What is Dany's long-term plan for Westeros...

[Stanmore]

I think you bring up some excellent points. I wonder how Dany will confront the horrible slavers of Khal Jhaqo's Kalasar. No doubt her first priority will be to release the slaves, stop the rape, and execute the rest of the Khalasar leadership to set an example? or will they all be forced (convinced) to fight for her? It will be good to see another example of Dany ignoring the culture and economy of a people for her own end, after all

I think it's pretty clear Dany was more than a little naïve when it came to Drogo and the Dothraki.

Think about it, at first she was petrified by Drogo and saw the Dothraki as nothing more than barbarians. How ever as she starts to fall in love with her sun and stars I think she becomes more than a little infatuated with the Dothraki way of life. It's new it's different and she's treated like a queen.

However I think the scales fall from her eyes when she sees first hand how the Dothraki make their living. She tries to save the Lamb women from rape, and she's clearly horrified by the death and destruction. She treats Mirri Maz Duur, like a person, not a slave and after Drogo's death she free's all the slaves who remain with the Khalasar.

If she takes command of the Dothraki again, I think it will be on her own terms this time.

as you said above.

Dany is an extremely untrustworthy narrator. She may claim her goals are of emancipation, but only when she needs her slaves for something, for example a political base, or warring tool. She does release her slaves, but is willing to profit from the slave trade when she can do it. The Dothraki will be an interesting case as their entire economy is based on the slave trade. They have no factors of production, no sustainable outputs for trade, no capital and no skills. and yet, she will cow them, use them, and ultimately either be forced to kill them, or set them upon westeros/essos to raid, rape, and enslave.

She's not willing to profit from the slave trade. She's inherently against the idea, but her advisors continue to barrage her with requests to restore their way of life. She doesn't want people to sell themselves into slavery or to reopen the fighting pits, but eventually her subjects wear her down with their endless petitions. It's pointed out that people are doing them of their own free choice. She's given her children freedom and it's up to them what they do with it. Making money from it is just pragmatism If they want to fight to the death ,and the people want to see it then the city might as well profit from it. Yes there's an element of her comprimising her ideals, but that comprimise is the entire point of the meereen subplot. She's not gleeful in it but she feels she doesn't have a choice.

Edit:

I don't think I really answered your points about what would happen if she takes controll of a dothraki Khalasar. In my opinion she wouldn't let the dothraki run rampant over the westeros countryside. I think some elements of the Dothraki might try to get in a little rape and pillage, but i see her coming down pretty hard on them if they do. She certainy wouldn't let them take slaves. I think it's possible that she might push them towards settling down as farmers or something. Given the amount of people killed in the war of the 5 kings, and the much greater amount winter threatens to take i'm pretty sure there will be land to spare. Jon and stannis are doing pretty much the same thing with the wildlings after all. What the dothraki would make of that remains to be seen.

Also:

Perhaps the people you mention were not worse. I stress perhaps. Certainly Tywin sending the mountain into the Riverlands to slash and burn, literally putting entire villages to the sword was worse. The bastard of Bolton did the same thing in Winterfel. Was Khal Drogo different? Was the difference that in Essos that they were children? Her response was vengence plain and simple. I probably would have a similar response in her situation, but it does not mean it is the correct response. There was no facilitation to ensure that the 163 responsible were the ones that had anything to do with it. The ones presented could have been coerced, threatened, or manipulated into presenting themselves as one of the 163 for all we know.

Maybe it's not the worst thing to happen in the series but it's up there. Certainly other peoples actions have lead to more suffering in the long run, but as a deliberate act of sadisim against the innocent and helpless it's pretty hard to beat.

Anyway if there had been a trial, it's more than likely that the wrong people would have been put forward and that the rich and powerfull would have escaped justice. She didn't have time for a trial, she needed to exert her authority as soon as possible. She gave the masters of meereen the choice of who to bring to her. If they sent the innocent to their deaths and spared the guilty that was their decision.

[Euphail]

She's not willing to profit from the slave trade. She's inherently against the idea, but her advisors continue to barrage her with requests to restore their way of life. She doesn't want people to sell themselves into slavery or to reopen the fighting pits, but eventually her subjects wear her down with their endless petitions. It's pointed out that people are doing them of their own free choice. She's given her children freedom and it's up to them what they do with it. Making money from it is just pragmatism If they want to fight to the death ,and the people want to see it then the city might as well profit from it. Yes there's an element of her comprimising her ideals, but that comprimise is the entire point of the meereen subplot. She's not gleeful in it but she feels she doesn't have a choice.

I'm sorry, but could you clarify? Is she against it? or is she willing to do it? Because what I take from your arguement is that if I ever meet Dany, I should just pester her a lot and I'll get my way, regardless if she is against the idea to begin with or not.

I thought she was intending to rule Mereen.

Where she fails is making sweeping changes without a long term plan, especially an economic plan. "Oh look, I destroyed the basis of their economy, might as well sit around and not provide other means of production or making income, teehee."

Not to mention that when she attempts to plant beens, she effectively uses slaves to do it.

If she takes command of the Dothraki again, I think it will be on her own terms this time.

Hello repeat of Mereen!!! You propose that if she takes control of a culture that is not only centred on slavery, but its sole basis for existance is slavery, she will magically convert them to not be slavers?

Certainly other peoples actions have lead to more suffering in the long run, but as a deliberate act of sadisim against the innocent and helpless it's pretty hard to beat.

I agree, Dany's act of conquering a city and chosing 163 people at seeming random to cruicify was a deliberate act of sadism against probable innocents and helpless that is among the worst in the series.

because wow

If they sent the innocent to their deaths and spared the guilty that was their decision.

