Drogo didn't rape Dany

[mor2]

yes, after she showed him another way.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh I don't know, the Dothraki surely are pretty rough and brutal, but Drogo was caring on their first night, and later he and Dany became definitely close.

But you assume some sort of universal consent, which is an extremely problematic view. Lummel brought this up in one of his earlier posts in this thread.

I think it's pointless to compare RL laws and Westeros culture towards the age of consent. Everyone seems to be much too young for basically anything that happens in the book (ex: Robb leading a war at 14, or Tyrion marrying Tysha when they're both 13 -and Tywin's problem is that she's poor, not their age).

What we are discussing has to do more with the moral implications and less with "is it legal?"

I think that Dany and Drogo's first night definitely wasn't rape: she explicitly gave consent, so that's ok.

As to the following nights... well, while I was reading that part i simply assumed that she was in pain because of the wounds she had from the saddle, and the Dothraki doggy-style position didn't help (In fact, as soon as her skins thickens, she stops finding sex painful too).

She hides her tears from him, and apparently he's not aware of her discomfort.

I thought that she should have said something, and that he was really hopeless in bed, but it looks more like a problem of culture/communication than an actual rape.

Dany is depressed enough about it to consider suicide which should tell you something about the level of distress. I'm not sure where you get from it that he was not aware of her discomfort. I'm fairly certain if she was willing the first time he'd notice a difference, but he clearly did not care until Dany took matters in her own hands.

[eyeheartsansa]

I'm not sure where you get from it that he was not aware of her discomfort.

Because there is no eye contact with doggystyle. He enters the tent, takes her, and falls asleep. He does seem a bit clueless, but I don't think he's being intentionally malicious or cruel. It's likely that Dothraki women like it rougher, and to Drogo this is just how things are done.

Sex/communication, even in marriage, is difficult even with a common language. It takes time to learn how to be really honest and open about stuff. Even in a modern marriage, a husband could be causing his wife discomfort and never know because she never complains, for whatever reason. She doesn't want to anger him or hurt his feelings or ruin his good time. It's weird and complicated and personal. This could go on for years, and it doesn't help that men are bit dumber than women about these things.

[butterbumps!]

Playing devil's advocate here as I'm not sure I believe this but;

We don't know that she wasn't willing because although she cried, was in pain, etc she at no point said no, nor did she remember it as a bad experience. Our own opinions aside, Dany, the person who it happened to, did not struggle against it and more importantly does not think of it as a bad experience (as far as we know).

I know you posted this as a "devil's advocate," but I think this is really reasonable.

Disclaimer: I really, really hope this doesn't come across as offensive, as it's being said with complete sincerity. Rape is a truly terrible thing that I don't support even culturally relativistically, but to call the Dany-Drogo thing rape (as it's written), is I think tossing the term a little more loosely than I'm comfortable with. Rape isn't just about a power imbalance between parties or just cajoling someone into sex-- it incorporates feelings of self-loathing, being used, feeling dirty, violation during and after the act, none of which Dany ever expresses. I don't think sex between a 13 year old and a significantly older party is morally justified-- for previously stated reasons of possible imbalanced power dynamics-- but in this particular case, I think the term "rape" is a bit too loaded to say that's what it is. If the sex was going to happen anyway, and this is what makes it rape, Drogo could have done so in a way that would have made her feel dirty and ashamed, an object-- which did not happen.

[Natalie_S]

What we are discussing has to do more with the moral implications and less with "is it legal?"

I meant that in our culture a 13th years old is a child, but that's not necessarily true in Westeros.

People grow up much faster than in RL... or maybe it's a similar situation to what it used to be in ancient times.

In Ancient Rome, for example, women were in age of marriage at 12. On the other hand, people died much earlier.

And in Romeo and Juliet it's stated that Juliet is not yet 14.

Dany is depressed enough about it to consider suicide which should tell you something about the level of distress. I'm not sure where you get from it that he was not aware of her discomfort. I'm fairly certain if she was willing the first time he'd notice a difference, but he clearly did not care until Dany took matters in her own hands.

the question is not, "is drogo a sensitive husband and a wonderful lover": the answerwould obviously be NO.

