Drogo didn't rape Dany

[Buckwheat]

To be fair, I took this as meaning she longed for a time when life was less complicated and someone else was in charge. It's not a strange longing for someone who has to deal with a lot of difficult situations, has a lot of responsibility, suffers from self doubt (which Dany often does in ADWD) and feels very isolated and alone.

:agree: She may idealise him as a symbol of her life at that time, not for himself.

[Lyanna Stark]

Khal Drogo did not coerce her or arrange for her to be coerced, so he would not be guilty of rape in many legal systems - aside from the age issue obviously.

I don't think the main point of the troubling things described in ASOIAF is to look at it from a perspective of "is it legal" but to consider it in all its moral ambiguity. A lot of the ASOIAF cultures have traditions that would never fly today and that often involve things that would be completely unacceptable today.

The issue of arranged marriages is one of those and we see it reflected throughout, whether it is through one of the few examples of a happy arranged marriage (Ned and Cat) ot through the many unhappy or disastrous/abusive ones (Cersei and Robert, Jon Arryn and Lysa, Gregor Clegane and his two dead wives, Ramsay Bolton and Jeyne "Arya" Poole).

You also have the Wildling tradition of "wife stealing" where wildling women would be stolen which could be considered an atrocity, but on the other hand we have Ygritte proclaiming that wildling women would not respect a man who was not able to steal a woman for himself, so it's not as simple as a yes or no answer.

[Turkey Jack]

What age issue? Old enough to bleed old enough to breed seems to be the standard measure.

I remember a girl in school talking about her first love, one of her comments was I am now getting use to his weight on top of me - so sex is uncomfortable but I love and want to please him, with practice Im starting to enjoy it. Which is how I read Danys situation, all be it in an extreme situation - both language and cultural barriers getting in the way. She even confides in her handmaiden that she wants to please the Karl, once she learns a bit of the language she can communicate her needs and has the confidence to take control and they both are happier for it.

[Eejit]

I don't think the main point of the troubling things described in ASOIAF is to look at it from a perspective of "is it legal" but to consider it in all its moral ambiguity. A lot of the ASOIAF cultures have traditions that would never fly today and that often involve things that would be completely unacceptable today.

The issue of arranged marriages is one of those and we see it reflected throughout, whether it is through one of the few examples of a happy arranged marriage (Ned and Cat) ot through the many unhappy or disastrous/abusive ones (Cersei and Robert, Jon Arryn and Lysa, Gregor Clegane and his two dead wives, Ramsay Bolton and Jeyne "Arya" Poole).

Intent and foreknowledge is as important from a moral perspective as legal. On their wedding night Drogo gave Dany the opportunity to refuse, he cannot be held at fault if she said yes due to pressure from and fear of Viserys if he was ignorant of that factor.

[eyeheartsansa]

Well I would be shocked, shocked I tell you, if the Dothraki had a concept of marital rape considering that the traditional custom was said to be that the Khal should share his wife with his Bloodriders. We don't even know if they have a concept of rape, however we as readers certainly do, and we are the ones who GRRM intended to read and respond to the text.

I'm not one of your big city lawyers but all the same the suggestion of a universal consent that you imply with your first point seems to me to be very troubling. It's clear that the specifics of their first night are quite different from those of subsequent occasions of marital relations. Even putting aside the expectations loaded on to Dany by her brother (and sovereign), Illyrio and the situation itself which may well have made saying no impossible that one "yes" can not be taken by us as a universal yes, applicable to all other situations. Once we get to "Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion..." and "...the tear that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain" what word, what concept other than rape can we as readers use to describe that scene? Of course to Khal Drogo it isn't rape because that is an alien concept to him, she is like a horse to him, (and as such superior to other women) but in possesion of very limited rights. However Dany isn't Dothraki - so why only envoke the standards of the Dothraki?

No, Dany doesn't look back on the circumstances as rape. However to take that as meaning the ends justified the means as in she was raped until she got used to it, but once she was broken in properly that made everything ok is, in very neutral language, extremely troubling.