That is exactly what anyone would do in that situation.

[Stanmore]

Ok, before I respond I just wanna ask. YouFail... is that a troll name or what? I don't mind debating trolls i just wanna be clear ;)

Anyway

I'm sorry, but could you clarify? Is she against it? or is she willing to do it? Because what I take from your arguement is that if I ever meet Dany, I should just pester her a lot and I'll get my way, regardless if she is against the idea to begin with or not.

I thought she was intending to rule Mereen.

Where she fails is making sweeping changes without a long term plan, especially an economic plan. "Oh look, I destroyed the basis of their economy, might as well sit around and not provide other means of production or making income, teehee."

Not to mention that when she attempts to plant beens, she effectively uses slaves to do it.

Maybe I mispoke. I should have said she does it unwillingly. It's not the road she wants to take, but she doesn't feel she has any choice. The whole point of her Meereen arc is she's stuck between a rock and a hard place, and she has to make difficult comprimises. She's trying to rebuild the economy, forge new trade links, restructure society and defend from invasion Don't pretend all she does is eat olives and sleep with Daario because that's just not true

Hello repeat of Mereen!!! You propose that if she takes control of a culture that is not only centred on slavery, but its sole basis for existance is slavery, she will magically convert them to not be slavers?

I'm sorry but you can't excuse slavery with "it's jsut their culture" Maybe the people the Dothraki take as slaves have a culture of "not being slaves", ever think of that? It's clear that Meereen won't change it's ways over night, and neither will the wildlings. You don't see people criticizing stannis and Jon for exterminating wildling culture.

I agree, Dany's act of conquering a city and chosing 163 people at seeming random to cruicify was a deliberate act of sadism against probable innocents and helpless that is among the worst in the series.

She didn't chose 163 people at random. She asked the Meereenese to give up 163 of their leaders, and as far as she is aware they

complied. Now we don't know if they did as she asked, but the intent was clear and it's hardly the same as crucifying 163 random people.

Wyman Manderly cooked and ate 3 Frey pies. Were they the people who planned the red wedding or just patsies?

That is exactly what anyone would do in that situation.

A choice between sacrificing the leaders who just lost you a war and sending innocent friends and family members to death with the possiblity that your deception will be uncovered? I'm pretty sure i'd take option A myself.

[Dr. Pepper]

If you see a man getting beaten in the street, is it more merciful to walk on by or to confront his attackers? Likewise would it have been more merciful for Dany to leave the slaves to their fates than to use force to prevent their suffering? In my opinion her conquest was an act of mercy and therefore conquest cannot be a "fundamentally unmerciful proposition" She took the city with minimal causualties, freed the slaves and pardoned the majority of the town leaders, it's hardly unmerciful is it?

As for the 163, what was she supposed to do? 163 innocent children were crucified just to send her a message, it goes far beyond anything Joffrey, the Boltons or the Freys ever did. You watch 163 innocent children die in agony then come back and tell me how you plan to deal with the people responsible for it. Granted she could have done more to make sure the people responisble were punished, but at the end of the day i think seperating the inocent from the guilty would have been practically impossible. She gave the choice of who to execute to the Meereenese, so if they sent her the innocent over the guilty it's hardly her fault.

I'm not sure your beaten man on the street example can compare. If I saw a man being beaten in the street by Joe DressedInJeans who escaped into a crowd, I would do what I could to make sure to identify the correct Joe DressedInJeans to be punished for the crime. I wouldn't go after any ole dude dressed in jeans to punish the one who actually committed the crime. That type of act isn't mercy, it's stupid.

Dany had already freed the slaves. She'd conquered the city and the elite surrendered. She never once asked how those children came to be crucified or who ordered it. True, it might have been nearly impossible to determine it, but she also never determined whether or not the 163 were even part of the group she was thinking to punish. She gave the choice to the nobility for who to kill. Why wouldn't they make the choice to hand Dany a former slave or a poor bloke who just stopped into the city as part of his round-the-world adventure? I can't believe they would just give up members of their own family and closest allies if they had the opportunity to choose their own sacrifices. It's her fault for not taking an hour to question the ones to be crucified and/or not just selecting them herself. She doesn't even explain it. Do the slaves know there were 163 crucified children on the road to Meereen? For all they know, her act might have been so odd foreign ritual she does to appease the gods after she conquers a city.

I'll admit, I might not have been as disturbed about the 163 if Dany had actually punished the slavers. She doesn't seize their property and wealth or dismantle the noble class. She just lets them go to return to their property and treasures where they can simply do as they will so long as they no longer call their servants slaves anymore and so long as they at least pay them with...something. A random group of 163 are dead but the slaves are still basically slaves, they're just starving now.

[Euphail]

Ok, before I respond I just wanna ask. YouFail... is that a troll name or what? I don't mind debating trolls i just wanna be clear

You just want to be clear of what? or are we using names as the basis of ones argument? Bravo if that is the case, because Euphail is definitely the result.

Maybe I mispoke. I should have said she does it unwillingly. It's not the road she wants to take, but she doesn't feel she has any choice. The whole point of her Meereen arc is she's stuck between a rock and a hard place, and she has to make difficult comprimises. She's trying to rebuild the economy, forge new trade links, restructure society and defend from invasion Don't pretend all she does is eat olives and sleep with Daario because that's just not true

Oh my. Leadership is difficult. Who knew. However, actions speak louder than words, and however much she says she is against the slave trade, she is willing to allow the slave trade continue as long as she gets a slice of the cake. The fact that the economy is sliding back into slavery is a symptom of the problem. To be honest, you think a competent leader would, at one point, approach her advisers and say, "okay, I want to end slavery, suggestions?" Nope, she dives right in. The city faced a liquidity crises, and she had no plans to tackle it IF she even knew it was going on. Quentyn's chapters were quite revealing on the subject of Dany's unreliability as a narrator, as his view of Mereen is vastly different from Dany's.

