[Book spoiler] Aren't you bothered?

[Sxxman]

The problem though is it isn't the people she demanded help from without leverage, the Thirteen, that stole her dragons. It was the warlocks, at least that seems to be the assumption, who she only met in passing and never demanded anything of. How does this teach her a lesson in humility. Also by having a different group within Qarth break into the house of one of the Thirteen and murder his guards and steal from his guest seems like an insult that could not stand. It wouldn't be just Dany that would have a grievance against them, but a group of the most powerful people in Qarth. The dragons weren't stolen in the books because they couldn't be, not because of Dany, but because of Xaro.

What if was Xaro who helped orchestrate the kidnapping after learning that Dany rejected his proposal. After all it was an awfully long wait for Dany to meet with the Spice King. The lesson in humility is that she believes that she is entitled to everything and behaves as if she leads a huge army when she only has some Khalessi, Jorah and 3 dragons that can't defend themselves. But your whole statement is making my point for me, you're refusing to see how it plays out, you just stamp BAD before you know what happens.

[elonepb]

There are a bunch of deviations from the book, but I haven't been upset about many. And regarding Dany's dragon heist, I think this might be partly a way to give an "exciting" plot twist to her character, as many have suggested. But also, I've read in numerous places that budgeting for the show is obviously limited so they've tried and limited the amount of time we've actually seen dragons. Usually it's only 1 and the rest are in their cage and just referred to through visual cues or sounds.

I can't recall in the book whether Dany brings a dragon with her into the HOTU, but I seem to think she did. If so, they would need to have this CGI dragon with her the entire time, as opposed to just having her rescue them somehow and achieving the same end goal.

BTW, first post. Love everyone's comments, glad to be a member now.

[Sword of the Morning Wood]

It seemed all so sudden, and so unnatural. I'm referring to the opening of this weeks episode. The acting seemed forced and not natural.

I thought the opening was fantastic and very well acted. It was a powerful scene IMO. From Bran's initial reaction to Theon, to Farlen's insult, to Rodrik's defiance and especially when Rodrik was executed.

And not to mention the HUGE diversion from the books. This whole episode seemed 40% different from the books, which - yes - did bother me.

I'm referring to the way Theon captured Winterfell, how Rodrik died, how LF presented himself to Tywin and how impossible Jaqen's killing of that dude who couldn't read seemed. I mean; I know the FM can do some pretty epic shizzle, but not in that way. It seemed too forced.

If there are differences in the show which are silly or make it worse I'll say so. I don't like this bitter fanboy attitude of any difference = bad.

Theon captured Winterfell in eaxctly the same way he did in the books.

They've obviously chosen to omit Rodrik's seige and Ramsey's attack. It would have been cool to see IMO but it's not vital and it makes sense to kill Rodrik this way if that's what's going to happen.

I didn't really like LF appearing at Harrenhal, mostly because I know it how long it would take him to get from KL to Renly to Harrenhal but I don't see the major problem apart from it being "different to the book". LF is crucial in building the Lannister - Tyrell alliance and that's all the show is portraying.

How was Lorch's death impossible. Jaqen is known from the books to be an incredibly skilled assassin possibly with magical abilities or at least abilities which would appear magic to people who don't understand them. Are you saying that compeltely chaging his physical appearance to realistic, believable and a great storyline but him managing to kill Lorch, unnoticed just before he gets to Tywin is ridiculous?

Ask yourself, if Martin had written it the way the TV show has gone and the TV show had then changed it to the way Martin wrote it, would you be congratulating HBO on great writing or ranting on here that it was "too different".

Or how about that dragon storyline for Daenarys! I know I know, 'it's television and needs to be different' or 'otherwise she wouldn't have a big role', BUT still, it seemed too different. Now Dany will probably go to the house of the undying because her dragons were stolen; no such thing happened in the books.

I'm going to wait to see how this plays out before I judge it.

[ShadowRaven]

Even if GRRM had written these scenes - which I doubt somehow - I would still be upset about it. The main reason I like ASOIAF is because of the vivid details and time it takes to show you epic moments. Not the rushed moments like in the series sort of. That can't be helped however, but it can be helped to put priorities. Like; how come we have an actress taking the role of a whore and getting air time, while the Reeds and Bolton's Bastard is neglected? Of course the Ramsay is gonna make a show, but it all depends how.

