How many wildlings and Westerosi are there?

[Barty]

Population of the North is way more than some people seem to think. Just consider this - Nymeria landed with 10,000 ships in dorne - thats about a million people if you take a modest figure of 100 people per ship. The Martells were already there - so Dorne's population at this point should be 2-5 million - add to that about a thousand years of slow population growth and the population of dorne is around 20 million. Its also clearly stated that Dorne is the least populous of the seven kingdoms - so the population of the North must be around 30 million, and of whole westeros around 200-300 million

[Uncat]

Yepp, and the Greeks went to Troy with a thousend ships. And Xerxes had a million soldiers, when he tried to invade Greece a thousend years later. Legends exagerate wastly and GRRM pourposly created legegends for Westeros applaying this mechanics of legendbuilding. I would assume some two hundred or maybe three or four hunderd ships, bearing an average of a hundred people.

[Uncat]

Still got troubles with the board. Double post...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I supose, that the real size of Westeros has been discussed for ages. But I still have the feeling, that the "real Westeros" - the land GRRM has before his inner eye while writing is a lot smaller then the one he pinns on the maps. It always seems to grow, when Martin needs to establish traveling times and distances. I never bothered to sit down and work it out but the feeling remains. E.g. it takes Brienne and company days to make it from Maidenpool to Crab Claw Point though they are only few and mounted. But on the other hand the King Robert and his huge company make it from Kings Landing to Winterfell in such a reasonable time, that he can allow himself to bring all his court and family on the trip (such a party would travel slow while it starts late and stops early in the day. After all, it takes some time to pack and unpack all that stuff a king, a queen and their lords and ladies think they can't do without). Yet the travel distance seems to be about 900 leagues wich would make for roughly the same distance as New York and Los Angeles (about four two and half thousend miles or four thousend kilometres).

The timeline there is misleading. From Ned getting Bobs message that he is on the way till the party is in Kings Landing, several months pass, maybe even a full year. It is just compressed in a few chapters without much happening leading to a compressed travel time.

Nymeria is three quarters grown when she attacks Joffrey. Regular wolves need a year to grow to full size, and direwolves as bigger and more intelligent animals probably longer.

Jon gets halfway through training and meets Sam weeks after he arrived at the Wall, but still way before Ned enters Kings Landing.

Cat spends weeks with Bran, travels to White Harbour, takes a ship to Kings Landing and waits for weeks again.

I'd estimate the travel time at three to six months one way.

[Mummer's Fart]

In subsistence farming, even 1% of the population missing is a pretty big hit and the maximum what could be achieved without the economy crashing.

Rome isn't an agrarian economy like Westeros, it's a city state.

And even with 40 million inhabitants Westeros is less populated than Europe at its all time low around 500. Compared to 1340 Europe, Westeros should have 150 million inhabitants.

Rome was not a city-state. Even under the Etruscan kings, it was part of a realm of sorts. In the Republican period, predating the Principate, Roman citizenship was attainable for many of the tribes and cities of Italy, depending on their relationship with Rome and the Senate.

Europe's population at an "all-time low" in 500 doesn't make any sense. Prior to the arrival of human beings to Europe, was the "all time low" you're referring to.

Do you have a particle of evidence that most of the city of Rome's food came from Egypt as opposed to Italy as I said?

If you don't have evidence, then you can shut the hell up and cut it out with these irrelevant, trolling comments.

Yeah, during certain periods like at the onset of the Principate period, Italy's burgeoning population required food imports. Remember that civil war fought between Augustus and Antony? Well the reason Antony set up shop in Alexandria was because it was Rome's bread basket, it was a strong position from which to rebel. It's what made him such a threat to the power of Augustus and Rome. It's why after Antony was cast down, Augustus started the practice of never appointing Patricians (nobles) to the position of Prefect of Egypt, only equestrians (knights) were thought to be suitable, since an equestrian would have a harder time using Egypt's strategic importance to usurp the throne.

Is that particle enough for you? Then again, a 10 second google search could have told you that and you wouldn't need to insult people to make your argument.

[Uncat]

@Bright Blue Eyes

Thank you for the trouble to write this up, looks like Westeros is that big after all :)

[AelinorTarg]

As for this...no, I'm afraid it won't do. 25,000-35,000 for Pyke? You taking the Mickey? If that were true, they'd have no problem capturing the North. They wouldn't have to resort to dastardly (and ultimately unsuccessful) backstabbing strategies. 55,000 widely scattered troops could not possibly fight a two front war.