Astapor effectively goes back to slavery as soon as she leaves, and she does nothing to correct the problem she made. Yunkai does the same, and Mereen would be no different the second she leaves. So assuming she does plan to leave at some time, she has effectively done nothing except strip 3 cities of wealth and capital.

I'm sorry but you can't excuse slavery with "it's jsut their culture" Maybe the people the Dothraki take as slaves have a culture of "not being slaves", ever think of that?

No, I'm a troll remember? I don't think.

I'm not excusing slavery by "it's their culture." I'm saying their only economic means of subsistence is dependent on their extortion of the surrounding states, and enslavement of their people. I would also say that if you plan on taking that away, their culture would have to change dramatically. So if Dany's goal is emancipation of slaves, she would have to lay the foundations for a complete restructure of their economy.

For context, as close a parallel as I can think is the restructuring of Britain’s economy of socially owned crown corporations under Margret Thatcher, to competitive capitalism. Or reforming of former communist countries to capitalism, such as Poland. In both cases, reformation takes decades to cement, and in many cases erupts into armed conflict and/or all out civil war. Dany's situation is worse, as the Dothraki have no means of subsistence without the income generated from the slave trade. If they mean to continue a generally nomadic lifestyle, this will result in significant reduction in their numbers, if they plan to permanently populate Vaes Dothrak, they can expect years of economic recession and standards of living, probable civil war, and mass deaths. I know Dany has a detailed plan of how she wants to approach this, but....

So yes, I would maintain that we can expect a repeat of Mereen, but perhaps on a worse scale. Their economy will not reform overnight, and that's the point.

The only alternative I can think of is using the Dothraki as a roaming army to conquer a large chunk of Essos, dwindling their numbers, and using the economies of the captured Essosi cities to support a restructuring of Vaes Dothrak, until they have some comparitive advantage in which to trade. But who knows how martin will write it in. I'm in favor of Apple Martini's thread that points to Dany and the Dothraki as a major foe, not a force for good. The narrative at least supports that notion.

A choice between sacrificing the leaders who just lost you a war and sending innocent friends and family members to death with the possiblity that your deception will be uncovered? I'm pretty sure i'd take option A myself.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I was speaking from the perspective of the average great master in Mereen, an economy and culture built on the exploitation of others. Now, were I in their shoes, and assuming their upbringing and culture, would I

1) Confess and present myself for the crimes, although not illegal at the time and though none (or only few) of the great masters opposed; or

2) Leverage whatever power I have against another family to ensure my survival. Let's say, someone owes me money, or I have lots of money, so I promise to pay someone's family a large sum of money for their sons death. Etc etc etc. Dany enabled the Great Masters to retain their power and influence in the city after her conquering (Mistake 1), of course they're going to use it.

But I am glad that you are so selfless as to present yourself, it breaths new respect for the world into my lungs.

Also, I found it interesting that Dany is okay with other instances of how Great Masters used their property before she conquered, example: rape, forced death in the arena, etc etc etc, but drew the line with the one she had to witness herself. She offered a blanket pardon for the events, but because she SAW one of the acts, that made it unacceptable. For that matter, I doubt crucifixion was uncommon in Mereen. Perhaps not common, though I'm sure Dany investigated that to make sure.

Wyman Manderly cooked and ate 3 Frey pies. Were they the people who planned the red wedding or just patsies?

We're not discussing the Manderly's but, rather Dany. I know it's hard, try not to lose track. But, if you like, would you like to discuss the act of cannibalism, or their direct/indirect involvement in the Red Wedding? Should we discuss the nature of the Westerosi culture of involvement of house politics? For example: how wards will be executed for their parents actions despite not being directly responsible? Because, as with Dany's situation, understanding of context, culture and action is required to discuss them

[Euphail]

Snip.

Dany had already freed the slaves. She'd conquered the city and the elite surrendered. She never once asked how those children came to be crucified or who ordered it. True, it might have been nearly impossible to determine it, but she also never determined whether or not the 163 were even part of the group she was thinking to punish. She gave the choice to the nobility for who to kill. Why wouldn't they make the choice to hand Dany a former slave or a poor bloke who just stopped into the city as part of his round-the-world adventure? I can't believe they would just give up members of their own family and closest allies if they had the opportunity to choose their own sacrifices. It's her fault for not taking an hour to question the ones to be crucified and/or not just selecting them herself. She doesn't even explain it. Do the slaves know there were 163 crucified children on the road to Meereen? For all they know, her act might have been so odd foreign ritual she does to appease the gods after she conquers a city.

I'll admit, I might not have been as disturbed about the 163 if Dany had actually punished the slavers. She doesn't seize their property and wealth or dismantle the noble class. She just lets them go to return to their property and treasures where they can simply do as they will so long as they no longer call their servants slaves anymore and so long as they at least pay them with...something. A random group of 163 are dead but the slaves are still basically slaves, they're just starving now.

I completely agree. I've always thought how Dany first came into the city set the scene for her eventual demise. Any nobles that weren't against her when she first came in (or at least were open to her rule) would be immediately put off by the fact that she kills regardless of guilt, AFTER a blanket pardon and surrender.

