Revealing of Jon Snow's mother

[Meddler]

You say this:

And then follow up with this:

Pure speculation on your part with no evidence. And Rhaegar was already dead.

Totally agree with you.

And here's the thing: I think all of us agree with you that it is inconceivable that Arthur Dayne and the other members of the Kingsguard could stand by and watch atrocitiies being performed on the innocents and do nothing, And if those atrocities were performed on members of your family, wouldn't any one of us intervene?

If Aerys did rape Ashara, it may have proven to be "the tipping point" for at least 3 members of the Kingsguard. Jaime Lannister certainly reached his during the sack of KL. Maybe Ashara didn't tell Arthur and maybe the Kingsguard don't gossip amongst themselves, so he didn't know.

These were men of honor who took knightly oaths to abide by a strict code of conduct. Further vows are made upon being raised to the Kingsguard. As we see in Jaime's storyline, these oaths can conflict with each other, without clear guidelines on what they are to do then.. I think we see that Jaime and Barristan are tormented souls because of this.

I think that GRRM is trying to show us that honor is not something that can be defined by a set of rules, the guiding principle in the end should be love for the greater purpose or good.

One of the odd things and possible keys to this is Gerold Hightower. As Lord Commander, it would have been he to whom a conflicted Arthur Dayne may have looked for guidance, and both were obviously present at the ToJ, but it's also Hightower who reminds Jaimie that it's not his duty to judge the king as they watched Rickard and Brandon die. That means he was not with Rhaegar and Lyanna when they initially disappeared. Then again, he also wasn't at the trident, so it seems he took off to join up with Lyanna at some point after Brandon and Rickard were killed but before the Trident.

Did something else happen in between these events that broke him? Was he being partly disigenuous to Jaimie when saying this? None of them knew Jaimie very well at this point, as he'd only been on the Kingsguard for about a year, so it's possible Hightower was just repeating a talking point rather than giving him his true opinion. However, it seems that even if Arthur Dayne did "break" at Harrenhal, Gerold Hightower did not. Dayne was also Rhaegar's close friend, so if anyone was likely to be accompanying Rhaegar during this time, it was him.

One possibility might have to do with what Jaimie remembers Rhaegar telling him before he left, about how after the battle, he was going to do something he should have done a long time ago, which is assumed by many to be deposing of Aerys in some fashion. If Rhaegar had discussed something similar with Hightower, and Hightower agreed, that's probably the most likely time Hightower would have left to go protect Lyanna and abandon the King.

[MtnLion]

No, it just says "at Harrenhal|". And what, I wonder, does "dishonored" mean exactly?

disgrace woman by seduction or rape: to bring shame on a woman by having sexual intercourse with her before marriage or by raping her ( archaic or literary )

[Belandra Waters]

disgrace woman by seduction or rape: to bring shame on a woman by having sexual intercourse with her before marriage or by raping her ( archaic or literary )

Wow..I guess we're not reading too much into the word then. I was wondering if Rhaegar had "dishonored" Elia by crowning Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, so this pretty much answers that!

Thanks...and the more I think about it, the more I like your theory re Aerys!

[MtnLion]

This makes a whole lot of sense! I think you're onto something here! Have you developed your theory more regarding Ashara's baby and what might have really happened?

My thoughts on this took a roundabout way back to the source. I started with believing Varys’ story about fAegon. I knew that fAegon is fake in some way, and is not an heir to the Iron Throne. What possible way can Daenerys discredit him? Well, suppose his mother is Ashara, and he is bastard born of rape by Aerys. Then he would have his Targaryen features. What method would Daenerys use to disprove his standing as an heir? It makes a lot of sense if Lemore is Ashara that she will know the truth about his paternity.

Barristan tells us that he believes Ashara delivered a stillborn daughter. Ashara and Elia were close friends, and spent a great deal of time together before the war. They were both at Harrenhal for the Tourney, and Elia showed no signs of pregnancy then, though it is known that she delivered before the war started. (It makes sense that Rhaegar approached Lyanna after Elia is pronounced unfit for further pregnancies. Lyanna went with Rhaegar, leading to Robert’s claim of kidnapping, which triggers Brandon’s wild ride to King’s Landing, etc.)

The two girls have a motive to switch the babies. Elia does nto want to disappoint Rhaegar with the stillborn girl (girls are not heirs in Targaryen lineage). Ashara does not want to raise a bastard boy, who really deserves a chance to inherit. So, while still in their birthing beds they swap the babies. Rhaegar receives a healthy baby boy, that he names Aegon. Barristan hears that Ashara delivered a stillborn girl.

When the Lannisters start sacking King’s Landing Varys may have used a spider hole in the Red Keep to exchange babies, thinking that he was saving a Targaryen heir. He may have used his spies to solicit Ashara’s assistance with raising the child as a king. Secrecy would be paramount, because if Robert ever found out, Varys could be a head shorter very quickly. It seems that sheltering Viserys and Daenerys as cover for the true heir would be a good move, as long as he doesn’t become directly entangled with them. Explaining Varys’ willingness to assassinate them, and why he kept Jorah Mormont as an inside spy.