If they ruin Jon's meeting with Mance, I'm going to be even more upset. Oh well.

[Mr Fixit]

the problem i have with the changes is that so many of them are cliche

have robb fall for the beautiful peasant, no wait high born lady who just so happens to be spying for your enemy but dont worry love will conquer all

Arya with a kill wish spell handy spends weeks with the father of the brat who chopped off your head and you dont use it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do know that essentialy the same happens in the books as well, don't you? Robb falls hopelessly in love with a girl who was tending his wounds. Oh, and her family is part of enemy forces! As for Arya, it should be pretty obvious from the books themselves that she is targeting those that have somehow wronged her. Tywin, on the other hand, is one of the few that is actually treating her decently. And no, that doesn't mean he has heart of gold. That's just silly.

[Morvran]

The actor playing Bran did a terrible job when Theon burst in. He looked like he wanted to hit the snooze and go back to sleep.

The last time he saw Theon he was a friend and a brother. I thought the actor was terrific in that scene. He starts off like any little brother who's been tricked into gags one too many times would by trying to blow him off. (Dude, you're not going to fool me again. I'm not falling for it). And then as the scene moves on it starts to sink in (and he starts to wake up...we *was* woken from sleep you know).

[Sword of the Morning Wood]

Even if GRRM had written these scenes - which I doubt somehow - I would still be upset about it. The main reason I like ASOIAF is because of the vivid details and time it takes to show you epic moments. Not the rushed moments like in the series sort of. That can't be helped however, but it can be helped to put priorities. Like; how come we have an actress taking the role of a whore and getting air time, while the Reeds and Bolton's Bastard is neglected? Of course the Ramsay is gonna make a show, but it all depends how.

If they ruin Jon's meeting with Mance, I'm going to be even more upset. Oh well.

I'd agree with that. We know we're not going to get the same amount of detail in the TV show unless you drastically lengthen the episodes or number of episodes which just isn't economically viable presumabley. But you're right, given that, I'd rather they dropped uninteresting, non-book characters like Ros and committed more air-time to the main characters where possible. Ros was OK in S1 where the book was more linear and they probably felt they could include more of the book in the show but in aCoK, so much happens that fitting it all into 10 hours was difficult enough without wasting time on Ros.

I hope the writers will consider that. On another point, I read that GRRM liked the character of Ros and it was actually his idea to make her a named character rather than just a nameless cameo so if people are so upset about it, GRRM is at least complicit in that decision, if not outright responsible.

[Septon Meribald]

I'd agree with that. We know we're not going to get the same amount of detail in the TV show unless you drastically lengthen the episodes or number of episodes which just isn't economically viable presumabley. But you're right, given that, I'd rather they dropped uninteresting, non-book characters like Ros and committed more air-time to the main characters where possible. Ros was OK in S1 where the book was more linear and they probably felt they could include more of the book in the show but in aCoK, so much happens that fitting it all into 10 hours was difficult enough without wasting time on Ros.

I hope the writers will consider that. On another point, I read that GRRM liked the character of Ros and it was actually his idea to make her a named character rather than just a nameless cameo so if people are so upset about it, GRRM is at least complicit in that decision, if not outright responsible.

Ros in the first season was unnecessary sexposition at best and an insult to all the character's intelligence (why everyone tells everything about themselves to any woman without a shirt on is beyond me) at worst. This season she seems to have taken Chataya's role and I'm sure she will be featured again in a compromising position. That being said, the scene with Joffrey was entirely unnecessary. If there was ever a character who didn't need to show more evidence that he's a terrible person it's Joffrey. The point has been established beyond a doubt.

[Morrigan]

Honestly I'd prefer any changes that are made to have a reason. That being said, I don't necessarily mind changes, I just ask that they make sense. Ser Rodrik being beheaded by Theon has emotional implications and removes the need for the battle outside Winterfell, which I'm sure would cause time and budget issues. This is ok with me.

It doesn't matter, people will tell you to accept any change whatsoever because "it's an adaptation get over it".