Also, the fact that she enabled them to retain control of their wealth was foolish. They had a(n) (assumably) stable economy before she arrived, with stable profits. In comes Dany, economy smashed, but the rich are still rich, and money buys influence. Not with Dany perhaps, but maybe with a starving slave on the street who doesn't like the unsullied walking around.

Again, if I were a Great Master with significant wealth and a vested interest in the slave trade... I would directly fund the sons of the Harpy and the Green Grace.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Also, I found it interesting that Dany is okay with other instances of how Great Masters used their property before she conquered, example: rape, forced death in the arena, etc etc etc, but drew the line with the one she had to witness herself. She offered a blanket pardon for the events, but because she SAW one of the acts, that made it unacceptable. For that matter, I doubt crucifixion was uncommon in Mereen. Perhaps not common, though I'm sure Dany investigated that to make sure.

Sigh.

Dany wasn't okay with any of their acts. Would you have been happier if she'd murdered all the slavers like she did in Astopor? Perhaps you'd like her to put everyone who lived in Astopor, Yuanki, and Mereen on trial for the next 27 years? Or it would have been way better if she went all Vladimir Lenin and invented a new economic system in Slaver's Bay - that would be in keeping with a medieval fantasy.

Medieval setting = medieval justice. She didn't crucify them because she got off on it, she did it because their city murdered children. Collective punishment was accepted and routine in her world.

Mereen was asked to surrender and impaled 163 children instead. They set the "price." Dany went to nobles who had gathered into a pyramid and said they must pay back those 163 deaths with 163 deaths of their own = people in the pyramid. The nobles didn't get a chance to round up random citizens - they chose from among the nobles in the pyramid .

If Robb, Stannis, Tywin, or even Tyrion were in her situation they wouldn't have cared about the slaves whatsoever and would have sacked the city and pillaged it because that's what medieval rulers did. That was justice. To the winner goes the spoils. Dany exercised restraint (remeber she didn't punish Yunkai at all and all that did was make them more defiant). No rapes. No random looting. Pay for the 163 lives with 163 lives.

A few scenes later she goes to the encampment of Astopori freedmen who've been struck with flux and helps bathe an infected an old man to relieve his pain. What a cold-hearted sadist right? I'm sure most of the other contenders for the throne would have taken that risk or even have bothered to see their subject's pain first hand. They also would have shared their foodstocks with starving refugees, right? Or refused to sail away from Mereen because all of their freedman would be re-enslaved?

I doubt it.

Many of Dany's actions have been unwise and her nobles goals have caused some catastrophic damage, but arguing that she has no sense of justice, doesn't sympathize with her people, and isn't taking her job seriously is a pretty extraordinary argument. Everything she's done since Astopor was done to help her people - not her - as we see with her refusing to take Xaro's ships. She can leave at any time but she stays for her people. She marries for her people.

No other contender cares for their people as much as Dany with the possible exception of Jon. Does her empathy pay off? Not always. Often not. But is she really so blameworthy for having empathy?

Attack her decisions not her motives.

[Stanmore]

I'm not sure your beaten man on the street example can compare. If I saw a man being beaten in the street by Joe DressedInJeans who escaped into a crowd, I would do what I could to make sure to identify the correct Joe DressedInJeans to be punished for the crime. I wouldn't go after any ole dude dressed in jeans to punish the one who actually committed the crime. That type of act isn't mercy, it's stupid.

That metaphor was in regards to her campaign as a whole, not to her execution of the 163. I was saying that releasing the slaves was act of mercy even if it lead to the deaths of slavers in the process.

Dany had already freed the slaves. She'd conquered the city and the elite surrendered. She never once asked how those children came to be crucified or who ordered it. True, it might have been nearly impossible to determine it, but she also never determined whether or not the 163 were even part of the group she was thinking to punish. She gave the choice to the nobility for who to kill. Why wouldn't they make the choice to hand Dany a former slave or a poor bloke who just stopped into the city as part of his round-the-world adventure? I can't believe they would just give up members of their own family and closest allies if they had the opportunity to choose their own sacrifices. It's her fault for not taking an hour to question the ones to be crucified and/or not just selecting them herself. She doesn't even explain it. Do the slaves know there were 163 crucified children on the road to Meereen? For all they know, her act might have been so odd foreign ritual she does to appease the gods after she conquers a city.

I'll admit, I might not have been as disturbed about the 163 if Dany had actually punished the slavers. She doesn't seize their property and wealth or dismantle the noble class. She just lets them go to return to their property and treasures where they can simply do as they will so long as they no longer call their servants slaves anymore and so long as they at least pay them with...something. A random group of 163 are dead but the slaves are still basically slaves, they're just starving now.

If the 163 were all innocent free men and former slaves, don't you think somebody would have spoke up about it by now. Dany spends half her time in Meereen dealing with petitions from her citizens. Why have no friends or family members come forward saying you killed my son/daughter/whatever s/he was innocent? Why have none of the shavepates let her know of her error. why has no word at all got back to her?

Likewise why are the sons of the harpies so put out if their uncles/ fathers all avoided execution. If Dany is so easy to deceive why fight the shadow war to begin with? Wouldn't it be easier to let her think she's in charge and then just assassinate her.

I don't deny that the 163 killed were probably not the most powerful of the meereneese masters, but i doubt they were random slaves in fancy clothes.

The killing of the 163 and the freeing of their slaves was the punishment. Like i say, she was trying to be merciful.

[Stanmore]

You just want to be clear of what? or are we using names as the basis of ones argument? Bravo if that is the case, because Euphail is definitely the result.