So, we have Ashara’s and Aerys' bastard son in the company of Jon Connington, affectionately referred to as fAegon by many board members. While his name is really Waters, he claims Targaryen.

[Maester Tormund]

So, we have Ashara’s bastard son with Jon Connington, affectionately referred to as fAegon by many board members. While his name is really Waters, he claims Targaryen.

JonCon was confirmed to be gay and in love with Rhaegar I thought?

[Where Boars Glow]

JonCon was confirmed to be gay and in love with Rhaegar I thought?

I do not support the theory of JonCON being the dad....but you can be gay and still have a child. In fact I think Robert was in denial and trying to hard to prove something.

[MtnLion]

JonCon was confirmed to be gay and in love with Rhaegar I thought?

:rofl: Certainly thought the previous few lines had spelled things out more clearly. Okay, I will fix that, "in the company of" is what is meant. Aerys' bastard son, fAegon, in the company of Jon Connington ... :P

[Belandra Waters]

My thoughts on this took a roundabout way back to the source. I started with believing Varys’ story about fAegon. I knew that fAegon is fake in some way, and is not an heir to the Iron Throne. What possible way can Daenerys discredit him? Well, suppose his mother is Ashara, and he is bastard born of rape by Aerys. Then he would have his Targaryen features. What method would Daenerys use to disprove his standing as an heir? It makes a lot of sense if Lemore is Ashara that she will know the truth about his paternity.

Barristan tells us that he believes Ashara delivered a stillborn daughter. Ashara and Elia were close friends, and spent a great deal of time together before the war. They were both at Harrenhal for the Tourney, and Elia showed no signs of pregnancy then, though it is known that she delivered before the war started. (It makes sense that Rhaegar approached Lyanna after Elia is pronounced unfit for further pregnancies. Lyanna went with Rhaegar, leading to Robert’s claim of kidnapping, which triggers Brandon’s wild ride to King’s Landing, etc.)

The two girls have a motive to switch the babies. Elia does nto want to disappoint Rhaegar with the stillborn girl (girls are not heirs in Targaryen lineage). Ashara does not want to raise a bastard boy, who really deserves a chance to inherit. So, while still in their birthing beds they swap the babies. Rhaegar receives a healthy baby boy, that he names Aegon. Barristan hears that Ashara delivered a stillborn girl.

When the Lannisters start sacking King’s Landing Varys may have used a spider hole in the Red Keep to exchange babies, thinking that he was saving a Targaryen heir. He may have used his spies to solicit Ashara’s assistance with raising the child as a king. Secrecy would be paramount, because if Robert ever found out, Varys could be a head shorter very quickly. It seems that sheltering Viserys and Daenerys as cover for the true heir would be a good move, as long as he doesn’t become directly entangled with them. Explaining Varys’ willingness to assassinate them, and why he kept Jorah Mormont as an inside spy.

So, we have Ashara’s bastard son with Jon Connington, affectionately referred to as fAegon by many board members. While his name is really Waters, he claims Targaryen.

And if Varys switched fAegon with a lowborn baby, Ashara, upon hearing the news that her actual baby had been killed and that is followed by the news of her brother's death...it may well have been enough to cause her to commit suicide , especially If she is the one who disclosed the location of the ToJ to Ned.

Alternatively, Varys relays the news of the baby-switch to her and offers her a chance to go into exile and help raise her own son, so Ashara re-surfaces as Septa Lemore.

I think your theory deserves its own thread!

[Belandra Waters]

JonCon was confirmed to be gay and in love with Rhaegar I thought?

Edit; MtnLion beat me to it.

[MtnLion]

And if Varys switched fAegon with a lowborn baby, Ashara, upon hearing the news that her actual baby had been killed and that is followed by the news of her brother's death...it may well have been enough to cause her to commit suicide , especially If she is the one who disclosed the location of the ToJ to Ned.

Alternatively, Varys relays the news of the baby-switch to her and offers her a chance to go into exile and help raise her own son, so Ashara re-surfaces as Septa Lemore.

I think your theory deserves its own thread!

I like your reasoning. Say that Ashara gives up Lyanna's location (her brother, Arthur's knowledge) to Ned. Ned goes to the Tower of Joy, and her brother dies defending the child, and when Ned returns the sword she learns that her brother is dead, and that her son (Aegon) is dead, she would become despondent. People would notice, and it would be no surprise that she leaps to her death. Behind the scenes Varys offers the chance to raise Aegon in exile, which would definitely improve her outlook on life. Before anyone notices the turn around in outlook she makes the dive from the tower to disappear. No one is surprised that she commits suicide.

[Belandra Waters]

I like your reasoning. Say that Ashara gives up Lyanna's location (her brother, Arthur's knowledge) to Ned. Ned goes to the Tower of Joy, and her brother dies defending the child, and when Ned returns the sword she learns that her brother is dead, and that her son (Aegon) is dead, she would become despondent. People would notice, and it would be no surprise that she leaps to her death. Behind the scenes Varys offers the chance to raise Aegon in exile, which would definitely improve her outlook on life. Before anyone notices the turn around in outlook she makes the dive from the tower to disappear. No one is surprised that she commits suicide.