I mean, why not make that Dagmer is actually originally Ramsey Snow who got trained as a Faceless Man in Braavos as a child and he took on Dagmer's identity so that the Ironborn would still know him, but he'll turn out to be Roose's bastard all along doing Roose's bidding. Why not? It's an adaptation, changes are gonna happen. Get over it. Etc.

As for the dragon theft. I understand the desire for motivation for Dany, but I thought there was already ample motivation. 'I have no power to take back Westeros, the rulers of Qarth won't help me, the warlocks say they will, I will go to them." This seems like a reasonable and ample motivation for Dany to go to the House of the Undying. It also makes her betrayal once there more meaningful.

Yup. Just like a wounded, feverish Robb, distraught at losing his two brothers, getting "comforted" by a woman is reasonable and believable enough (but that's not Hollywood-romance enough). Just like Osha kicking a guy in the nuts and telling Theon "give me a spear", and him smirking at her spiritedness and giving her one, is reasonable enough (but no bewbies that way). Just like Jon letting Ygritte go because he can't kill a woman, was a reasonable, believable enough explanation for his motivations (but no er, pointless chase in the snow and fur-grinding that way...?).

If they're going to change things around, it should be either out of necessity for reasons of budget, time, limitations of the visual format, an improvement over the source material, or at the very least, something equally good as the source, something well-written and internally consistent. Tyrion's lines at his trial were such an example. Ned yelling "Baelor!" at Yoren was another. Ser Rodrik's execution was a powerful scene and it worked even if not in the book (I thought Ramsay murdering him was just as shocking, but Theon executing him made for such a good scene with Bran and the smallfolk around and for establishing Theon's total heel turn that I file that under "equally as good", at the very least, it's a good replacement over using Beth Cassel as hostage). Theon lashing out at Balon for sending him away was actually brilliant and very powerful. Whaddaya know, an improvement over the book! I always thought Theon, or at least someone should have pointed out Balon's hypocrisy to him. Good job, whoever wrote that. See, am I still a purist now? I just don't see anything good about the Jon/Ygritte, Robb/Talissa, and Dany/dragon theft scenes at all because they were sloppy and poorly written.

[Sword of the Morning Wood]

Ros in the first season was unnecessary sexposition at best and an insult to all the character's intelligence (why everyone tells everything about themselves to any woman without a shirt on is beyond me) at worst. This season she seems to have taken Chataya's role and I'm sure she will be featured again in a compromising position. That being said, the scene with Joffrey was entirely unnecessary. If there was ever a character who didn't need to show more evidence that he's a terrible person it's Joffrey. The point has been established beyond a doubt.

I can't remember anyone telling Ros anything which was that sensitive. The writers will have a bit a manipulating to do to get Ros into Chataya's or Alayaya's role since Shae has effectively skipped the manse and gone straight to handmaid (albeit with Sansa). I'm not sure if they'll write some kind of Alayaya storyline or just move on to Cersei finding out about Shae. They'd have to work in some kind of Tyrion/Ros connection which isn't there yet. I suppose Tyrion could conceivably go to Ros to apologise for Joffrey.

I get the stuff about laying on Joffrey's cuntishness too think although Martin does this again and again in the books. He wrote about Joffrey shooting hares for sport, shooting commoners at the gates of the Red Keep and telling them to eat their dead if they were hungry. The show hasn't done that so IMO, they're not laying it on any thicker than the books did. If it was unnecessary in the show, it was also unnecessary in the books. Although you could argue that the show has to be more selective in where it spends it's time.

[SerMixalot]

I for one am finding myself questioning ALOT of the creative choices being made. I initially was just accepting them as required for budgeting and time and all like that, but the more I think of it, the writers could have stayed much closer to the book and stayed within budget and time. Many of their choices are just lame. Creating the whole talisa story line is weak weak weak. It would have been far cooler to have a scene with Robb meeting his mother with his new bride and trying to explain. having Cat hanging with Robb at this point messes up so much of the character development. It strikes me as the writers are chickening out on the story telling.

They HAVE to show Robb, the HAVE to show Dany, despite their secondary roles in the 2nd book. Sucks really.

