respectable family it would seem a hollow effort to name the what would be psychologically flawed off-spring of Petyr after them (dysfunctional relationships, dysfunctional children)

That's why I think your view of the world is hilarious, because you think any of these scenarios are okay..