Drogo didn't rape Dany

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Snip.

Did Dany withhold her consent? We have no evidence that she did. She may not have liked how the sex felt but she went along with it willingly. That = consent.

Did Dany ever tell Drogo that she didn't want to have sex? There's no evidence of that. Since she has sex with him willingly later on, in a different way, that's circumstantial evidence that she had no problem with having sex with Drogo. She just dreaded the pain. Once the pain was eliminated she craved sex from him.

If we're examining this under modern law (and I don't know why we are to be honest) there's insufficient evidence to call this rape.

[Fearsome Fred]

Did Dany withhold her consent?

I have expressed no opinion on the subject and intend to continue not doing so.

But yes, that's what the discussion should be focussed on.

[RhaenysBee]

Hmm... I think it would be hard to prove that just because she eventually grew accustomed to the practice and gradually enjoyed it does NOT mean that the first time wasn't nonconsentual. She would have LOVED to have said "no," but like oh-so-many college-age girls, the reality is that "no" isn't going to be an acceptable answer. She knew this and reluctantly gave-in. By modern standards, that's rape.

By modern standards, I have to draw your attention to the possibility that Drogo had a troubled childhood and is misunderstood and socially outcast because of his different culture, that is, by modern standards, racism.

So I'm begging you, let's drop modern standards, because we are not in a modern world here.

Drogo married Daenerys. He does not only have a right to consummate that marriage, he is expected to do so by all cultures of Essos, Westeros, Medieval (and modern) Europe. Daenerys as a wife has no right to refuse that, that's her duty, to have sex with her husband and give him children (again beyond debate throughout Essos and Westeros and Medieval Europe). Drogo is a horselord from crude and brutal physical strength driven culture with its similarly crude customs concerning sex (doggy style). Drogo was gentle and kind to Daenerys on their first night which is given his culture and position in that culture more than we can expect from him. Daenerys actually enjoyed their first time (Drogo made her wet, she liked his touch). Daenerys didn't say no. Daenerys could not have said no, because as you very well observed no would have been an utterly unacceptable answer, given that she is the wife of a horselord in a medieval like world. That was her duty.

Later Drogo ceased being gentle to her, because Daenerys was no longer virgin, so he didn't think there was a need to be gentle. Daenerys didn't tell him to be gentle, she didn't dare, she'd know the language. That's a pity, but not Drogo's fault. And then Daenerys decided to pull herself together from the shocks of the new life (riding all day, not speaking the language, saddle sores, foul food, hard time in bed) and changed her attitude (something Viserys could never do and never wanted to do, that's why we respect Daenerys, remember? So this is not a form of Stockholm Syndrome) and started doing something to change her situation. She got used to riding, she learned to enjoy the food, she learned Dothraki, she started learning about the culture, she asked Doreah how she could "make the khal happy" = make their times enjoyable. And so she realized Dothraki world wasn't so bad as she thought and she fell in love with Drogo. That IS a love story.

[ishmael]

Depending on what he meant, he may be right. Sure, to meet the legal definition of rape, it must be shown that the perp acted without consent, and knew it. But aside from that, it does not particularly matter whether she, or he, understand it to be rape or "call it rape".

It does not matter, for instance, if both perp and victim mistakenly believe that it cannot be rape if the victim enjoys it.

You are way too hung up on legalities and legal language. My point was that you cannot look at a situation from the outside and know exactly what is going on in the situation. You have to talk to the involved parties to determine what is actually going on. You will be wrong more than you are right when you try to judge a situation from the outside without asking a few questions and gathering some information. It is called jumping to conclusions, they are usually wrong.

Maybe the vicitm enjoyed it because she did consent and neither the third party or prosecutor bothered to ask because they have the same all knowing attitude as you.

That may be your personal opinion. I am merely telling you that your personal opinion is not legally relevant. What matters is whether the prosecutor can prove that the victim did not consent, and the perp knew this.

I presented a situation where two people are having sex. My personal opinion that you cannot jump to the conclusion that somebody was raped because the sex is rougher than you like and are comfortable with is correct. But, it is the opinion of the people involved that counts. If you don't ask them about the situation then you will never know whether it was consentual or not. Neither party may feel they were raped because the wanted to have the sex that was observed. It is not the legal systems job to label uncomfortable situations for some as crimes.

How violent the sex looks "from the outside" would be considered relevant and admissible evidence. It is relevant to the question of whether the victim consented and/or whether the perp must have known she was not consenting.