Just checking. ;) Thought the name was pretty funny, that's all.

Oh my. Leadership is difficult. Who knew. However, actions speak louder than words, and however much she says she is against the slave trade, she is willing to allow the slave trade continue as long as she gets a slice of the cake. The fact that the economy is sliding back into slavery is a symptom of the problem. To be honest, you think a competent leader would, at one point, approach her advisers and say, "okay, I want to end slavery, suggestions?" Nope, she dives right in. The city faced a liquidity crises, and she had no plans to tackle it IF she even knew it was going on. Quentyn's chapters were quite revealing on the subject of Dany's unreliability as a narrator, as his view of Mereen is vastly different from Dany's.

Astapor effectively goes back to slavery as soon as she leaves, and she does nothing to correct the problem she made. Yunkai does the same, and Mereen would be no different the second she leaves. So assuming she does plan to leave at some time, she has effectively done nothing except strip 3 cities of wealth and capital.

I never said Dany was a brilliant leader. She's still young and Meereen is supposed to be a learning experience. She'd be a poor character if she didn't make mistakes. She's probably still a bit too naive for her own good and she trusts the wrong people. She's well meaning but i think she gives some people too much credit. She left Astapor in the hands of a council of elders, but she didn't really do a lot to secure their position. Likewise she assumed the Yunkai would leave her in peace if she went away. Big mistake there. Still, she can't really be blamed for the actions of others.

I'm not excusing slavery by "it's their culture." I'm saying their only economic means of subsistence is dependent on their extortion of the surrounding states, and enslavement of their people. I would also say that if you plan on taking that away, their culture would have to change dramatically. So if Dany's goal is emancipation of slaves, she would have to lay the foundations for a complete restructure of their economy.

For context, as close a parallel as I can think is the restructuring of Britain’s economy of socially owned crown corporations under Margret Thatcher, to competitive capitalism. Or reforming of former communist countries to capitalism, such as Poland. In both cases, reformation takes decades to cement, and in many cases erupts into armed conflict and/or all out civil war. Dany's situation is worse, as the Dothraki have no means of subsistence without the income generated from the slave trade. If they mean to continue a generally nomadic lifestyle, this will result in significant reduction in their numbers, if they plan to permanently populate Vaes Dothrak, they can expect years of economic recession and standards of living, probable civil war, and mass deaths. I know Dany has a detailed plan of how she wants to approach this, but....

So yes, I would maintain that we can expect a repeat of Mereen, but perhaps on a worse scale. Their economy will not reform overnight, and that's the point.

Oh so reforming cultures is hard so we should probably just let the Dothraki rape and pillage and the meereenese profit off other peoples labour. Seriously though, if people are gonna die anyway why not at least try to fix things.

The only alternative I can think of is using the Dothraki as a roaming army to conquer a large chunk of Essos, dwindling their numbers, and using the economies of the captured Essosi cities to support a restructuring of Vaes Dothrak, until they have some comparitive advantage in which to trade. But who knows how martin will write it in. I'm in favor of Apple Martini's thread that points to Dany and the Dothraki as a major foe, not a force for good. The narrative at least supports that notion.

So rather than move the Dothraki towards farming and wipe out their culture, Dany should use them to spread death and destruction across a continent, conquer numereous other civilisations and then forge some sort of golden empire from the remnants. Interesting idea.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I was speaking from the perspective of the average great master in Mereen, an economy and culture built on the exploitation of others. Now, were I in their shoes, and assuming their upbringing and culture, would I

1) Confess and present myself for the crimes, although not illegal at the time and though none (or only few) of the great masters opposed; or

2) Leverage whatever power I have against another family to ensure my survival. Let's say, someone owes me money, or I have lots of money, so I promise to pay someone's family a large sum of money for their sons death. Etc etc etc. Dany enabled the Great Masters to retain their power and influence in the city after her conquering (Mistake 1), of course they're going to use it.

But I am glad that you are so selfless as to present yourself, it breaths new respect for the world into my lungs.

Oh no doubt that sort of thing happend they didn't really have a lot of time for powergames though, and i'm sure other houses were leveraging power the other way. End of the day if some heartless bastard sent his son to die in the place of another man i don't think Dany should get the blame.

Also, I found it interesting that Dany is okay with other instances of how Great Masters used their property before she conquered, example: rape, forced death in the arena, etc etc etc, but drew the line with the one she had to witness herself. She offered a blanket pardon for the events, but because she SAW one of the acts, that made it unacceptable. For that matter, I doubt crucifixion was uncommon in Mereen. Perhaps not common, though I'm sure Dany investigated that to make sure.

She offered a blanket pardon to keep the peace, and because it would be impractical to judge over every last claim of mistreatment. In no way does that mean she condoned what went on before, in the same way that a gun amnesty doesn't mean that the police force in question condones iligal firearms. I think to an extent the 163 deaths were to seve as the penalty for all of the Meereenese crimes.

We're not discussing the Manderly's but, rather Dany. I know it's hard, try not to lose track. But, if you like, would you like to discuss the act of cannibalism, or their direct/indirect involvement in the Red Wedding? Should we discuss the nature of the Westerosi culture of involvement of house politics? For example: how wards will be executed for their parents actions despite not being directly responsible? Because, as with Dany's situation, understanding of context, culture and action is required to discuss them

Just bringing it up as a counterpoint. No need for a side debate, but thanks for the offer :)

[Euphail]

Oh so reforming cultures is hard so we should probably just let the Dothraki rape and pillage and the meereenese profit off other peoples labour. Seriously though, if people are gonna die anyway why not at least try to fix things.

