Revealing of Jon Snow's mother

[Belandra Waters]

That was what I thought too but on the Wiki they Lyanna was the last one listed in the tree, but come to think of it, they seem to separate by male and female, so nvm. And yes, that makes Benjen no older than 12 or 13, meaning its almost impossible he slept with Ashara. Benjen's age is never stated explicitly in the books, and I'm not even sure it's explicitly stated that he's younger than Lyanna, but that was always my impression. The best reference I can remember from the books is Bran's vision of the two young children playing by the weirwood, which seem to almost certainly be Benjen and Lyanna.

I don't think it is explicitly stated, but in Bran's vision that you mention, he says the girl is older and taller than the boy. Meera, when talking about the tourney, also refers to Benjen as the "wolf pup" which is gender-neutral, so I think those are the main reasons that it's believed Benjen is the youngest.

Some posters also point out that Benjen did not participate in Robert's Rebellion but instead was the "Stark in Winterfell", possibly indicating also that he was too young to fight in the war (and Lyanna would have been around 15 years old during this time frame).

[Belandra Waters]

Jon's mother is quite clearly Lyanna. Jon's father is quite clearly Rhaegar. There is no other logical explanation for what was said and done when Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy.

Barristan recalls that a man dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, fully two years before Jon was born. Ask yourselves how does Barristan know that Ashara was dishonored. Ask yourselves why Barristan would not know who dishonored his love object if he knew that she was dishonored. Ask yourselves who is the one person that Barristan would never name, even in his thoughts.

No one is going to accuse the king of rape, especially if the king is Aerys. So, Ashara most likely was dishonored by Aerys at Harrenhal (the first time he had left the Red Keep since Barristan rescued him).

This makes a whole lot of sense! I think you're onto something here! Have you developed your theory more regarding Ashara's baby and what might have really happened?

[sumant30]

Barristan recalls that a man dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, fully two years before Jon was born. Ask yourselves how does Barristan know that Ashara was dishonored. Ask yourselves why Barristan would not know who dishonored his love object if he knew that she was dishonored. Ask yourselves who is the one person that Barristan would never name, even in his thoughts.

No one is going to accuse the king of rape, especially if the king is Aerys. So, Ashara most likely was dishonored by Aerys at Harrenhal (the first time he had left the Red Keep since Barristan rescued him).

I don't think even Barristan Selmy would have let that happen.And don't give some any theories if you don't have any evidence for it.The kingsguard was made of honorable men and what about Arthur Dayne how can he tolerate his own sister getting raped by aerys?

[intheswamp]

Benjen doesn't seem a likely candidate for Jon's father or as the person that dishonored Ashara, but maybe he assisted Lyanna in running away.

I think L and B were close as children, they were the two youngest and Bran's flashback showed them sparring.

Benjen offered to provide H with armor to defend his honor, when H didn't do it, L had B help her. R tracked her down after the tourney and yadda yadda yadda. Perhaps, B was with her when he caught up, he believed R about the whole 3 dragon heads thing, he helped her flee with R, etc...

It might explain why he had to stay in Winterfell during the war, despite likely being old enough to fight. Perhaps, he felt guilty about it all and joined the black or was made to by E when he found out about his involvement. Also, it seems strange for one of the few living members of a major house to take the black instead of marrying and trying to mend some of the war wounds and replenish the Stark line. (Although, I think he waited until Cat had kids to join the Watch, so he might have gotten married if it had been necessary.)

Anyways, just a crackpot theory that Benjen was part of the L and R fling.

Also, considering, the kingsguard were guarding Lyanna, I have to believe, she either wed R and thus became part of the royal family or was pregnant with a Targ baby, probably Rhaegar's kid, but he did have a crazy father. And, if you believe the latter also bedded Joanna L, the baby of this union could be the half-sibling of Tyrion or Jaime/Cercei. And, maybe Aerys raped Ashara, who is now hanging around her son Aegon as a septa (Though, I think Aegon is Illyrio's son by a Blackfyre female, with a slim shot at him being Ashara's son by someone (not Aerys).). Targ bastards are popping up all over the place. Blackfyre Rebellion 2.0 :P

[Belandra Waters]

I don't think even Barristan Selmy would have let that happen.And don't give some any theories if you don't have any evidence for it.The kingsguard was made of honorable men and what about Arthur Dayne how can he tolerate his own sister getting raped by aerys?