But that doesn't make him a rapist.

Disclaimer: I really, really hope this doesn't come across as offensive, as it's being said with complete sincerity. Rape is a truly terrible thing that I don't support even culturally relativistically, but to call the Dany-Drogo thing rape (as it's written), is I think tossing the term a little more loosely than I'm comfortable with. Rape isn't just about a power imbalance between parties or just cajoling someone into sex-- it incorporates feelings of self-loathing, being used, feeling dirty, violation during and after the act, none of which Dany ever expresses. I don't think sex between a 13 year old and a significantly older party is morally justified-- for previously stated reasons of possible imbalanced power dynamics-- but in this particular case, I think the term "rape" is a bit too loaded to say that's what it is. If the sex was going to happen anyway, and this is what makes it rape, Drogo could have done so in a way that would have made her feel dirty and ashamed, an object-- which did not happen.

I agree.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

You are quoting Jcooper out of context, which is unfair and distorted.

I apologize, what did he mean by saying that a 13 year old girl is as capable of consent as a 30 year old woman?

[Lummel]

...Drogo could have done so in a way that would have made her feel dirty and ashamed, an object-- which did not happen.

So why does she think "She would rather kill herself rather than go on". Was it the cooking do you think? ;)

Wanting to kill yourself is a pretty extreme reaction to a situation and does imply that you find it less than satisfactory and more than just unpleasant.

[Natalie_S]

When I was reading it I thought she wanted to die because she was tired by the long rides, the heat, the dirt, the wounds from the saddle... etc, and then there was the fact that she couldn't get a decent night of sleep because Drogo wanted to bang her.

I think she was depressed because she was exhausted by the whole situation, and not that she wanted to die because of the unsatisfactory relationship with her husband.

[eyeheartsansa]

yeah... sex was just one aspect of the big picture. The whole lifestyle was a difficult adjustment for her.

[mor2]

I think that life style is the correct way to describe it, the moment we accept that her brother had the right to "sell" her to Drogo, there is not much we can argue about what happened, he didnt sold her to have a happy marriage, he sold her (forgive me for the bluntness) to please the Khal cock. From that point of view she got lucky with what she had with Drogo in the end.

So why does she think "She would rather kill herself rather than go on". Was it the cooking do you think? ;)

I am sure that "ser Piggy" wanted to kill himself few times over, after his father decided that he was soft, weak and craven giving him a choice to either take the black or an accident in the woods will follow... and his adjustment in Castle black wasnt a picnic either, I am sure he got many "off scene" treats and fell asleep crying.

[butterbumps!]

So why does she think "She would rather kill herself rather than go on". Was it the cooking do you think? ;)

Wanting to kill yourself is a pretty extreme reaction to a situation and does imply that you find it less than satisfactory and more than just unpleasant.

Dany expressly does not want to kill herself in relation to Drogo's sexual nightly visits, and especially not because of the wedding night. I am looking at the passage to which the suicide refers, and it contemplated because the Dothraki way is hard-- riding all day on a horse with full elemental exposure would exhaust anyone. The suicide is not in relation to Drogo taking her, although she expresses relief on nights he doesn't pay her a visit, but rather the entirety of this physical way of life that she is not accustomed to.

I just want to express that I understand the sensitivity that many of you are expressing regarding this issue, but to understand that it swings both ways. The moral outrage that many have expressed, both by the scene in question, and by many reader's reactions is one side of this. For others, at least speaking for myself, hyperbolizing rape into being every sexual act that occurs either because the woman is perceived or assumed not to want to or due to a simple power imbalance is also offensive to some. I'm trying to posit the possibility that declaring rape in this circumstance might be seen as denigrating the gravity of rape to other readers, and that far from thinking that Dany-Drogo sex is universally ok, that some of us might just take issue with the term "rape" being used in a circumstance in which the woman did not believe it to be a violation.

[WhiteWalder]

They were married for Rhollor's sake. I'm sure many if not most 13 yr olds cried when consumating the marriage. It was probably common knowledge that it would be painful and not the best of times for a young bride. Differnent time, place, and standards. No rape.