So rather than move the Dothraki towards farming and wipe out their culture, Dany should use them to spread death and destruction across a continent, conquer numereous other civilisations and then forge some sort of golden empire from the remnants. Interesting idea.

I've said in other posts I find the Dothraki a conundrum. You could spend the next 40 years reforming their economy with large scale individual suffering, and there would still be a large likelihood of returning to slavery afterwards. That's why I think it is wholesale unlikely unless Martin just sweeps it under the rug. Overall I think Apple Martini's theories regarding "the stallion that mounts the world" being more a bringer of doom for civilization fits rather well.

In regards to how I think Dany should use them, I was trying to hypothesize a realistic use to end slavery: her supposed goal. Slavery will persist in this region unless:

1) widescale uprising brought about by GDP per capita increases (which brings about general empowerment). Might as well wait for the industrial revolution

2) Someone goes around, conquers the majority of the cities, forcing slavery out, and threatening the remaining cities with the same.

The difficulty I see is the Dothraki are considered a fearsome force within Essos. If they are not included from the beginning with the plan, then they will be a detrament. Again, if you have a wealthy and invested force standing in direct opposition of your plan, what do you think the likely result is? Seeing as most cities in Essos fear the Dothraki, and as they are the most experienced and mobile military force, what should be done? Perhaps she could keep them on as a standing army, but their history of pillaging will need to be curbed. I think that's reasonable, but feel free to disagree. And economic reformation is the only resultant.

In regards to "if people are gonna die anyway why not at least try to fix things." I have not read Dany's chapters in a way that would suggest she thinks like this. This to me seems to be rather forward thinking. The hard rode in Mereen would have been to stand firm on Slaver / the pits, and would have resulted in more deaths in the short term, but a better long term result. Dany doesn't do this because she's not thinking about the long term. Nor is she thinking about the future suffering or deaths. So I don't see her thinking that way with the Dothraki.

I also feel that Dany's chief long-term objective is to reclaim her birthright. This is in direct competition with fixing the slavery issue in Slavers Bay, and the Dothraki. It would take generations to fix the problem, and that's where I have fault with Dany. What she is doing is either against her stated goal and she's naive for not seeing it, or she is direclty harming people for no practical reason.

In my mind, the citizens of slavers bay would have been far better off if she had raided like a dothraki and then left them to their long run equilibrium (previous state), rather than creating long run distortions through short run interference. Some would remain slaves, and never experience freedom, True. Many would still be alive if she had just left, and the end result would generally be the same. UNLESS she conquers all of slavers bay, and the dothraki, and stays there. Or just burns them all.

Overall I see Dany as being too short-sighted, and this causes me to see her acts as ultimately selfish. She may want to help people, but the end result is not help, nor mercy.

[Stanmore]

I think I agree with a lot of that.

A lot of the decisions Dany makes probably are too short sighted. I don't think that makes her selfish though. She's young and inexperienced but she's genuinely trying to do what's best for her people. I think if anything she's a bit too selfless, she's taken on the burdens of too many people, the remnants of her khalasar, her freed slaves, her unsullied, the people of meereen, the people of westeros, her dragons. She wants to help them all, but they all want different things.

Maybe she's got a minor messiah complex, but I don't think she can really be blamed for that. She's been told her whole life that she has the blood of dragons, then the Dothraki raise her up, treat her like a queen and tell her her son is destined to rule the world, then she manages to birth the first 3 dragons in over a century. the people of Qarth seek her out in the desert, her freed slaves call her mother and bow at her feet. Given all that i'd say she's suprisingly level headed. It does all contrast nicely with Jon though, who's been called a bastard his whole life and constantly made to feel inferior.

But yeah, for what ever reasons she's taken the burdens of the masses onto her shoulders, and at some point she's going to have to make some pretty tough decisions if she doesn't want to get crushed. Clearly she'd be better off staying in Meereen and sorting things out for the long haul, but i don't see that being a hit with the fans, and I think GRRM is probably working on some way of whisking her out of there.

How he'll do it, who knows? Maybe she will finaly snap and go screaming towards westeros with a dothraki khalasar at her back ready to rape and pillage. Personally i think it's more likely that she'll be forced out of Meereen and be left with nothing else to do other than claim her birthright or maybe she'll get wind of all the death and descruction in westeros and feel she needs to be their saviour too.

Whatever happens, I don't see much changing for the Dothraki in the long run. Dany's Khalasar might end up settling down in westeros. but I imagine there will still be raiding parties spreading terror across the Dothraki sea long after Dany's dragons have departed the world.

[Dr. Pepper]

If the 163 were all innocent free men and former slaves, don't you think somebody would have spoke up about it by now. Dany spends half her time in Meereen dealing with petitions from her citizens. Why have no friends or family members come forward saying you killed my son/daughter/whatever s/he was innocent? Why have none of the shavepates let her know of her error. why has no word at all got back to her?

