THE BASTARD'S LETTER

[Myk Lonmouth]

If Ramsay is the author, did he just forget that his wife isn't really Arya Stark? After all he also wanted his reek back, and I really wonder what the readers at the Wall thought of that.

The letter is to Jon Snow (Bastard) not to the Night's Watch. There wouldn't be readers. It's a letter to one man, the man in charge. Also in the letter Ramsay only says "my bride." Not "your sister" or "Arya."

[hotweaselsoup]

I always wondered why the author of the letter would assume that Arya would go to the Wall if he is aware that Arya is fake. I could see the real Arya trying to reach the Wall, after all, her brother is at the Wall and presumably in a position to keep her safe. But why would "Arya" Jeyne Poole go to the Wall? What would she hope to find there?

If Ramsay is the author, did he just forget that his wife isn't really Arya Stark? After all he also wanted his reek back, and I really wonder what the readers at the Wall thought of that.

I believe that it is possible that Ramsay or Roose added the part about Arya because people who don't know that Arya is fake would expect them to contact Arya's brother. The Boltons don't really need the Arya subsitute anymore, just as Ramsay no longer needed Lady Hornwood after they got married. As long as "Arya" is alive / present, there is a chance that somebody will expose their scheme. They may not need "Arya" but they certainly need to keep up the pretence that Arya Stark ran away from her husband Ramsay Bolton. (Especially if Jeyne Poole shows up again.)

The entire letter might just be an attempt to strengthen the illusion that Ramsay married the real Arya Stark.

It's also passing strange that the author of the letter seems to assume that Reek - aka Theon Turncloak, sacker of Winterfell, murderer of Bran and Rickon - would make his way to the Wall and offer himself up to Jon Snow. Actually, this is perhaps an argument that Ramsay (or Roose) is the author, because only these two know that Bran and Rickon were not killed by Theon, and that it was Dreadfort men, not the ironborn, that sacked Winterfell. They might have penned the letter to get Jon to bolt off the Wall before Theon could show up and spill the beans. :dunno:

[redriver]

The letter is to Jon Snow (Bastard) not to the Night's Watch. There wouldn't be readers. It's a letter to one man, the man in charge. Also in the letter Ramsay only says "my bride." Not "your sister" or "Arya."

You can say that despite the fact that the last letter from Ramsay was read out loud and in the presence of Mance(Rattleshirt)?

[Mammothsbane]

You can say that despite the fact that the last letter from Ramsay was read out loud and in the presence of Mance(Rattleshirt)?

Jon didn't read it aloud until someone asked him to.

[bemused]

I don't think the fact that they were possibly going to come under attack would be something anyone would expect him to keep to himself.

Manderly knows the boys are alive ..and therefore , anyone who is allied to him is likely to know ,too .. which opens the door to other possibilities.

[Myk Lonmouth]

You can say that despite the fact that the last letter from Ramsay was read out loud and in the presence of Mance(Rattleshirt)?

In the presence of Mance? Mance isn't at the wall. Are you talking about the previous letter? If so... what?

[Mammothsbane]

I don't think the fact that they were possibly going to come under attack would be something anyone would expect him to keep to himself.

Manderly knows the boys are alive ..and therefore , anyone who is allied to him is likely to know ,too .. which opens the door to other possibilities.

I'd doubt Manderly has told anyone about Rickon (I don't think it's ever mentioned if he knows about Bran too). He doesn't have a reason to. He is strong enough on his own without the possibility of blowing his cover.

In the presence of Mance? Mance isn't at the wall. Are you talking about the previous letter? If so... what?

He's talking about the first letter - the one about the wedding. Jon gets it in the training yard after sparring with ManceShirt. Clydas asks him what's in the letter and he reads it to him.

[Tini]

The letter is to Jon Snow (Bastard) not to the Night's Watch. There wouldn't be readers. It's a letter to one man, the man in charge. Also in the letter Ramsay only says "my bride." Not "your sister" or "Arya."

And you think the fact that it was addressed to Jon means that no one else would read it? (Was it actually addressed to Jon or the Lord Commander? I thought it was addressed to the Bastard. Is Jon the only bastard at the Wall?)

Ramsay could have dictated it to a maester. That maester might spread the word in Winterfell, and that might be exactly what Roose and Ramsay were aiming for. If the letter travels by raven, the maester might have had a chance to read it even if he didn't write it. Was it even sealed properly?

Actually that doesn't even matter if the letter's content was meant for the lords gathered at Winterfell. Ramsay and Roose could just have left it lying around unsealed if they wanted its contents known.

Even at the Wall people might read letters addressed to the Lord Commander. EIther accidentally (like the maester who intercepted Cersei's letter to Jaime), because the Lord Commander is busy and delegated that task (or is otherwise unavailable), or because they just want to know what it says. Do you really believe that Bowen Marsh and the conspirators would not stoop to intercepting letters to the target of their conspiracy? It might contain important information pertaining to their plans!

That Ramsay named the missing girl his bride only means that he didn't lie when he wrote the letter. He did not claim he married Arya, but everybody who reads it will assume it. Including Jon. It does not contradict anything I said.

[Myk Lonmouth]

SON OF A BITCH !!! I just closed this window after typing out a big ass useless reply.