[SerMixalot]

the funny thing is that they really didnt have to change Dany's story arc from the second book to have an interesting arc, small but important, laying foundation for season three.

Scene 1: Marching through the Redwaste

Scene 2: Inside the Abandoned City/Meeting the Reps from Qarth

Scene 3: Entering Qarth

Scene 4: Meeting the 13/Exposition with XXD

Scene 5: Going to the HotU

Scene 6: Aftermath of HotU/More Exposition with XXD-Showing Dany has worn out her welcome

Scene 7: Meeting Selmy and Belwas on the docks

We can see her grow as a Queen, learning, interacting with exotic peoples, attempted seductions, prophecies of the future, murder attempt. Simple but not "ACTIONY" enough. Spread those 7 scenes over 8 or 9 episodes and you have her arc with her ending up realizing she needs an army and introduced to the concept of the Unsullied (Shit there could be a few Unsullied at the mart that Jorah could describe). and a nice smooth arc, staying with the book and interesting.

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

A thought about the new Robb storyline. I just wonder whether the programme makers are doing their best to get the audience to invest much more in Robb and feel a greater emotional tie to him throughout the rest of this series and however many episodes of the next until we get to You Know What. They are no doubt hoping to give that event even greater impact. It's the sort of thing they would do. Unnecessary, I know, but that may be the way they are thinking. And yet again - *yawn* - they've no doubt had feedback about the girlies liking Richard Madden. IMHO they are not handling the storyline quite right, though. Something seems very false about it.

[Septon Meribald]

I get the stuff about laying on Joffrey's cuntishness too think although Martin does this again and again in the books. He wrote about Joffrey shooting hares for sport, shooting commoners at the gates of the Red Keep and telling them to eat their dead if they were hungry. The show hasn't done that so IMO, they're not laying it on any thicker than the books did. If it was unnecessary in the show, it was also unnecessary in the books. Although you could argue that the show has to be more selective in where it spends it's time.

The difference is in the books these were asides. Someone remembers the time Joffrey cut open a cat to see if it was prenant, one paragraph. Sansa observes Joffrey firing a crossbow at the gates, half a page, before talking to him and being abused as we are updated on the events in King's Landing and the larger war. Using 10% of an episode to show that Joffrey is a dick is well beyond what's necessary. If you want to have that in the show open on a scene where he pronounces a harsh sentence, 'You say he stole from you, he says you lie. Ser Ilyn remove that man's hand and that man's tongue,' then a one liner about how pathetic the commoners are and proceed with the important scene.

[IronSuitor]

A thought about the new Robb storyline. I just wonder whether the programme makers are doing their best to get the audience to invest much more in Robb and feel a greater emotional tie to him throughout the rest of this series and however many episodes of the next until we get to You Know What. They are no doubt hoping to give that event even greater impact. It's the sort of thing they would do. Unnecessary, I know, but that may be the way they are thinking. And yet again - *yawn* - they've no doubt had feedback about the girlies liking Richard Madden. IMHO they are not handling the storyline quite right, though. Something seems very false about it.

As opposed to him just showing up one day with a wife, which wouldn't have seemed odd at all.

[RL Terrill]

Because it's a big change in Robb's character . Him marrying Jeyne Westerling was due to a moment of very understandable weakness after hearing his two young brothers were murdered by the person he considered a brother as well, and who would never had been able to do it if it wasn't for Robb letting him go; and to his( stupid?) Ned-like honor who made it impossible for him not to assume his responsibilities towards the girl he had "dishonored".

That's not exactly the same as breaking a promise because of some girl he fall in love with on the battlefield . Though we don't know what's going to happen exactly so maybe it won't look as stupid as I fear it will.

It could still play out that Robb, wounded and devastated by the news from Winterfell, falls into the arms of the 'mystery girl/medic', just as he did with Jayne in the book. It seems to me that everything could still follow Martin's plot point.