The Meereenese could have given up entire slave families or visitors to make the 163. Or they could be keeping those who know hidden or maybe just killed them off. If the noble class gave up 163 who were not of their own, it's reasonable that they would taken pains to make sure the knowledge didn't reach Dany's ears. Furthermore, Dany doesn't speak the language of the slaves. She has to have a lot of what's said translated...when she wants it translated. I went back and re-read her chapters where she holds court (and I admit I might have missed something), but no former slaves are ever admitted to her presence. It's shepards, and merchants, and the former elite. How do we know that some slaves haven't or didn't try to tell that she killed 163 innocent people and they just weren't admitted to her presence? She doesn't keep the door. The ones who keep the door are the Meereenese, and not of the freedmen variety. It was always interesting to me that her Meereenese councilors wanted to kill Hazzea's father to keep him from talking (and he was only heard because he came to the pyramid with his daughter's bones bagged much like the sheep and then lingered when Dany had the others dismissed). Is this their typical pattern? They were also quite content to have the dragons locked up (perhaps one of their goals)

Why would the shavepates speak up? They were part of the old Meereen working class and elite and they've made themselves very available as part of the new Meereen. Half of the Brazen Beasts are shavepates and have nearly open access to the pyramid where Dany resides. How do we know that the shavepates aren't just a former group of elite who didn't have much power before the sack now trying to maneuver their way into power or even that they aren't working for the Harpy? We don't see the dead bodies of the murdered Brazen Beasts who were also shavepates. We do see and hear about the murdered bodies of the Unsullied and shavepates who were former slaves. My theory is that Skahaz recommended the Brazen Beasts where masks in order to identify what group the one under the mask belong to. The freedmen get to choose from a collection while the others choose from another collection of masks.

Likewise why are the sons of the harpies so put out if their uncles/ fathers all avoided execution. If Dany is so easy to deceive why fight the shadow war to begin with?

The reason the sons of the harpy are out for blood is fairly obvious, in my opinion. Dany sacked their city. Devastated their economy. Claimed a throne. All of this is enough for them to want to sow discontent among her ranks in an attempt to push her out of the city. I think they would be out for blood whether or not the 163 were their fathers and uncles.

Wouldn't it be easier to let her think she's in charge and then just assassinate her.

I think there are Meereenese power struggles going on that many want to use Dany for. Two of her dragons are locked up, one is missing and hasn't been seen. She then marries Hizdahr and there were poisoned locusts in her box at the pits. It would have been foolish to attempt an assasination before observing her and her army and doing what they could to remove the dragons from the equation.

I don't deny that the 163 killed were probably not the most powerful of the meereneese masters, but i doubt they were random slaves in fancy clothes.

The killing of the 163 and the freeing of their slaves was the punishment. Like i say, she was trying to be merciful.

As ridiculous as this sounds, I really would have respected Dany's actions more if she had just slaughtered all of the surrendered elite. To me, that would have been merciful. That would have given her a clean slate to truly work from and her quest to free the slaves would have at least been believable instead of a bunch of hot air. There really is nothing merciful about what she did.

I try to use modern comparisons where I can when I'm thinking about these issues. Let's say that there's a very large prison in the middle of nowhere North Korea that has been active for 50 years. People are sent to that prison as children, before they learned anything about how to live on their own and prosper. They don't remember or know where the world exists outside of their prison, even that it exists. The jailers use them as forced labor. The prisoners children remain in the prison as children. Their life is hell, though they do have food, clothing and shelter. Now, I come across this very large prison and I think that I would like to free the prisoners. I attack and I'm successful. I ask the former jailers to give me 50 men as retribution for the number of years the prison was around. This is all done through a translator because I do not speak the language yet. Everyone is dressed alike so I have to trust that the jailers will give me 50 of their own. I can't be sure because I don't ask any questions before I hang them from the wall. I declare the prisoners freedmen. I then take on the former jailers as my advisors and allow them to keep their weapons and secrets. Sons of Kim start burning down the prisoners barracks and attacking them while they walk around. Soon, there is no food and there is no shelter for the former prisoners and still I keep my former jailers as advisors. I hold court and allow the former jailers to be the ones to admit people. No former prisoners come to me. If I know they are starving and I know they have no more shelter, or any way to leave the compound (as I've got former jailers manning the walls), wouldn't it be stupid of me to think that they must still be happy for setting them free? If my freedmen are still disenfranchised prisoners in all but name, then were those 50 random people I hung from the walls an act of mercy or just incredibly stupid in hindsight? How much did I actually help the former prisoners by claiming the prison as my own and keeping the former jailers as my own jailers? And after months, I still don't know who the Sons of Kim are.

I helped not at all. I made things worse. This is what Dany's done. And her first mistake in Meereen was not taking even 30 seconds to question at least one of the 163. The 163 are very important because it tells the Meereenese elite that they've been sacked by a ruler who will not question what they present to her. Everything about the way they interact with her going forward stems from what they learned from this.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

^ That's a really interesting point about the shavepates and the Brazen Beasts possibly working with the Harpy or at least against Dany. They wear masks to hide their identities, but it's not impossible that the masks, as you suggest categorize them amongst each other. One of the obvious ways to know that the Green Grace is the Harpy or knows who it is is the complete lack of info coming from the healing part of the temple. Dany asked for information about people who came in wounded; she never got any and never thought to follow up on it. Same sort of thing could be true about the shavepates, how she only sees the dead if they're Unsullied or ex-slaves.

And the part about her taking what they tell her at face value is so true. So, so true.

[Dr. Pepper]

^ That's a really interesting point about the shavepates and the Brazen Beasts possibly working with the Harpy or at least against Dany. They wear masks to hide their identities, but it's not impossible that the masks, as you suggest categorize them amongst each other. One of the obvious ways to know that the Green Grace is the Harpy or knows who it is is the complete lack of info coming from the healing part of the temple. Dany asked for information about people who came in wounded; she never got any and never thought to follow up on it. Same sort of thing could be true about the shavepates, how she only sees the dead if they're Unsullied or ex-slaves.

And the part about her taking what they tell her at face value is so true. So, so true.