A properly authenticated videotape, showing the victim's violent struggles, would be admissible. The entire troop of boyscouts who caught them in the act, while the woman was struggling violently, would each be allowed to take the stand and testify to what they saw.

You may argue it is irrelevant. The judge will certainly disagree.

Whether the victim "feels violated" is not particularly relevant to anything. A judge might not even allow the question.

The only thing that really matters is if the "victim" consented. If she did then the nature of the sex does not matter, how many video tapes you have or how many observers you have does not matter.

None of that makes the sex any less consentual. If it occurs in a public place there is a whole other set of legal issues to address, but if she consented, rape is not one of them.

You are confusing the issue of whether a rape took place with whether the rapist can get away with his crime. It is true that, in most cases, if the victim does not want to prosecute, or perhaps does not even want to "call it rape", the perp will get away with it.

No, you are the one confusing these two situations. Just because you see what you think is rape does not make it rape. Just because a prosecutor believes your story of what you think you saw does not make what happened between two other adults rape. The prosecuter can not make an accurate determination if he does not talk to at least the supposed victim, but to be fair, both parties be contacted about situation.

I just think it is crazy to say that person A who observes persons M and F having rough, intense sex knows better than person F if she was raped or not based solely on what person A thinks he sees. It becomes worse when you say that prosecutor X knows better that M and F what was going on between them when he did not witness anything and has not discussed the situation with them at all. he has only talked with person A and suddenly prosecuter X knows all there is to know about the dynamics of M and F's relationship.

[RhaenysBee]

The view of the victim is not relevant.The view of the victim is not relevant.

And do you know what? This post troubles me.

If that hypothetical situation did arise, it would still be rape, and Drogo would still have to pay for his actions. I really hope you weren't trying to make a serious point here, because it's verging on being absolutely ridiculous -- and slightly sickening.

A lot of rape victims don't even realise they have been raped.

No it wouldn't. Because as written in the hypothetical situation the wife was like, Okay, I don't feel like it, so let's get over with is quickly. She wasn't like Oh, no, stop that, you bastard, I hate you, I don't want it.

And so then we can assume all of us are permanently raped and don't even realize it? Poor us, I daresay. And then who decides whether it's rape or not? You?

She just idolizes him as the Stallion who Rapes the World.

Whoa. Drogo threw all Dothraki belief into the mud and was ready to cross the great salt water to retake the Iron Throne for Daenerys. He killed Viserys who threatened to hurt her and their child. They killed the one who almost poisoned Daenerys. He consented saving those lamb women Daenerys wanted to protect. He consented being treated by Mirri Maz Duur because Daenerys asked him. Oh my god, what a bastard, treats her like a queen does her every wish.

The view of the victim is not relevant. The fact that the victim does not want the perp prosecuted is not relevant. The prosecutor can, if necessary, subpoena the victim to testify against her will.

So one can be forced to testify something she doesn't believe? And that is legal? The view of the victim is not relevant. So if one has sex with a boyfriend and dad opens on them and has the guy arrested for rape he's doomed, because girlfriend's view is not relevant? That does feel like correct. After all it was the prosecutor and the judge who had that certain cock in them.Surely they know better what happened and how the victim felt. That is bullshit.

They can arest you if they have probable cause to believe you have committed rape. As a practical matter, they probably lose the case if the GF will testify for the defense. This is a good reason to talk to the victim first, assuming she is still alive.

I don't remember Daenerys dying after she laid with Drogo... :dunno: So probably her own point counts? Maybe? A little? :bang:

The legal issue is not whether the victim is, in retrospect, happy about being raped, but whether she was raped.

Ah, so if I have sex with someone and I'm happy about it that's still rape?

What will matter is not the victim's definition of "rape" but the legal definition of "rape."

Legal definitions can be interpreted in a hundred ways. How else would lawyers work? Also, in GoT world there's no such thing as legal definition for rape so WHY are we discussing 21st century law in relevance of a fictional love story failing to be politically correct?

Note that I have expressed no opinion about whether Drogo raped Dany. Frankly I think we should just hang the bastard for mass murder and have done with it.

Noted. Good the thread is about whether Drogo raped Dany. You made me have such a great trust in law.... After all I'm happy I didn't end up studying law... Not that Economics has any more to with reality...

[Castel]

Ah, so if I have sex with someone and I'm happy about it that's still rape?

If you withheld consent yes. It doesn't matter if they were the best twelve orgasms of your life, you were raped.

So one can be forced to testify something she doesn't believe? And that is legal?

The view of the victim is not relevant.