ASOIAF is, I think, meant to be troubling. That the Dothraki do things that they culturally are happy with (purdah for widows, enslavement of people, rape of women) is self-evident but neither here nor there for us as readers. We are not meant to look at them as moral exemplars. What we have is the story of a young girl who was sold and abused, whose live and attitudes have been transformed and determined by that experience. We are looking in on the situation from the outside and are in a freer position to judge and are meant to judge the situation. Do you as a reader take in what happened and think that it is good and the way that people should behave? I don't think that just because Drogo was ok with what happened and because women have no rights in his society that made things ok either.

answering your bolded question - I never said it was good or exemplary behavior.. just normal for a Dothraki and not rape. What else would I call it other than abuse or rape? Just rough marital sex, Dothraki style. I also think there was some cross cultural misunderstanding... maybe Drogo had no idea that he was hurting Dany, because she wasn't facing him.. or because Dothraki women are used to being taken that way and even expect it. When Dany leared the new position from her sex coach, he liked it.. maybe it had never occurred to him that you could face each other during sex and that it could be romantic and mutually enjoyable.

Perhaps dany looks back on this time fondly because it was the first time in her life she had any freedom from her brother and any power of her own. Certainly her rights were limited as you've said, but being a khalissi, even with the painful doggystyle sex, was a helluva lot better than what she had before. Remember, Vis would have subjected her to gang rape if he thought it was necessary. That could have been a real possibility, if Drogo wasn't the 'softy' that he was, by doth. standards.

[corbon]

Their first night is very much open to debate, we do not know what would have happened if she had refused and we know that she did not want to marry Drogo in the first place.

It is not up for debate really. The text is explicit, she gave consent.

And marriage is a contract, especially in these sorts of societies and with powerful people. Sex is a REQUIRED part of fulfilling that contract, because the purpose of the marriage is to provide heirs. The moment Dany accepts any of the priviledges of her position, she loses any choice in having sex or not, at least until she provides an heir.

What about sex is so important and special that it sets it outside and above any contract that implictly includes sex?

But what happened later, every night when she was crying, that was definitely rape. If she consented on the first night, that does not mean she consented to be treated like this till the end of her life.

Not it is not 'definitely' rape. There is no definite lack of consent. Read the text. She deliberately hides her tears from Drogo and is thankful he cannot see them. She is carrying out an unpleasant but required duty that is part of her contract. She doesn't like it, any more than a sewer-cleaner enjoys mucking out sewers, but that does not mean that she is not consenting.

However, what is eminently clear is that this sex is excruciatingly painful, humiliating, and incredibly unpleasant for Danerys. Drogo is rough screwing of her is so physically painful that she cries each and every time, and has to bite back screams of pain.

... and fuck her so roughly she cries hysterically and must repress (not always successfully) her cries of pain.

While I find myself pleasantly surprised by the reasoned and reasonable tone and agree with pretty much everything QC I said, it is worth noting that even here there are exaggerations that make Drogo seem more of a beast than is actually written.

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from begind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night...

She has tears and muffled cries of pain. That is all we know. Its not necessarily 'excruciating', not 'humiliating' and not necessarily 'each and every time'. Its also not necessarily just the fucking that is so hard it is painful. Her major problem is that she is ahorse from sun up to sundown and suffering badly from saddle sores and general muscle and joint pains associated with going from a rare rider to an all-day-every-day rider. And having little or no chance to rest or heal.

There is also no hysteria. And no 'biting back screams'.

Now things might very well be as bad as people make out. But that is not what we are told. Readers exaggerate, it seems almost all of them. Partly perhaps because of the very sucessful way GRRM has communicated her misery and mood of despair.

(Note here that Drogo's treatment of Dany makes the girl so miserable she actually considers suicide.)

Her suicide contemplations are because she is beaten down by a seemingly endless misery of pain. This is as much or more the riding problems than the sex, though probably the sex exacerbates her situation.

[Lummel]

normal for a Dothraki is a pretty low hurdle! All manner of things are excused by that standard, slavery, aggressive war, purdah...

Better than Viserys is also not much of a comparison.

All in all Dany's story is a case of jumping out of the furnace and into the fire.

[Buckwheat]

It is not up for debate really. The text is explicit, she gave consent.

And marriage is a contract, especially in these sorts of societies and with powerful people. Sex is a REQUIRED part of fulfilling that contract, because the purpose of the marriage is to provide heirs. The moment Dany accepts any of the priviledges of her position, she loses any choice in having sex or not, at least until she provides an heir.

What about sex is so important and special that it sets it outside and above any contract that implictly includes sex?