40,000 for Vale? If that were true, then Robb getting the Vale on his side would mean instant victory. He doesn't say that. He says something along the lines of, "Those Vale knights could make all the difference in this war." He does not say Vale means instant victory.

40,000 Riverlands? If that were true, then Robb would have greater numbers than the Lannisters, even if you don't count 35,000, by your reckoning, troops he left behind.

I don't think Dorne has 30,000 men. Doran thinks it fields the smallest army of all the seven kingdoms. 10,000-15,000 seems a more sober estimate.

Dorne has more than 30.000 men. Quentin promised Daenerys 50,000 spears. It's unclear wether ''spears'' is a figure speech for soldiers or they also have swordmen or soldiers wielding specific weapons

[Barbosch]

Dorne has more than 30.000 men. Quentin promised Daenerys 50,000 spears. It's unclear wether ''spears'' is a figure speech for soldiers or they also have swordmen or soldiers wielding specific weapons

i think it was to conwince her to marry him, not to mirror real strength of Dorne

[Free Northman]

i think it was to conwince her to marry him, not to mirror real strength of Dorne

In any case, I find it highly unlikely that the entire force of one of the Seven Kingdoms would number less than the forces of some of the bannermen to other Kingdoms.

As an example, Lord Paxter Redwynne has 200 warships. With 100 men per ship, that's 20,000 men.

Lord Hightower can raise 10,000 men in very short order, and probably 20,000 if given enough time.

Wyman Manderly is also in the 10,000 region.

The Prince of Dorne MUST be on another level to a lesser lord from anywhere in the Kingdom. Dorne cannot have less than 25,000 - 30,000 men.

[Jedi Master Hot Pie]

It wouldn't have much more than that as a grand total.

Dorne is the weakest of the Seven Kingdoms.

Doran also confirms that 50,000 spears is a lie.

[drigoly]

The iron Islands have the same landmass as Ireland? It sure doesn't look so in the maps. Where did you get that information?

GrrM said that Westeros is nearly the same size as south america, so iron islands = size of ireland or britain.

[Barbosch]

In any case, I find it highly unlikely that the entire force of one of the Seven Kingdoms would number less than the forces of some of the bannermen to other Kingdoms. As an example, Lord Paxter Redwynne has 200 warships. With 100 men per ship, that's 20,000 men. Lord Hightower can raise 10,000 men in very short order, and probably 20,000 if given enough time. Wyman Manderly is also in the 10,000 region. The Prince of Dorne MUST be on another level to a lesser lord from anywhere in the Kingdom. Dorne cannot have less than 25,000 - 30,000 men.

All these people are mustered in time of HIGHEST need. If these lord's could muster these men so easily, then The Reach and the Tyrrels could win easily against half of Westeros. I think that even beside vassals and vassals of vassals there still is game for power and prestige, so they can LIE abot true strength in arms.

The true question is: Is Doran and Martells have enough authority, power, respect to demand so much people from their vassals? i think, that due to cautious character of Doran, not.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

What I'm interested in is an educated guess about how many Wildlings made it through the Wall? I think that at the start of the rush to the wall there were about 100.000 at least. I don't think that anything less would be a viably sustainable population, given the dangers of the Others, winter, and wild beasts. The lands beyond the wall are quite large, and its true that they are not very populated, but we see that wildlings reproduce like rabbits, and they refresh the numbers they lose periodically (not fast enough to be noticeable right now, though). I'm not sure how many died at the battle at the Wall, nor how many left for Thenn later (I think at very best a couple of thousands). Tormund alone had thousands of Wildlings with him.

And one more thing. Contrary to how they depicted it in the show, I always imagined the Lands beyond the Wall to be quite forested, all the way to the lands of always winter. Am I wrong in this?

[Chapmann]

What I'm interested in is an educated guess about how many Wildlings made it through the Wall? I think that at the start of the rush to the wall there were about 100.000 at least. I don't think that anything less would be a viably sustainable population, given the dangers of the Others, winter, and wild beasts. The lands beyond the wall are quite large, and its true that they are not very populated, but we see that wildlings reproduce like rabbits, and they refresh the numbers they lose periodically (not fast enough to be noticeable right now, though). I'm not sure how many died at the battle at the Wall, nor how many left for Thenn later (I think at very best a couple of thousands). Tormund alone had thousands of Wildlings with him.