So if one has sex with a boyfriend and dad opens on them and has the guy arrested for rape he's doomed, because girlfriend's view is not relevant? That does feel like correct. After all it was the prosecutor and the judge who had that certain cock in them.Surely they know better what happened and how the victim felt. That is bullshit.

The problem is, people aren't always sane or know what's in their best interests. A lot of people, especially men, will not admit they were raped, they would rather pretend to have some say in the issue to maintain some sort of power over the situation.A lot of them want to pretend it never happened and just go on with their lives. And a possible rapist could walk free. And rape again. That's the main concern of the government here. If she goes up there and says that she gave consent then there wouldn't be any rape, but most likely the person was rationalising the issue away if they were forced to the stand.

[butterbumps!]

What do people think about Asha and Qarl's sex scene? I'm genuinely curious, given the extremely draconian stance some are taking on this. To be honest, a lot of these arguments sound as though all sex is rape. Can someone elucidate where sex becomes rape? Especially in light of these arguments that posit that the two parties in question cannot be trusted to decide whether the sex that they engaged in was consensual or emotionally healthy. That's more than applying modern standards, that's taking it to a whole extreme of nanny-state sex policing. The arguments I'm seeing sound like 2 people need to exchange some kind of contract in the presence of a lawyer in order to be considered consent.

If you withheld consent yes. It doesn't matter if they were the best twelve orgasms of your life, you were raped.

The problem is, people aren't always sane or know what's in their best interests. A lot of people, especially men, will not admit they were raped, they would rather pretend to have some say in the issue to maintain some sort of power over the situation.A lot of them want to pretend it never happened and just go on with their lives. And a possible rapist could walk free. And rape again. That's the main concern of the government here. If she goes up there and says that she gave consent then there wouldn't be any rape, but most likely the person was rationalising the issue away if they were forced to the stand.

I agree with the idea that rapes occur and the victims do not want to admit to the fact that they were raped for a variety of reasons. Yet, in the case of Dany as posted by the OP, we have a privileged vantage point from which to see whether she does in fact undergo a struggle with feelings of shame, secrecy and other emotions that tend to silence rape victims. As it happens, she does not undergo such a struggle where she rationalizes feelings of violation regarding the sex she has.

[Lummel]

Asha and Qarl? Role play.

[butterbumps!]

Oh come now!

So it's ok to role play a rape scene when a girl gets off on the idea of submission, but a woman who respects her man more because he's rough with her is rape?

[Queen Cersei I]

Oh come now!

So it's ok to role play a rape scene when a girl gets off on the idea of submission, but a woman who respects her man more because he's rough with her is rape?

The fundamental difference between role playing games and "a man being rough with a woman" (I'm presuming you mean Drogo/ Danerys here) is that role playing is an instance of two people making a concious decision to enjoy sexual games/ experiments. Not really something I'm into personally, but the basic bottom line is this-- in situations like Asha and Quarl's, both partners have (almost surely) spoken beforehand and decided to play some erotic games.

The difference is that Asha is in utter control of the situation, she is acting clearly on her own erotic desires (which, I guess, happen to involve submission or games of it). The two have clearly communicated, and both partners are being respectful of the others needs and having their own desires met.

The crucial issue here in the Asha vs. Dany situations is that choice is involved. With Asha, both her and Quarl have equal input and say in their relationship, and everything that's being done is being done because both partners desire it. In contrast, Danerys is being dominated and things are being done to her that cause her discomfort, unhappiness, and outright physical pain. Again, the quote (which I realize is repetitive, but I think is pretty crucial here):

"Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from begind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night."

In my mind, there is no way that this is at all comparable to the Asha/ Quarl situation.

So it's ok to role play a rape scene when a girl gets off on the idea of submission,

I'm not sure I'd define any sort of consensual sex between adult partners as morally wrong, no. For most things like this, I'd say it's none of my bloody bussiness.

of submission, but a woman who respects her man more because he's rough with her is rape?

I'd say it's not so much "not okay" but some of us would contend it goes against psychological realism and believable characterization.

[corbon]

Asha and Qarl? Role play.

Wow! Thems some dangerous lines to balance. What I saw was explicit non-consent being ignored, then her being turned on by it from an existing lover and basically changing her mind during the act.

A thousand times more rape than anything between Drogo and Dany, where we implicitly saw consent from the start and during the act and never saw non-consent.

We didn't see any agreement between Qarl and Asha to roleplay. We didn't see Asha assisting Qarl in any way. We did see explicit non-consent, which we never saw from Dany.

I only reread that scene a couple of days ago. Did I miss something that badly?