Yes, the Kingsguard was made up of honorable men serving a mad king. This is the conflict of their storyline. Could Barristan Selmy have delivered Ashara Dayne to Aerys' quarters and not intervened if he knew the king was raping her? Yes, their Lord Commander would say that it is their duty to protect the King, not to judge him. Would Arthur Dayne have continued serving the King if he knew that had happened? I think their code of honor would demand that he did.

The theory proposed by MtnLion makes sense to me because it seemed that there was an event that either split the Kingsguard into two factions, or at least created tension within the ranks. I think those closest to Rhaegar have gone with him to the ToJ and are probably privy to his plan to call the Council to institute changes when he returns from the Trident.

The only one who really seemed to fulfil his knightly duty, which is when vows are in conflict with each other, a knight must choose the action which is for the greater good, sliced his King's throat rather than see thousands and thousands of KL citizens burned by wildfyre. He was also ordered to deliver his father's head to the King. For this he was referred to by his Brothers as a "false brother" and that Aerys would not have been killed had the three of them been in KL. The Kingsguard oath seems to be more concerned with protecting the .King and not allowing for any decision-making on their parts regardless of the atrocities they may bear witness to

According to Selmy, somebody dishonored Ashara Dayne at the tourney. I don't think it's outlandish to wonder if it might have been Mad King Aerys.

[sumant30]

Yes, the Kingsguard was made up of honorable men serving a mad king. This is the conflict of their storyline. Could Barristan Selmy have delivered Ashara Dayne to Aerys' quarters and not intervened if he knew the king was raping her? Yes, their Lord Commander would say that it is their duty to protect the King, not to judge him. Would Arthur Dayne have continued serving the King if he knew that had happened? I think their code of honor would demand that he did.

The theory proposed by MtnLion makes sense to me because it seemed that there was an event that either split the Kingsguard into two factions, or at least created tension within the ranks. I think those closest to Rhaegar have gone with him to the ToJ and are probably privy to his plan to call the Council to institute changes when he returns from the Trident.

The only one who really seemed to fulfil his knightly duty, which is when vows are in conflict with each other, a knight must choose the action which is for the greater good, sliced his King's throat rather than see thousands and thousands of KL citizens burned by wildfyre. He was also ordered to deliver his father's head to the King. For this he was referred to by his Brothers as a "false brother" and that Aerys would not have been killed had the three of them been in KL. The Kingsguard oath seems to be more concerned with protecting the .King and not allowing for any decision-making on their parts regardless of the atrocities they may bear witness to

According to Selmy, somebody dishonored Ashara Dayne at the tourney. I don't think it's outlandish to wonder if it might have been Mad King Aerys.

I don't think Arthur Dayne will allow Ashara to be raped by Aerys this seems to far fetched a theory to me, and if indeed Barristan did deliver Ashara to Aerys, then Jamie Lannister definitely has more honor than Barristan The Bold.

[sumant30]

The dying words of Lyanna could also be interpreted as promise me Ned you will not spare Rhaegar but will kill him, but it was Robert who finally did the deed so may be Ned Stark is also feeling guilty about not having himself taken Rhaegar's head.

[baxus]

It makes no sense for Wylla to be his mother. none. it doesn't advance plot, it doesn't add to the epic value.

and why would it need to advance the plot?

in my opinion, it would make perfect sense for jon's mother to be some commoner, or even camp follower.

if it turns out that he's the heir to the realm, it would be too much of a cliche.

How do you surmise Dark Sister is in Lyanna's grave? have i missed something?

i too would like a clarification on this.