Not it is not 'definitely' rape. There is no definite lack of consent. Read the text. She deliberately hides her tears from Drogo and is thankful he cannot see them. She is carrying out an unpleasant but required duty that is part of her contract. She doesn't like it, any more than a sewer-cleaner enjoys mucking out sewers, but that does not mean that she is not consenting.

The problem is, she did not want to be a part of this contract in the first place. She told Viserys she did not want to be Drogo's wife, that means she did not accept the contract. She was pushed into it by Viserys, Illyrio and Drogo, with no chance to decide on her own. It may not have ccured to Drogo that she might not want to marry him, but this was the case.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

13 year olds can't give consent and it was child rape. The only other time when something even close to consent was uttered was during their wedding night, the days after that was when she clearly was in distress and pain. Just because she learns to enjoy it doesn't stop it from being rape, she was pregnant at the age of 14 by someone who was twice her age!

EDIT: Read the comments and what the fuck guys, it is rape, she is a minor, just because the Dothraki tolerate (and even endorse) rape doesn't make it not rape.

[cuendillar]

It seems to me that some here are clearly mixing up "legal", "morally acceptable" and "socially acceptable". There should be no doubt that their sex life at no point was either illegal or socially unacceptable. It was very much a standard marietal relationship among the Dothraki. The wedding night was likely the only extraordinary one, where Drogo was much kinder than could have been expected.

The only point worth arguing is if it was morally acceptable. That's a much harder point to address as it depends on whether we use modern standards or not.

My personal opinion is that the wedding night cannot be considered morally apprehensive in any way, I read it as she actually did desire him at the end and he clearly asked permission first. I don't consider seduction to be tantamount to rape or sexual abuse. Speculating in what would have happened if she hadn't consented/been seduced is futile at best.

Thereafter, however, she clearly was abused sexually - which must be considered morally wrong. She should have had a right to decide over her own body, that violation was painful to read. Still, I wouldn't use the word "rape" as that's primarily associated with legal concerns. Nothing illegal happened, under local law.

If it was considered rape due to her having no choice in the matter as she was forced into a marriage, her rapist would logically be Viserys - as he was the one arranging the pairing. At least in Dany's eyes.

The issue of where to place the guilt isn't clear-cut either. Was it Viserys/Illyrio who arranged the marriage, Drogo who stuck it in her, the Dothraki culture for pressuring him to do so or the global culture that a woman's foremost duty is produce a heir?

Much the same situation is the assassination attempt on Bran: Was it the assassin, Joffrey who order the deed, Robert who mentioned in passing that death would be a mercy or Jaime/Cersei whose affair caused him to fall in the first place?

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Cercei considers Robert to have raped her. What she describes sounds much more like rape, even by westerosi standards, than Dany's case.

Not really, considering Cersei is at the legal age of someone who is able to give consent in the first place. Double Standard time: You said that Dany gave consent by hiding her fears and doing her duty as Drogo's wife, but you said here that Cersei was raped because she didn't enjoy it. Both cases are a form of rape, but it's amusing that you'll use one standard as an alibi and ignore it in another case.

[ARYa_Nym]

TBH I dislike how Drogo is given points for her asking her on the wedding night. He doesn't stop asking her until she says yes. It was going to happen anyway.

I've argued this before and many may not agree but to me the wedding night doesn't make sense.

She was a 13 year old little girl. He was a stranger. He looked like a threatening male to her. He wasn't speaking her language. The only word he said was no. I don't believe that a girl in her position would all of a sudden be like oooh yes fuck me. The t.v. show was more realistic to me.

I'm of the opinion that even if a girl or woman doesn't feel that she has been victimized it doesn't mean that she has not been.

In Dany's case what does she have to compare Drogo to? She has known no other man before him in an intimate manner so she doesn't know the difference between a man treating her well and a man treating her badly.

I think on the wedding night it is noted that she was wet but that isn't mentioned on the nights where she was crying. Unless Drogo is a fool I don't see why he wouldn't have known he wasn't doing something right.

I don't think it mattered to him if she wanted it though. He never checked on her to see if she liked it. In fact he rolled over and went to sleep after it was done without saying a word to her.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

cuendillar, things are illegal because they are morally and socially inexcusable. Raping a child is all of the above, and just because the Dothraki don't have a problem with it doesn't pardon it. Minors can't give consent, and it's pointless to try to view it in the Dothraki standard since they have no issue with it whatsoever.