[Queen Cersei I]

Wow! Thems some dangerous lines to balance. What I saw was explicit non-consent being ignored, then her being turned on by it from an existing lover and basically changing her mind during the act.

From Asha's comments afterward, it was clear that her and Quarl were having a sexual relationship, and that they enjoyed fulfilling sexual fantasies with each other. Asha didn't change her mind. Most readers could easily infer that this was a sexual game that they had discussed beforehand and clearly agreed upon. Full consent on both sides.

Your hypothesis that "Asha said no, but changed her mind halfway through" (interestingly, this is the first time I've ever heard this interpretation, ever. Every single other poster I've heard from has interpreted it as clear consensual roleplaying on the part of Qarl and Asha) is not supported by the text.

The text shows Qarl coming into Asha's chambers, saying for her to take off her clothes, her refusing, then them having pleasant sex, and it is made clear that Asha was utterly willing and that this was something that was planned/ consensual.

A thousand times more rape than anything between Drogo and Dany, where we implicitly saw consent from the start and during the act and never saw non-consent.

Sorry to pick on you personally, however, this is an issue I've seen a lot of on these threads. One instance of consent does not equal lifelong consent for each and every sexual act. The fact that Danerys consented at the beginning does not automatically equal consent to each and every sex act in the future.

Wow! Thems some dangerous lines to balance.

Not really. I think if one has open communication with one's sex partner and respects their wishes, there is no danger whatsoever. A role playing game where force is pretended is not rape, because both partners are aware and in control and equals.

We didn't see any agreement between Qarl and Asha to roleplay.

Well, we didn't have Danerys standing up and announcing: "readers-- I am officially sick with the plague!" either, because it was rather unnecessary to do so. One could easily infer that she was sick from her bloody diarrea. Similarly, given what Asha tells us directly after the event, the Qarl/ Asha thing was planned, something Asha and Qarl chose to consent to. Everything we are told about Asha and Qarl and their relationship points in this direction.

[Lummel]

It's the context and specifically the power dynamic that is different between the two cases, so the instances after Dany's wedding night and before her dragon dream read as rape to me while Asha and Quarl don't. That's my response as a reader, clearly as far as Drogo is concerned the concept of rape may not even exist for him. The differences between our responses as readers, however, seem insurmountable in this case.

[butterbumps!]

From Asha's comments afterward, it was clear that her and Quarl were having a sexual relationship, and that they enjoyed fulfilling sexual fantasies with each other. Asha didn't change her mind. Most readers could easily infer that this was a sexual game that they had discussed beforehand and clearly agreed upon. Full consent on both sides.

Right. The reactions in the aftermath of a sexual encounter does in fact have bearing on whether or not a rape occurred. You show enough respect for Asha to understand that they were having a fulfilling relationship, yet you deny Dany the ability to make this decision for herself. You read consent into Asha's relationship despite the fact that we are not literally told of any previous agreement they had to act out scenarios, and on the flip side, you read explicit non-consent into Dany's portion of this.

I fail to understand why it is so imperative that Dany is always a victim.

[Lyanna Stark]

Right. The reactions in the aftermath of a sexual encounter does in fact have bearing on whether or not a rape occurred. You show enough respect for Asha to understand that they were having a fulfilling relationship, yet you deny Dany the ability to make this decision for herself. You read consent into Asha's relationship despite the fact that we are not literally told of any previous agreement they had to act out scenarios, and on the flip side, you read explicit non-consent into Dany's portion of this.

I fail to understand why it is so imperative that Dany is always a victim.

The difference is how they saw it though. Asha is clearly happy with how things panned out as she makes an effort to wake Qarl up for a round 2, while Dany is clearly in such pain that she cannot even sleep (based on the quote Queen Cersei posted above).

The power dynamic is also completely different as Lummel pointed out. Dany is a much younger wife to Drogo and he has absolute power over her. Asha is Qarl's superior and she has power over him (and I believe she is also somewhat older, or at least of the same age). Asha is also able to communicate with Qarl, should she need to. Dany does not have this option since she at the time did not speak Dothraki. She was not able to voice her own wishes since even if she tried, Drogo would not understand what she was saying.

Dany has to be presented as a victim at first, because otherwise, how can she rise and take charge of the situation on her own? That is Dany's great character development in early AGOT, that despite the horrors she has faced, she finds immense strength in the dragon dream to turn everything around, or at least to make the best out of a terrible situation. She becomes empowered, but she isn't empowered to start with.

