Revealing of Jon Snow's mother

[Maester Tormund]

No, it doesn't fit THE ONE AND ONLY definition of living lies. Look the term up in any idiom dictionary, and it'll support what I'm saying. "Living lies" is simply not the same thing as telling lies.

live a lie- to live a life that is dishonest because you are pretending to be something that you are not, either to yourself or to other people; to spend your life as someone else.

Well you can take that definition right there as you do, that the lie is that he is the father of Jon Snow. Or you can take it a different approach. That the lie is his outstanding moral code and moral fiber. If he follows such a strict moral code and always tries to do the right thing, then why did he father a bastard? On the outside he is always working for the better good and trying to make the world a better place. On the inside he's really an oath breaking husband.

Ok, fine. My only point was that it is not a trait that comes exclusively from Ned.

I agree with you that it is not a trait comes only from Ned, I'm just pointing out that theres a strong connection between the trait and the children of Ned.

Fine, whatever. Keep believing what you want to believe, and we'll see who's right in the end.

I said waaaay back when I first posted, and also other times I believe, that I'm only trying to play Devil's Advocate here. I would prefer the story more if Jon was the son of Ned but that doesn't mean I'm only accepting that as the answer. This was all mere debate and speculation, not some argument for you to get upset over and I apologize if that's how you took it all. We have a pretty long time until we get to find out the answer so me adding in my two cents to the debate shouldn't be a problem. This site seems to be filled with a lot of open minded and friendly people, not the typical "fan boys" that you find with other works that openly refuse and argue any outside opinion. I thought that my ideas held some merit to the discussion, but if they somehow offended you I apologize that you found them offensive. I do not however apologize for pointing them out.

[Matheus Nistal]

Well, I've got this crackpot theory that R+L=J&A

Meaning Lyanna had twins, and Ned kept the one with Stark look, and Ashara took the one with the Targ look.The way Bran and Rickon were split up for safety.

Maybe Varys thinks he has a fake Aegon but he actually has Rhaegar's other son. :)

This would be a huge Star Wars reference, I love it!

[ladybug196591]

If Ser Barristan can be believed, Ashara Dayne can't be Jon Snow's mother. She gave birth to a stillborn daughter which in effect made her to commit suicide. Part of me wants to believe that Lyanna is the real Mother of Jon Snow but i really do not like the idea of Jon being a targ. :-(

[Starkey]

Call me Mr. Obvious, but my guess is that Lyanna is Jon Snow's mother, and Prince Rhaegar is the father. Why else would there be Kingsguard guarding the Tower of Joy where Lyanna was "imprisoned"? I think ordinary household knights or men-at-arms would be good enough guards to just guard a prisoner. Kingsguard would be guarding the tower only if a Targaryen told them to guard a member of the royal family... such as Prince Rhaegar, to guard his offspring. He loved Lyanna and was only "fond" of Elia. I'm also guessing now that the scream Ned Stark heard coming from the tower was Lyanna in childbirth... and she may have died as a result of a birth gone wrong... "she was lying in a bed soaked with blood". Her last words to Ned were "Promise me, Ned". So the promise Ned made may have been to keep Jon safe, his true father's identity hidden, otherwise Robert would want Jon dead like Rhaegar's other children. So... Ned initially hid Jon with a wet nurse in Dorne then brought him to Winterfell as his "bastard", much to Catelyn's displeasure, and Jon's identity hidden. Now that Ned is dead, the only people who might know the truth are Howland Reed and Bran as has been mentioned previously. I'm guessing also that Jon (if he's still alive) might be the third head of the dragon, along with Aegon and Danaerys.

[Maester Tormund]

Call me Mr. Obvious, but my guess is that Lyanna is Jon Snow's mother, and Prince Rhaegar is the father. Why else would there be Kingsguard guarding the Tower of Joy where Lyanna was "imprisoned"? I think ordinary household knights or men-at-arms would be good enough guards to just guard a prisoner. Kingsguard would be guarding the tower only if a Targaryen told them to guard a member of the royal family... such as Prince Rhaegar, to guard his offspring. He loved Lyanna and was only "fond" of Elia. I'm also guessing now that the scream Ned Stark heard coming from the tower was Lyanna in childbirth... and she may have died as a result of a birth gone wrong... "she was lying in a bed soaked with blood". Her last words to Ned were "Promise me, Ned". So the promise Ned made may have been to keep Jon safe, his true father's identity hidden, otherwise Robert would want Jon dead like Rhaegar's other children. So... Ned initially hid Jon with a wet nurse in Dorne then brought him to Winterfell as his "bastard", much to Catelyn's displeasure, and Jon's identity hidden. Now that Ned is dead, the only people who might know the truth are Howland Reed and Bran as has been mentioned previously. I'm guessing also that Jon (if he's still alive) might be the third head of the dragon, along with Aegon and Danaerys.

I'm guessing you didn't read the whole thread...

[baxus]

truth be told, rare are those who read an entire 15 page thread before posting in it ;)

[Starkey]

I'm guessing you didn't read the whole thread...