[Inara]

Didn't Roslin cry during her wedding night with Edmure? Obviously he didn't stop - he told Jaime that he thought it was because Roslin was afraid of the bedding - but it was obviously consummated because Roslin is now pregnant.

Also, I keep thinking of Daven Lannister, who said he'd "wed and bed his stoat" (the Frey girl Tywin arranged for him) because he was afraid of ending up like Robb Stark. It's not exactly comparable to Daenarys, since Daven is much older, but Daven is also being forced into a wedding out of fear. We see how unhappy everyone is because Lancel refuses to consummate his marriage to Amerei, and eventually Tywin would have forced Tyrion to consummate his marriage to Sansa (if things had done according to the Lannister game plan, of course).

[eyeheartsansa]

Dany expressly does not want to kill herself in relation to Drogo's sexual nightly visits, and especially not because of the wedding night. I am looking at the passage to which the suicide refers, and it contemplated because the Dothraki way is hard-- riding all day on a horse with full elemental exposure would exhaust anyone. The suicide is not in relation to Drogo taking her, although she expresses relief on nights he doesn't pay her a visit, but rather the entirety of this physical way of life that she is not accustomed to.

I just want to express that I understand the sensitivity that many of you are expressing regarding this issue, but to understand that it swings both ways. The moral outrage that many have expressed, both by the scene in question, and by many reader's reactions is one side of this. For others, at least speaking for myself, hyperbolizing rape into being every sexual act that occurs either because the woman is perceived or assumed not to want to or due to a simple power imbalance is also offensive to some. I'm trying to posit the possibility that declaring rape in this circumstance might be seen as denigrating the gravity of rape to other readers, and that far from thinking that Dany-Drogo sex is universally ok, that some of us might just take issue with the term "rape" being used in a circumstance in which the woman did not believe it to be a violation.

you've said lots of what I've wanted to say but didn't have the words.

I agree completely that the word 'rape' gets thrown around an awful lot here by some well intentioned people.

[Lummel]

...I just want to express that I understand the sensitivity that many of you are expressing regarding this issue, but to understand that it swings both ways. The moral outrage that many have expressed, both by the scene in question, and by many reader's reactions is one side of this. For others, at least speaking for myself, hyperbolizing rape into being every sexual act that occurs either because the woman is perceived or assumed not to want to or due to a simple power imbalance is also offensive to some. I'm trying to posit the possibility that declaring rape in this circumstance might be seen as denigrating the gravity of rape to other readers, and that far from thinking that Dany-Drogo sex is universally ok, that some of us might just take issue with the term "rape" being used in a circumstance in which the woman did not believe it to be a violation.

I like your expression of understanding but feel that there is a slippery slope on both sides. I can see the hyperbolization point, but on the other hand that sounds like 'well it wasn't rape-rape', simply because we can imagine (and no doubt there are) worse rapes. The severity of that is not diminished, in my opinion, by allowing something less violent or within the context of marriage to be called a rape. Considering their marital relations between the wedding night and the dragon dream..how bad does the behaviour have to be before you call it rape (I meant that as a rhetorical question, this is a grisly enough topic as it is)?

[butterbumps!]

Well, not exactly. Rape has as much to do with, if not more, feelings of violation, being objectified, and feelings of worthlessness as it does with forceful sex. I'm not making an argument based on the fact that there are degrees of rape, and that some are worse than others. My argument is based on the fact that when a rape occurs the victim has these feelings of worthlessness and violation, which, in this instance, Dany does not. Even when she wishes he didn't pay her sex visits at night, it has far more to do with a more generalized pain than a feeling of sexual violation.

If the argument against this is that Dany-Drogo relations are written unrealistically, then that's a different argument, and based on our projecting how we might personally feel in Dany's case. This is not invalid, by any means, but it does not make the rape a fait accompli either. If the fact that she has nothing but positive thoughts when remembering Drogo, (beginning as soon as her rump gets used to riding in a saddle all day mind you), means that she has Stockholm Syndrome, then I give Martin more credit than that. Dany is nothing if not a fighter. If there was any slight, real or imagined to her person due to her relations with Drogo, we'd have heard about it, beyond question. Viserys was terrible to her, and we see her POV a running commentary of what a jackass she thinks he is, thinking of the abuse he gave her, feeling numb in her feelings toward him-- which we do not see in any POV in which she remembers Drogo.