I got this idea when I was rereading The Dragontamer after coming across a weird theory about hwo Quentyn was still alive. The Tattered Prince brings them three masks: a bull, a monkey, and a lion and the password dog which he's assured is the one to use for all guards that night. When they go through the first watch and use the password, the guards have on a rat and a fox mask and they accept it. But at the dragons, the masks are one basilisk and three locusts and these Brazen Beasts do not accept the password. The locusts have me curious as locusts are a delicacy for the nobility and also were used as an assassination attempt.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I got this idea when I was rereading The Dragontamer after coming across a weird theory about hwo Quentyn was still alive. The Tattered Prince brings them three masks: a bull, a monkey, and a lion and the password dog which he's assured is the one to use for all guards that night. When they go through the first watch and use the password, the guards have on a rat and a fox mask and they accept it. But at the dragons, the masks are one basilisk and three locusts and these Brazen Beasts do not accept the password. The locusts have me curious as locusts are a delicacy for the nobility and also were used as an assassination attempt.

Yeah, I've seen the link between the honeyed locusts and the locust masks. It'd be funny if Dany thought the Shavepate was clean and Reznak was dirty and it was the other way around. Hell, maybe all of them are dirty. The Shavepate is also the one constantly on her to kill the hostages — doing so would inflame the city and make the conflict worse. Maybe that's why he wants her to do it.

[Ivy Snow]

I just have to say this, well done Dr. Pepper and Apple Martini. I love your posts. :D...

Also on the OP, I don't like Dany but I'll try to be objective here. I don't think she has a long term plan. Most of the things were already mentioned by Apple Martini, Dr. Pepper, etc.

Dany won't be good for Westeros, imo. She might claim Westeros as her home but they are just as foreign as Mereen is to her. She doesn't know enough about Westeros to be able to rule it well. Yes, she is still young and can learn, but will she listen? Will she want to learn? Barristan especially Jorah tried to give her counsel and tried to teach her a thing or two but she wont listen. Who are they to lecture a dragon anyway? ( rolls eyes)

If she continues to have that arrogance because of the name she that she carries and wont try to humble herself, she will be disliked by people, she won't be a good Queen. Not to mention she has no long term plat at all.

Anyway, I don't think Westerosi people would be glad to see human eating dragons flying about.

[Ivy Snow]

Also, regarding the Robb hate. There are people who hate Robb because of the decisions he has made. There aren't as much though, I don't know maybe because he's already dead and there isn't much about him anymore. His story already ended. We don't have enough to argue about him anymore since he's already dead. He doesn't make any other stupid mistakes anymore so there are lesser reasons for people to hate him more and more.

On the other hand, Dany makes mistakes over and over again that's why people here turn from Dany lovers to Dany haters. I don't hate hate Dany, but I don't like her anymore. I used to root for her, heck I even tried to draw dragons due to my respect towards her. But after I saw her arrogance and how she's just a nicer version of her brother, Viserys, I started to dislike her.

Of course, I do not dismiss the fact that she tried to do well as a Queen, but she failed. I am sure her heart is in the right place but sometimes good intentions can be harmful.

Also I have to mention what one poster said here ( sorry I don't remember who was it who said this), but how she didn't see her own hypocrisy , when a woman asked for her helped after others had taken her house from her when she left and how she wants it back because it's rightfully hers. She said she lost her right when she left it. I don't understand how she, an intelligent woman, didn't see the parallels of that woman's situation with hers?

[Lummel]

I think this question of knowing Westeros is an interesting one and relates to the idea of what qualities and skills are required to be a good ruler.

The higher nobles and those from the royal family live in an executive bubble. Much of daily life is alien to them. How well do they know Westeros? If they only know the concerns of the powerful won't they only govern in the interests of and in response to the interests of the powerful? There's a contrast made by Varys between people like that and his Aegon, brought up with smallfolk, can wash his own clothes etc. And beyond that in the distance is the dusty figure of Egg, riding round his future kingdom as a squire to a hedge knight.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh my. Leadership is difficult. Who knew. However, actions speak louder than words, and however much she says she is against the slave trade, she is willing to allow the slave trade continue as long as she gets a slice of the cake. The fact that the economy is sliding back into slavery is a symptom of the problem. To be honest, you think a competent leader would, at one point, approach her advisers and say, "okay, I want to end slavery, suggestions?" Nope, she dives right in. The city faced a liquidity crises, and she had no plans to tackle it IF she even knew it was going on. Quentyn's chapters were quite revealing on the subject of Dany's unreliability as a narrator, as his view of Mereen is vastly different from Dany's.

But that is the point. Dany is an idealist, she has no schooling in ruling. She tries, and fails and hates herself for failing. All her Meereen chapters are full of her misery because step by step, things are going the wrong way and she feels powerless.

I don't think Dany is necessarily unrealiable as a narrator, but that she's limited by her role and by being closeted away. That's not all her fault though. And her advisors. Who do you suggest she turn to? Ser Barristan? Missandei? The Shavepate? She isn't really spoilt for choice.

[Giovanna Neve]

Also I have to mention what one poster said here ( sorry I don't remember who was it who said this), but how she didn't see her own hypocrisy , when a woman asked for her helped after others had taken her house from her when she left and how she wants it back because it's rightfully hers. She said she lost her right when she left it. I don't understand how she, an intelligent woman, didn't see the parallels of that woman's situation with hers?

One thing I noticed reading Dany and Sansa's chapters :

I think Sansa is a good observer. She watches the reality and she applies the informations to improve reasoning skills.

Dany seems to live in another reality to me. She's not stupid, she can be smart, but sometimes she makes me think if is able to see what is in front of her. Her arrogance doesn't help. To corner her in a conversation is easy.