I do not believe that she is a spy, and as someone else has posted elsewhere, she, a minor house nobleman's daughter, just got caught between the two armies and is hiding in plan sight. IMO

She falls for him, they marry in haste, because of Robb's sense of honor and their youth, and that sets in motion the offstage dealings between Tywin and the mystery girl's family, resulting in the Red Wedding. Seems to be an easier way for a non-book audience to grasp why Robb would do what he does, vice having him marry some girl the viewer has not met.

I even think it makes for a smoother telling of the actions of a non-POV book character without having to explain to viewers who the Westerlings are, their relationship between the Starks and Lannisters, why they would suddenly become Stark bannermen, and without having Robb move into their castle . This way the viewer witnesses the relationship, can witness a deal made between Tywin and the girl's family and then the blood flows ......

[Mr Fixit]

As opposed to him just showing up one day with a wife, which wouldn't have seemed odd at all.

Well, some people just don't get the difference between POV and non-POV structure. Someone else said it best on these forums: I really hope for episode 9, which Martin wrote, to be extremely different than the books. I am so looking forward to does not compute lights blinking in so many minds trying to somehow solve the conundrum of Martin betraying Martin.

[Fantôme]

It could still play out that Robb, wounded and devastated by the news from Winterfell, falls into the arms of the 'mystery girl/medic', just as he did with Jayne in the book. It seems to me that everything could still follow Martin's plot point.

I do not believe that she is a spy, and as someone else has posted elsewhere, she, a minor house nobleman's daughter, just got caught between the two armies and is hiding in plan sight. IMO

She falls for him, they marry in haste, because of Robb's sense of honor and their youth, and that sets in motion the offstage dealings between Tywin and the mystery girl's family, resulting in the Red Wedding. Seems to be an easier way for a non-book audience to grasp why Robb would do what he does, vice having him marry some girl the viewer has not met.

I even think it makes for a smoother telling of the actions of a non-POV book character without having to explain to viewers who the Westerlings are, their relationship between the Starks and Lannisters, why they would suddenly become Stark bannermen, and without having Robb move into their castle . This way the viewer witnesses the relationship, can witness a deal made between Tywin and the girl's family and then the blood flows ......

I hope you're right. If it plays out this way I won't have a problem with it except for the incredible cheesiness of their interactions.Though I also got the feeling that the "I'm writing whatever to the Lannisters" was a truth disguised as a false lie.Of course it would be incredibly stupid to write a letter to the enemy in the middle of the camp. Guess I'll just wait and see!

[RL Terrill]

I find myself taken aback by the point of view that Robb and Jon would be so easily tripped up by love.

They are just boys really, aged a bit for the TV, but still young and inexperienced in the emotional turmoil that falling in love brings into ones life. We know for a fact that Jon is a virgin. Robb, being older, perhaps not, but love is different than a romp with Roz.

I think it is perfectly understandable for them both to be completely taken with these girls under normal circumstances, add to that the fog of war, family being torn apart, their youth and loneliness and it becomes a sure thing, in my eyes anyway.

As to why Robb would make such a 'dumb' move, risking the entire North, well our own history is full of such fateful choices. The King of England who threw over his throne in order to marry a divorced American woman for one, all in the months just prior to WWll no less.

It would be a bit beyond belief that no one here has never made a 'dumb' decision in the name of love for another. I have made a couple of doozies .......LOL

I, for one will enjoy the brief moments of love for these two. Their paths are difficult enough, as we who have read the books know.

[SerMixalot]

Noone is saying that love doesnt get R and J in trouble, GRRM nicely presents those stories, they are integral to the plot. Jons relationship to Ygrette impacts his relationship to the NW, I would even say impacts his decsion to march on Winterfell. Robb's character clearly is impacted by impetuous love (in the book).

What I have a problem with is the heavy handedness of the series in establishing that. It insults the watcher to have to resort to such cliches (RObb) and non sequitors (Jon) when there is enough material in the books to make it work.

I think it would have been EPIC to have a scene with Cat meeting Robb at Riverrun-Cat nervous about Robbs reaction to her freeing Jaime, being cornered by Robb's forgiveness and then finding out about Jeyne. The viewers would have had to be smart to pick up on the exchanges in those scenes, the acting and direction would have to have been perfect, but when it would have worked it would have been great.

Instead we have Westerosi 90210, with cliches running rampant

BOOOO