I usually read the first few comments of a thread and then skip to the end to post. I try to skip over the silly comments in between...

[Jon Icefyre]

Wow I just wanna say I love the theories i'm hearing from you guys really interesting stuff that's open my eyes to a lot of possibilities I didn't think of before. I honestly would prefer if Jon's parents were Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne just because it would play really well with Jon's personality(he acts like Ned), and it would be really cool if Ashara is actually sept Lemore so that Jon could meet his mother. But I doubt it, there have been too many hints that suggest L+R=J. Plus Rhaegar has been mentioned way too many times in the series to not have any legitimate heirs still alive(assuming Aegon is a pretender). I mean seriously Rhaegar has to be the most hyped up crown prince of all time, and Jon snow is probably the mainest of main characters in the series odds are they're related, and personally I think if Ashara is indeed his mother(which I highly doubt) and she turns out to be Sept Lemore(once again skeptical) in the world of westeros that would be way more cliche to have Jon's mother still alive after all these years instead of having both his parents dead. The fact of the matter is Jon's parents are most likely Rhaegar and Lyanna sorry to the people who hate this theory but it's by far the most likely considering the evidence and hints in the books...

[Maester Tormund]

truth be told, rare are those who read an entire 15 page thread before posting in it ;)

Haha very very true

I usually read the first few comments of a thread and then skip to the end to post. I try to skip over the silly comments in between...

Understandable, it was just funny because you came in right after a rather heated debate over all of what you had said haha

Wow I just wanna say I love the theories i'm hearing from you guys really interesting stuff that's open my eyes to a lot of possibilities I didn't think of before. I honestly would prefer if Jon's parents were Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne just because it would play really well with Jon's personality(he acts like Ned), and it would be really cool if Ashara is actually sept Lemore so that Jon could meet his mother. But I doubt it, there have been too many hints that suggest L+R=J. Plus Rhaegar has been mentioned way too many times in the series to not have any legitimate heirs still alive(assuming Aegon is a pretender). I mean seriously Rhaegar has to be the most hyped up crown prince of all time, and Jon snow is probably the mainest of main characters in the series odds are they're related, and personally if Ashara is indeed his mother(which I highly doubt) and she turns out to be Sept Lemore(once again skeptical) in the world of westeros that would be way more cliche to have Jon's mother still alive after all these years instead of having both his parents dead. The fact of the matter is Jon's parents are most likely Rhaegar and Lyanna sorry to the people who hate this theory but it's by far the most likely considering the evidence and hints in the books...

I would prefer it as well, I liked the idea of the bastard being more Stark than the Starks. Kinda was like a statement on labels. Tyrions a dwarf but he's one of the biggest characters in the series. Jons not a Stark in name but he shows the traits more than any of the other Starks.

[sumant30]

I would prefer it as well, I liked the idea of the bastard being more Stark than the Starks. Kinda was like a statement on labels. Tyrions a dwarf but he's one of the biggest characters in the series. Jons not a Stark in name but he shows the traits more than any of the other Starks.

That is actually very true i still think Jon = Ned + Ashara = Ice+Fire, because as i read on this forum somewhere fire should not always be equated with targs but also dorne, and jon being R+L will be way too obvious for GRRM.

[Maester Tormund]

That is actually very true i still think Jon = Ned + Ashara = Ice+Fire, because as i read on this forum somewhere fire should not always be equated with targs but also dorne, and jon being R+L will be way too obvious for GRRM.

Another possibility, the presence of Ashara Dayne is something that just can't be discarded or thrown away. She has to be important in some way with how often she is brought up. Also the "Fire" could still be Dany and the "Ice" could be Jon Snow, Jon doesn't have to be a Targ to be some miraculous being

[Jon Icefyre]

Another possibility, the presence of Ashara Dayne is something that just can't be discarded or thrown away. She has to be important in some way with how often she is brought up. Also the "Fire" could still be Dany and the "Ice" could be Jon Snow, Jon doesn't have to be a Targ to be some miraculous being

How ironic would it be if N+A=J and some how Jon ends up with dany by the end of the series so there is a union of fire and Ice, and the stark/targ union that caused the great rebellion in the past is now the union that rules over the realm??? Haha but in all seriousness there's just too much mystery, hints, and metonining of the TOJ events to have R+L=J not be true...I just really can't see lyanna layin in a bed of blood meaning anything other than child birth. Rhaegar doesn't seem like the type of man to kidnap a woman I mean for a guy who supposedly kidnapped lyanna, Ned Stark seems to think pretty highly of him from what we've seen in the books when Ned thinks about Rhaeger...

[Jon Icefyre]

That is actually very true i still think Jon = Ned + Ashara = Ice+Fire, because as i read on this forum somewhere fire should not always be equated with targs but also dorne, and jon being R+L will be way too obvious for GRRM.