Exactly!

There may be other posters out there who could poke holes in this theory but, to me, it fits with everything we know and doesn't violate the text in any way. Even the baby switch seems plausible and done for the right reasons.

It still allows the R+L=J theory to remain and Jon to be the rightful heir to the Throne, so that makes me happy!

It's my new favorite theory! So glad you shared it!

[Belandra Waters]

@ MtnLion...just one more interesting tidbit. I was re-reading Barristan's thoughts about the tourney:

"Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there."

Two things that I can think of that would not have happened had Aerys not attended:

Aerys would not have ordered Rhaegar to find the KoLT - which fits into my theory of Rhaegar and Lyanna but not developed enough to post on here yet.

And the dishonoring of Ashara, assuming that Aerys is the perp.

[MtnLion]

My thoughts on Rhaegar and the KotLT is that Rhaegar found the shield and Lyanna. Whether they actively talked at that time, I kind of doubt, but Rhaegar saw enough to realize that Lyanna was a skilled warrior, which fit into his prophecies, perhaps. I believe that he developed a strong respect for Lyanna that he could only show by presenting her with the Crown. It won't be for another nine months or more before he approaches her in a serious manner.

That quote definitely tips the scale in favor of Aerys dishonoring Ashara. It is my belief that Barristan was the unfortunate that stood guard, explaining how he came by the knowledge. I think Ashara would know that making any accusations or telling anyone would be met with the most dire of consequences. And, from Barristan, she is very unlikely to tell him.

[Belandra Waters]

We've derailed the thread! Sorry to the OP. I really encourage you to start a new one and I will copy my comments to it too! Otherwise, I'll ask your permission to start a new one. :)

[ghost of Harrenhall]

Tyrion will probly be the frist to say it out loud.

as for who will tell Jon (I like to be a fly on the wall for that Conservation)

X whos your dad ?

Jon Ned Stark

X ewww! come on, do we realy need more incest!

Jon .....what

X -it ok, you're actually a Dragon baby, so there's only a little incest.

Jon ...........What !

X So how bout that corn?

but for real who will it be

Bran/ Howland seem just a little to easy

I would love to see unCat figure it out and apologize to Jon. one word from Eric Dayne and she would go hunting down Wylla, but I'm not sure if she had anything but vengeance left in her.

still could be Tyrion Or any of the Essos people around him

my money is on Sam thou, or at least in part. He could point out the the similarities between Jon and child of the king beyond the wall. Maybe tell Jon that Ned is hiding some thing more that just a mother too his bastard son. start the ball rolling!

I see Victarion actually being able to capture a Dragon or two. Then bring them home to westeros and loss control of them there. Mel calls on the lord of light to bring one to the wall for the glory Azor Ahai. do you think Jon will know when he is scratching Viserion behind the ear.

[The Manticore Knight]

I think Rhegal would be more apropriated. lol

But I think Azor Ahai is Daenerys, not Jon

[ghost of Harrenhall]

no one knows who AA is but Mel thinks its Stannis. poor BBQed Stannis

[The Great Cornholio!]

One of the odd things and possible keys to this is Gerold Hightower. As Lord Commander, it would have been he to whom a conflicted Arthur Dayne may have looked for guidance, and both were obviously present at the ToJ, but it's also Hightower who reminds Jaimie that it's not his duty to judge the king as they watched Rickard and Brandon die. That means he was not with Rhaegar and Lyanna when they initially disappeared. Then again, he also wasn't at the trident, so it seems he took off to join up with Lyanna at some point after Brandon and Rickard were killed but before the Trident.

Did something else happen in between these events that broke him? Was he being partly disigenuous to Jaimie when saying this? None of them knew Jaimie very well at this point, as he'd only been on the Kingsguard for about a year, so it's possible Hightower was just repeating a talking point rather than giving him his true opinion. However, it seems that even if Arthur Dayne did "break" at Harrenhal, Gerold Hightower did not. Dayne was also Rhaegar's close friend, so if anyone was likely to be accompanying Rhaegar during this time, it was him.

One possibility might have to do with what Jaimie remembers Rhaegar telling him before he left, about how after the battle, he was going to do something he should have done a long time ago, which is assumed by many to be deposing of Aerys in some fashion. If Rhaegar had discussed something similar with Hightower, and Hightower agreed, that's probably the most likely time Hightower would have left to go protect Lyanna and abandon the King.

Maybe it was to announce his marriage to Lyanna.

[Meddler]

Maybe it was to announce his marriage to Lyanna.

I wasn't able to look it up a the time, but the quote was this:

When this battle's done, I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well it does no god to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.

Definitely seems to have a political slant.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Yeah I think its more likely to be dany. Cause she was the one who fits the prophecy the best so far. Only what marywn said has gave me any doubt. Dany woke dragons from stone though. And her arc has been going that way since book one. But her with jon I think truly fufills the prophecy.