I'm not sure how many wildlings actually made it through the Wall and how many are running around after being scattered by Stannis. What I've been wondering for a while is if Mance Rayder managed to get all available wildlings on his side or if there were other villages and clans still out there who decided not to join him. I guess many of them would now be wights anyway if the refused to join him.

And one more thing. Contrary to how they depicted it in the show, I always imagined the Lands beyond the Wall to be quite forested, all the way to the lands of always winter. Am I wrong in this?

No you are not wrong. On the map the area is depicted as forested and from the descriptions of the Fist of the First Men, Craster's Keep, Whitetree etc in the books we can probably guess that most of the area is forested.

[Jedi Master Hot Pie]

It seems to be that the Frostfangs and the land directly around it, which includes the Fist, are being portrayed as ice fields and glaciers whilst the Haunted Forest is still being portrayed as the Haunted Forest.

Quite a few Wildlings died before Stannis arrived, when he arrived and after he arrived. Tormund had something like 4000 didn't he? And the Weeper probably has a similar number. One Wilding dude took some back north to the lands of the Thenn and the rest are at Hardhome I guess. There are probably still plenty that are close to the wall who aren't with Tormund or the Weeper, but from the sounds of things only half of the Wildlings are left. The rest are lying facedown in the snow, burnt or wandering around with blue eyes.

[Free Northman]

What I'm interested in is an educated guess about how many Wildlings made it through the Wall? I think that at the start of the rush to the wall there were about 100.000 at least. I don't think that anything less would be a viably sustainable population, given the dangers of the Others, winter, and wild beasts. The lands beyond the wall are quite large, and its true that they are not very populated, but we see that wildlings reproduce like rabbits, and they refresh the numbers they lose periodically (not fast enough to be noticeable right now, though). I'm not sure how many died at the battle at the Wall, nor how many left for Thenn later (I think at very best a couple of thousands). Tormund alone had thousands of Wildlings with him.

And one more thing. Contrary to how they depicted it in the show, I always imagined the Lands beyond the Wall to be quite forested, all the way to the lands of always winter. Am I wrong in this?

Yes. The show depicted the Lands beyond the Wall as Iceland, when they are in fact like southern Canada. On the map, the Haunted Forest stretches for 600-800 miles NORTH of the Wall. The Fist of the First Men is also surrounded by heavy forest.

And Bran, despite travelling north for weeks after passing beyond the Wall, arrives at the Three Eyed Crow's cave in an area surrounded by forest. In fact, the Cave of the Children is located under a huge network of weirwood trees.

The point is, the lands of the Wildlings are forested. They are not arctic, as depicted in the show.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

I might have come up with an idea.

In the Theon chapter from TWoW, Stannis says :

"I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers."

Stannis had about 5000-6000 people at that time. So, there were between 100.000 and 120.000 wildlings fighting on the Wall at the time. That doesn't count in non-martial Wildlings. And I don't think that every Wildling was at the wall then, because its difficult rallying every man and woman in any case (Granted probably only very small number chose to stay behind, maybe a couple of thousands at the very best).

I'm sorry if this was brought up, I didn't read the whole thread because of all the arguments.

[Free Northman]

I might have come up with an idea.

In the Theon chapter from TWoW, Stannis says :

"I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers."

Stannis had about 5000-6000 people at that time. So, there were between 100.000 and 120.000 wildlings fighting on the Wall at the time. That doesn't count in non-martial Wildlings. And I don't think that every Wildling was at the wall then, because its difficult rallying every man and woman in any case (Granted probably only very small number chose to stay behind, maybe a couple of thousands at the very best).

I'm sorry if this was brought up, I didn't read the whole thread because of all the arguments.

Nope. Stannis had about 1500 men if I recall correctly, which would make Jon's estimate of Mance army at about 30,000 spot on.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

Nope. Stannis had about 1500 men if I recall correctly, which would make Jon's estimate of Mance army at about 30,000 spot on.

Really? I was under the impression that at that point he had at least a few thousand men.

EDIT: You are pretty much correct. But did Stannis count the brothers of the Night's watch as his own men, seeing himself as the King and all?

[Free Northman]

Really? I was under the impression that at that point he had at least a few thousand men.

EDIT: You are pretty much correct. But did Stannis count the brothers of the Night's watch as his own men, seeing himself as the King and all?

I think that would be stretching it. He was claiming the glory, hence he was talking about the charge of his knights that broke the wildlings.