[Lummel]

... You show enough respect for Asha to understand that they were having a fulfilling relationship, yet you deny Dany the ability to make this decision for herself...

I think this kind of sums up how differently we are reading on this issue. I don't think I am denying Dany anything, I'm going by what the text shows in the context of Asha and Dany.

Subconsciously or magically Dany does go through a change once she has her dragon dream - this is a rebirth for her. But it seems to me that before her dragon dream that Dany is a victim and used as a chattel while Asha is a captain and leader of men people, capable of dealing with people as an equal.

[ishmael]

From Asha's comments afterward, it was clear that her and Quarl were having a sexual relationship, and that they enjoyed fulfilling sexual fantasies with each other. Asha didn't change her mind. Most readers could easily infer that this was a sexual game that they had discussed beforehand and clearly agreed upon. Full consent on both sides.

Your hypothesis that "Asha said no, but changed her mind halfway through" (interestingly, this is the first time I've ever heard this interpretation, ever. Every single other poster I've heard from has interpreted it as clear consensual roleplaying on the part of Qarl and Asha) is not supported by the text.

The text shows Qarl coming into Asha's chambers, saying for her to take off her clothes, her refusing, then them having pleasant sex, and it is made clear that Asha was utterly willing and that this was something that was planned/ consensual.

Sorry to pick on you personally, however, this is an issue I've seen a lot of on these threads. One instance of consent does not equal lifelong consent for each and every sexual act. The fact that Danerys consented at the beginning does not automatically equal consent to each and every sex act in the future.

Not really. I think if one has open communication with one's sex partner and respects their wishes, there is no danger whatsoever. A role playing game where force is pretended is not rape, because both partners are aware and in control and equals.

Well, we didn't have Danerys standing up and announcing: "readers-- I am officially sick with the plague!" either, because it was rather unnecessary to do so. One could easily infer that she was sick from her bloody diarrea. Similarly, given what Asha tells us directly after the event, the Qarl/ Asha thing was planned, something Asha and Qarl chose to consent to. Everything we are told about Asha and Qarl and their relationship points in this direction.

You can't have it both ways. In one case you claim there was "obviously" some previous consent that occurred or was discussed off screen(not in the text) that holds weight during the scene in question, but in a case where consent is clearly given in the text, it does not apply to future liaisons. It doesn't work that way. If you take Asha's thoughts and feeling into consideration despite her verbally saying NO to the sex, then you also have to take Dany's thoughts and feeling into consideration when she does not indicate NO either verbally or physically. Just like Asha, Dany never has any thoughts that what happened between her and Drogo was against her will or abusive. Painful yes, but not unwilling.

I read both scenes as being consensual. I see them that way because there was never anything in the POV characters thoughts or actions during the scene in question or after it to give the impression that they had feelings of being violated, abused, or raped. The argument that the sex caused Dany's pain totally disregards the previous text that states she was so stiff, sore, and painful that she had to be helped off her horse and to her tent. Her pain level was already very high, so to say that the sex alone was the only reason that she hurt is greatly exaggerating what the text says. Also, there is the issue that just because sex is painful does not mean the one in pain was raped.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

If you take Asha's thoughts and feeling into consideration despite her verbally saying NO to the sex, then you also have to take Dany's thoughts and feeling into consideration when she does not indicate NO either verbally or physically. Just like Asha, Dany never has any thoughts that what happened between her and Drogo was against her will or abusive. Painful yes, but not unwilling.

As support compare Asha and Dany's internal thoughts about their sexual encounters with those of Cersei's attitude toward Robert's.

[Lyanna Stark]

Just like Asha, Dany never has any thoughts that what happened between her and Drogo was against her will or abusive. Painful yes, but not unwilling.

OK; I may just be really, really thick, but why on God's green earth would you assume that unless someone is a masochist, they would consent over and over again to extremely painful sex. Just....why? How does that even work? Why would she be willing to accept pain?

[ishmael]

As support compare Asha and Dany's internal thoughts about their sexual encounters with those of Cersei's attitude toward Robert's.

I agree. Cersei definitely has thoughts that her encounter was not consensual. I'm not saying that she wasn't raped here, but it is also interesting that Cersei really hates Robert and just how much she hates him. I don't think her like or dislike of Robert changes the fact that he forced to have sex.

We have three women with three different perspectives on their sex lives. Asha's is playful and she wants and is satisfied with her physical relationship with Q. Dany wants the physical relationship with Drogo, but is in pain from her change in lifestyle. Cersei is in pain from the sex and is utterly disgusted with having to have a sexual relationship with Robert.