The kingsguard was made of honorable men and what about Arthur Dayne how can he tolerate his own sister getting raped by aerys?

remember when jaime and one other of the kingsguard (can't remember who it was) standing guard in front of kings quarters while aerys was doing god know what to his queen?

sometimes their honour stops them from doing the honourable thing, no matter how senseless that may sound ;)

Also, it seems strange for one of the few living members of a major house to take the black instead of marrying and trying to mend some of the war wounds and replenish the Stark line.

he could have just been gay and decided that was his honourable way out (by northmen standards).

he wouldn't have to get married and noone would question why.

remember whoresbane and all the gossip about the whore being a man?

EDIT:

i'm a fan of "the most simple solution is often the right one" approach.

sometimes it doesn't turn out to be true, but more often it does.

[Maester Tormund]

I don't think Arthur Dayne will allow Ashara to be raped by Aerys this seems to far fetched a theory to me, and if indeed Barristan did deliver Ashara to Aerys, then Jamie Lannister definitely has more honor than Barristan The Bold.

Knights of the Kingsguard saw atrocities all the time and didn't stop them because of their vow. They watched Aerys the Mad King burn people alive. Jamie would protect Robert while he dishonored his own sister.

Jamie finally broke his vows and killed Aerys and is looked down on because of that, even though everyone knew Aerys was insane and needed to be killed the fact that a member of the Kingsguard did it was considered a travesty. The vows they take run deep, I don't think they'd stop Aerys from raping someone whether it be a high born lady or an innkeep's daughter.

[baxus]

I don't think they'd stop Aerys from raping someone whether it be a high born lady or an innkeep's daughter.

... or his wife, the queen they also swore to protect ;)

[Dragonfish]

The dying words of Lyanna could also be interpreted as promise me Ned you will not spare Rhaegar but will kill him, but it was Robert who finally did the deed so may be Ned Stark is also feeling guilty about not having himself taken Rhaegar's head.

Ned made his promise to Lyanna after Rhaegar was already dead.

[sumant30]

Jamie would protect Robert while he dishonored his own sister.

Robert was married to Cersi i don't think Jamie would ever stand if robert would have raped cersi when they were not married,and in that case also Arthur Dayne would stand for Aerys dishonoring his sister.

[MtnLion]

Robert was married to Cersi i don't think Jamie would ever stand if robert would have raped cersi when they were not married,and in that case also Arthur Dayne would stand for Aerys dishonoring his sister.

No one stood against Aerys while he burned Rickard and strangled Brandon, not even Arthur. Jaime says that everyone was present in the great hall during that event and not a one stirred.

[Meddler]

Robert was married to Cersi i don't think Jamie would ever stand if robert would have raped cersi when they were not married,and in that case also Arthur Dayne would stand for Aerys dishonoring his sister.

Is it made clear when Ashara was "dishonored"? The assumption seems to be that it was after the feast, but I don't think Barristan specifies this. If it was Aerys, it may well have been later. He did have a fetish for violence, often sexually abusing Rhaella after committing a violent act. If he did rape her, it probably wasn't after the feast, and if it was later in the tourney, after the KotL disappeared and Aerys sent Rhaegar after him/her, Arthur Dayne may not have been there either, he may have gone with Rhaegar.

[sumant30]

Arthur Dayne may not have been there either, he may have gone with Rhaegar.

Even if he was not there if the theory put forward is she was raped she would definitely would have told her brother, and her brother would have taken some action because even though he was in kings guard and saw all horrible sort of things happen to different people i still think he would not stand if his kith and kin was harmed and aerys although was mad must have known that Arthur was close to rhaegar, so if in a fit of rage if Arthur dayne would have killed Rhaegar for taking revenge for his sister it would have cost Aerys dearly he should have at least thought that although he was mad enough to burn the whole king's landing if he lost control of it.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

?? Can you be more specific? I don't recall this either and I'm pretty sure Dragonfish has read AGoT...several times.