[Fragile Bird]

I apologize, what did he mean by saying that a 13 year old girl is as capable of consent as a 30 year old woman?

Try reading the rest of the post.

[Sofia Aillard]

I don't like the idea of imposing our beliefs and what we think is right in other cultures... More so in reference to a different time and even more so in a fantasy world! To a city born and raised girl nowadays, can be awful to even think to hunt down "bambi", flay, cook, and eat it (like the saying "imagine the first occidental to eat raw fish")! BUT even our culture as "sophisticated" as it is, gave us "Alive!"

So yeah, by our standards Drogo raped Dany. Sexual harassment laws are based on the assumption that someone in a position of power cannot exercise said power to coarse anyone into a sexual relationship. Drogo indeed was gentlemanly enough to ask Danny, but would she say no? Could she? So he was in a power position and she was coarsed and coarsed sex = rape.

And still by our standards is really (really!) hard to accept that she would fall IN LOVE with him after reading about the "day followed by day and night followed by night" ordeal! (note I wrote LOVE, not Stockholm syndrome's emotional connection).

But it is NOT our day and age. It is NOT our culture. It is NOT our standard that count (it's not even our real world, haha). It's a culture that allows arranged marriages, that allows kids of 13 to get married, mixed with another culture that allows rape as a form of empowerment... So by their standards I really think Drogo was a dear and Dany could have fallen in love with him... I cannot pretend to understand how a heart of someone as "broken" as she might be (due to her brother, her upbringing, her surrounding, her being an orphan, her expected role in the whole Targ thing and etc) works.

[Lummel]

Well, not exactly. Rape has as much to do with, if not more, feelings of violation, being objectified, and feelings of worthlessness as it does with forceful sex. I'm not making an argument based on the fact that there are degrees of rape, and that some are worse than others. My argument is based on the fact that when a rape occurs the victim has these feelings of worthlessness and violation, which, in this instance, Dany does not. Even when she wishes he didn't pay her sex visits at night, it has far more to do with a more generalized pain than a feeling of sexual violation.

If the argument against this is that Dany-Drogo relations are written unrealistically, then that's a different argument, and based on our projecting how we might personally feel in Dany's case. This is not invalid, by any means, but it does not make the rape a fait accompli either. If the fact that she has nothing but positive thoughts when remembering Drogo, (beginning as soon as her rump gets used to riding in a saddle all day mind you), means that she has Stockholm Syndrome, then I give Martin more credit than that. Dany is nothing if not a fighter. If there was any slight, real or imagined to her person due to her relations with Drogo, we'd have heard about it, beyond question. Viserys was terrible to her, and we see her POV a running commentary of what a jackass she thinks he is, thinking of the abuse he gave her, feeling numb in her feelings toward him-- which we do not see in any POV in which she remembers Drogo.

It seems to me that she is treated as an object, even if she doesn't use that term herself and she does want to die, although I accept that the proportion of marital relations as to riding as to other alien elements of Dothraki life entering into that decision is debatable and varies from reader to reader.

I see your point about how she thinks about Drogo, but then that is paralleled I think in how she sees Viserys. It's not until quite late that she sees him for the miserable, vaunting character that he is despite all his foolishness and self delusion. While Dany is a fighter, she is also not necessarily always a good analyst. She does find strength out there on the Dothraki Sea but that above all reminds me of "Catseye" where the heroine finds a knot of hardness inside herself also brought on by horrible suffering.

For me it is uncomfortable, but a good part of all these threads is as much about ourselves as the book, quite how the Drogo relationship will look in the context of the completed series remains to be seen, but at present the Stockholm Syndrome approach works best for me as a way of understanding what is going on in her head.

Our mileage clearly varies!

[Neirben]

Tyrion is still uncomfortable with bedding someone so young, but it is expected of him.

Not exactly. The reason why he never bedded Sansa wasn't her age. It was that he knew he disgusted her both physically, as a dwarf, and morally, as a Lannister.