I think the Dorne fire theories I've seen on this forum is a bit of a misunderstanding. Dorne is associated with the sun because of the heat not fire itself, there's a huge difference

[Meddler]

How ironic would it be if N+A=J and some how Jon ends up with dany by the end of the series so there is a union of fire and Ice, and the stark/targ union that caused the great rebellion in the past is now the union that rules over the realm??? Haha but in all seriousness there's just too much mystery, hints, and metonining of the TOJ events to have R+L=J not be true...I just really can't see lyanna layin in a bed of blood meaning anything other than child birth. Rhaegar doesn't seem like the type of man to kidnap a woman I mean for a guy who supposedly kidnapped lyanna, Ned Stark seems to think pretty highly of him from what we've seen in the books when Ned thinks about Rhaeger...

Yeah, I think the real hardcore fans (like people posting in forums) are overthinking the whole thing by saying R+L=J is "too obvious". The vast majority of fans aren't nearly as nerdy as us about this stuff, and most of them probably haven't even figured it out. We're a a minority of the readership, even given how large a community like this is, and we're also incredibly overexposed to these analyses and even, dare I say it ::gasp::, groupthink. I think most of the "R+L=J is too obvious" camp is just lashing out against said groupthink (and of course, in doing so, creating a new mode of groupthink of their own).

Also, don't forget, the series was originally supposed to be a trilogy, and Martin likely thought he'd have been well finished with it a decade ago. If that was the case, I highly doubt anyone would have been butthurt if and when it turned out R+L=J in 2002.

It would be pretty annoying and even borderline insulting if all of these hints turned out to be a giant red herring, one that's lasted about 6,000 pages already. If it turns out R+L=/=J, Jon's background and Ned's promise and the events at the ToJ all had better pretty damn well satisfying in some other way.

[aryagonnakill]

^ Very true, when I asked the person who introduced me to this serious who he thought Jons parents were he said what do you mean parents don't you mean mother? A re-read makes it more obvious because when we get Neds flashbacks in GOT which are the real clues we don't yet have all the background info on the tourny at Harrenhall etc.

[sumant30]

Another possibility, the presence of Ashara Dayne is something that just can't be discarded or thrown away. She has to be important in some way with how often she is brought up. Also the "Fire" could still be Dany and the "Ice" could be Jon Snow, Jon doesn't have to be a Targ to be some miraculous being

Ashara Dayne is definitely an important figure in this series and we have been given only bits and parts of information about here, i still remember arya riding with BwB where she meets ned dayne squire of lord beric who tells her that ned stark only loved ashara, so something is definitely cooking there.

[sumant30]

It would be pretty annoying and even borderline insulting if all of these hints turned out to be a giant red herring, one that's lasted about 6,000 pages already. If it turns out R+L=/=J, Jon's background and Ned's promise and the events at the ToJ all had better pretty damn well satisfying in some other way.

Actually jon has a lot of ned stark features in him that the targ features, also i think it is definitely possible that blood on lyanna's clothes can mean something different rather than just child birth i hope we get answers to these questions in the last 2 books.

[Meddler]

Actually jon has a lot of ned stark features in him that the targ features, also i think it is definitely possible that blood on lyanna's clothes can mean something different rather than just child birth i hope we get answers to these questions in the last 2 books.

Why is it relevant that he has "Ned Stark" features as opposed to "Stark features"? He would still have Stark DNA. If Rhaegar wasn't his father, he should have just as much Wylla or [Ashara] Dayne features as he does Stark by this theory.

But again, if it turns out R+L doesn't =J, the actual answer had better be incredibly satisfying based upon the evidence presented, or it's just going to come off like a giant, obnoxious red herring. It's going to feel like the TV show Lost where there was all this build up and minimal actual payoff (and for the record, I expected from the beginning that Lost's ending would be unsatisfying, and I do not feel nearly that way about ASoIaF, Lost's threads always seemed so arbitrary, ASoIaF's seem quite specific and pointed towards a singular or group of singular ends).

[Meddler]

Actually jon has a lot of ned stark features in him that the targ features, also i think it is definitely possible that blood on lyanna's clothes can mean something different rather than just child birth i hope we get answers to these questions in the last 2 books.

Just to add to my point above, Rhaenys was said to have had much more Martell features than Targaryen features, so we already have precedent that Rhaegar was not passing surpassingly dominant traits (unlike Robert Baratheon, who's traits did seem to be highly dominant in his offspring, due to the resemblance he passed to a large amount of bastards but none of his false trueborn children)

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

But bloodraven says to bran its your blood that makes you a greenseer. The blood of the first men. The blood of the starks. I like the theory of lyanna and raeghar having a bastard being jon. Cause there was so much speculation on lyanna's death. Which sounded like childbirth. And the promise. Promise me ned. Promise me. Now we davos does have that bit of info where they say ned fathered jon on his way to the three sisters. And we have catelyns theory of ashara's love for ned. But the being how honorable ned acts I don't see him fathering a bastard. But lyanna was wild and in love. Not with a stag but with fire. With the blood of the dragon.