Which is what? And where is this found? A kindle search doesn't find anything associated with Benjen and dishonor and/or embarrassment. It's not the first time I've seen this referenced on here so I'd appreciate it if you could direct me to the passage.

I don't have my copy of AGOT right now or I would :/ I just vaguley remember it being said. And I thought it was said about why benjen joined the watch. It was just a possibility I was throwing out there. I wonder what the embrassment was then.

[Meddler]

Even if he was not there if the theory put forward is she was raped she would definitely would have told her brother, and her brother would have taken some action because even though he was in kings guard and saw all horrible sort of things happen to different people i still think he would not stand if his kith and kin was harmed and aerys although was mad must have known that Arthur was close to rhaegar, so if in a fit of rage if Arthur dayne would have killed Rhaegar for taking revenge for his sister it would have cost Aerys dearly he should have at least thought that although he was mad enough to burn the whole king's landing if he lost control of it.

Maybe, we don't know a whole lot about him aside from the fact that virtually everyone thought highly of him. We can speculate on what his reaction would have been, but without any firsthand account of his personality and behavior, it's tough to judge. He might have been angry enough at Aerys, but also composed enough to remember his vows, and instead of taking violet action, simply started treating the Crown Prince as the true king, passively forsaking Aerys while still convincing himself that he was keeping his vows by protecting Rhaegar.

[Belandra Waters]

I don't have my copy of AGOT right now or I would :/ I just vaguley remember it being said. And I thought it was said about why benjen joined the watch. It was just a possibility I was throwing out there. I wonder what the embrassment was then.

Well, when you do have your copy, could you please post the reference on this thread bacause I can't find anything about any dishonor or embarrassing situation that involved Benjen, and would love to know where it says this. Thanks!

[Belandra Waters]

You say this:

I don't think even Barristan Selmy would have let that happen.And don't give some any theories if you don't have any evidence for it.

And then follow up with this:

The dying words of Lyanna could also be interpreted as promise me Ned you will not spare Rhaegar but will kill him, but it was Robert who finally did the deed so may be Ned Stark is also feeling guilty about not having himself taken Rhaegar's head.

Pure speculation on your part with no evidence. And Rhaegar was already dead.

I don't think Arthur Dayne will allow Ashara to be raped by Aerys this seems to far fetched a theory to me, and if indeed Barristan did deliver Ashara to Aerys, then Jamie Lannister definitely has more honor than Barristan The Bold.

Totally agree with you.

And here's the thing: I think all of us agree with you that it is inconceivable that Arthur Dayne and the other members of the Kingsguard could stand by and watch atrocitiies being performed on the innocents and do nothing, And if those atrocities were performed on members of your family, wouldn't any one of us intervene?

If Aerys did rape Ashara, it may have proven to be "the tipping point" for at least 3 members of the Kingsguard. Jaime Lannister certainly reached his during the sack of KL. Maybe Ashara didn't tell Arthur and maybe the Kingsguard don't gossip amongst themselves, so he didn't know.

These were men of honor who took knightly oaths to abide by a strict code of conduct. Further vows are made upon being raised to the Kingsguard. As we see in Jaime's storyline, these oaths can conflict with each other, without clear guidelines on what they are to do then.. I think we see that Jaime and Barristan are tormented souls because of this.

I think that GRRM is trying to show us that honor is not something that can be defined by a set of rules, the guiding principle in the end should be love for the greater purpose or good.

[Belandra Waters]

Is it made clear when Ashara was "dishonored"? The assumption seems to be that it was after the feast, but I don't think Barristan specifies this. If it was Aerys, it may well have been later. He did have a fetish for violence, often sexually abusing Rhaella after committing a violent act. If he did rape her, it probably wasn't after the feast, and if it was later in the tourney, after the KotL disappeared and Aerys sent Rhaegar after him/her, Arthur Dayne may not have been there either, he may have gone with Rhaegar.

No, it just says "at Harrenhal|". And what, I wonder, does "dishonored" mean exactly?