[Winter's Knight]

Let me see if I understand this correctly: Drogo was not raping Dany if we measure his actions by Dothraki standards. The same standards that demand half a dozen deaths per wedding. And that khals may share their wives with their bloodriders.

[Jayce]

@TheSwaggeringBravo

Legal age is a relatively new concept. Go back a bit in history and you'll find some massive differences around the world.

In the world today legal age of consent ranges from 12 to 'Not unless married'. I will state that I agree with your feelings, but in this case/world/medievil based fantasy environment their legal age and ours does not match or even run the same line.

[Eejit]

13 year olds can't give consent and it was child rape. The only other time when something even close to consent was uttered was during their wedding night, the days after that was when she clearly was in distress and pain. Just because she learns to enjoy it doesn't stop it from being rape, she was pregnant at the age of 14 by someone who was twice her age!

EDIT: Read the comments and what the fuck guys, it is rape, she is a minor, just because the Dothraki tolerate (and even endorse) rape doesn't make it not rape.

I take it you're neither from Spain nor Japan. Probably not Spain or Germany either where age of consent is 14, or you wouldn't be quite so strident.

Personally I think 13-14 is too young but there's clearly no global standard, let alone one for 'first-world' countries in the 21st century.

[Jayce]

Let me see if I understand this correctly: Drogo was not raping Dany if we measure his actions by Dothraki standards. The same standards that demand half a dozen deaths per wedding. And that khals may share their wives with their bloodriders.

Drogo was not raping Dany on their wedding night (an important distinction for me) if we measure his actions against Westerosi standards either. The reason their wedding night is an important distinction is because re-reading the nights thereafter does read disturbingly like rape.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

13 year olds can't give consent and it was child rape. The only other time when something even close to consent was uttered was during their wedding night, the days after that was when she clearly was in distress and pain. Just because she learns to enjoy it doesn't stop it from being rape, she was pregnant at the age of 14 by someone who was twice her age!

EDIT: Read the comments and what the fuck guys, it is rape, she is a minor, just because the Dothraki tolerate (and even endorse) rape doesn't make it not rape.

The problem is, you're comparing it to modern standards. A thirteen year old girl is as perfectly capable of consenting to sex as a thirty year old woman. It is referred to as statutory rape, because in modern day, we have an age of consent, due to the thinking that girls under that age may be coerced into it by males over the age of consent. In a time where there is no age of consent, there can't be statutory rape. There are countless numbers of pregnancies for girls aged 13-15 in Europe, are you telling me that every single one of those cases is rape? Of course not.

The fact is, Dany consented on her wedding night. That is undeniable. There was foreplay, she was aroused, and seemed to enjoy it. Say what you want about it being rape because she was forced into the marriage, at that point in time, she was interested in having sex with Drogo, therefore the whole marriage issue wasn't an issue for her.

As for the other nights, it's much more up in the air. She doesn't strictly say no. As has been said, she was already physically exhausted from the constant riding, and bearing in mind that she has the body of a thirteen year old girl and is having sex with a very large full grown man, it isn't going to be comfortable. The main difference for me in these scenes is that Drogo isn't thinking of her enjoyment, like he did the first night. No foreplay, no asking for permission, just taking what he considers to be his rights through marriage. That's not to say that it isn't rape, but the fact that Dany doesn't refuse, suggests that she is willing to have sex with him, she just doesn't enjoy it; that possibility needs to be considered as well before anyone is labelled a rapist.

You can say again about how Dany is raped because she fears what will happen if she doesn't have sex with Drogo, but that is just opinion. Nowhere in the text does she express fears about that, it never crosses her mind. That is just certain readers expressing their views on the situation as Dany's thought process, and labeling Drogo a rapist by doing so is unfair to him as a character.

[Lummel]

...In the world today legal age of consent ranges from 12 to 'Not unless married'. I will state that I agree with your feelings, but in this case/world/medievil based fantasy environment their legal age and ours does not match or even run the same line.

But then which in-book standard should we apply? The Dothraki, Pentoshi or Westerosi one? And should we think about best practise, worst practise or somekind of average?

There isn't in ASOIAF a legal age or a moral standard, there are bunches of them, of course most of them are pretty harsh compared to 21st century UN approved guidelines or the views predominant amongst highly educated people.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I take it you're neither from Spain nor Japan. Probably not Spain or Germany either where age of consent is 14, or you wouldn't be quite so strident.

And that's messed up that a man of any older age can have sex with an 8th grade girl.