Anyway ^ dude up there. Yes it was addressed to Bastard. That's why I said (Bastard) in the very sentence that I was talking about whom the letter was addressed to. I don't know what it is you're really arguing about however as this thread and it's twin are giving me headaches with all the crackpot posts by people with no profile pics. It makes it difficult to differentiate when you're limited on time.

But regardless off all this madness it's been said that the new ASOIAF app in fact states the letter is from Ramsay. Of course :bang: . Can we move past this crazy talk now? The Pink Letter is one of the best insight into the lunatic Ramsay that we've had to date. To suddenly say in the next book "surprise bitches it was actually written by someone else, haza!!" would be stupid and cheapen the impact it has at the end of Dance.

[wighty]

SON OF A BITCH !!! I just closed this window after typing out a big ass useless reply.

Anyway ^ dude up there. Yes it was addressed to Bastard. That's why I said (Bastard) in the very sentence that I was talking about whom the letter was addressed to. I don't know what it is you're really arguing about however as this thread and it's twin are giving me headaches with all the crackpot posts by people with no profile pics. It makes it difficult to differentiate when you're limited on time.

But regardless off all this madness it's been said that the new ASOIAF app in fact states the letter is from Ramsay. Of course :bang: . Can we move past this crazy talk now? The Pink Letter is one of the best insight into the lunatic Ramsay that we've had to date. To suddenly say in the next book "surprise bitches it was actually written by someone else, haza!!" would be stupid and cheapen the impact it has at the end of Dance.

In your opinion it would.

But thats besides the point. Why would the ASOIAF app list anyone but Ramsey as the author? Cause if thats the case then shouldnt all the R+L+J talk stop since it lists Ned as Jon's father? The app is not going to list anyone but Ramsey as the author cause the story hasn't gotten to the point of knowing anything different yet.

[VaramyrSixchins]

It's also passing strange that the author of the letter seems to assume that Reek - aka Theon Turncloak, sacker of Winterfell, murderer of Bran and Rickon - would make his way to the Wall and offer himself up to Jon Snow. Actually, this is perhaps an argument that Ramsay (or Roose) is the author, because only these two know that Bran and Rickon were not killed by Theon, and that it was Dreadfort men, not the ironborn, that sacked Winterfell. They might have penned the letter to get Jon to bolt off the Wall before Theon could show up and spill the beans. :dunno:

I'm guessing the Boltons were told, as part of the misinformation they were given, that Theon/Arya were sent to the Wall by Stannis after their capture but before the battle. I'm basing this guess on the fact that if Stannis were smashed as the letter said, Theon/Arya surely would've been recovered by the Bolton forces...

[Myk Lonmouth]

Oh G.R.R.M. Why must you make things so intricate and infuriating? Hurry man, hurry! :drool:

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

But regardless off all this madness it's been said that the new ASOIAF app in fact states the letter is from Ramsay. Of course :bang: . Can we move past this crazy talk now?

The app isn't all that conclusive on the question of authorship as Apple Martini's post states:

The Pink Letter and Mance’s capture

Ramsay is named as the letter-writer, but "he claims" is used, leaving an opening for the letter being a lie. As for Mance, the wording is, "Ramsay tells Jon he captured Mance," not, "Ramsay captured Mance."

The app is not phrased in such a way that it precludes the possibility that Ramsay wrote the letter under duress by Mance.

[Sam Huxley]

Ramsay wrote it!! Who knows about Mance? The only other person could be Mel, and what would she benefit from having Jon march on Winterfell with thousands of wildlings with no discipline and no loyalty towards Jon.

[MtnLion]

Ramsay wrote it!! Who knows about Mance? The only other person could be Mel, and what would she benefit from having Jon march on Winterfell with thousands of wildlings with no discipline and no loyalty towards Jon.

I would think that we will find a depth of loyalty to Jon within the wildling community that will overshadow any loyalties we have seen to date.

[Myk Lonmouth]

The app isn't all that conclusive on the question of authorship as Apple Martini's post states:

That entire quote is very conclusive that it was Ramsay. The "he claims" is evident that the content of the letter is indeed lies but in no way should anyone draw from that that it was written by someone other than Ramsay. Nothing at all in that points to it being anyone else.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

It's inconclusive insofar as we don't know the context in which the letter was written, as apple points out. If Ramsay wrote the letter as a proxy for someone else, his authorship is largely irrelevant. Furthermore there is no reason to believe that the app will reveal spoilers such as Jon's parentage, or various cliffhangers at the end of ADwD. It would be pretty anti-climatic to release an app that reveals all of the spoilers of all the key storylines. It's not conclusive on the letter, compared to say Robb's will.

[Myk Lonmouth]

What do you mean we don't know the context in which it was written? He's losing all control of the situation and needs to make something happen, he's grasping at straws. His fake Arya escaped with his thought to be completely obedient and mentally broken slave who knows not only that she isn't who Ramsay is claiming but also that Bran and Rickon are not really dead and that Ramsay himself burned Winterfell down and probably knows that the Boltons were part of the Red Wedding. As the snows continue to fall and fall Stannis is nearing and people are dying mysteriously all around him and distrust is growing. As is the desperation. I mean to me the context of his writing the letter is pretty clear. He's crazy, desperate and extremely pissed off that Jon sent Mance to steal his bride. His sending the letter also outs Jon as having lied (or gone along with the lie) to the Night's Watch and the Wildlings about Mance. He's tauntin Jon to come so he can kill him for what he's tried to do and probably doesn't expect the Watch or anyone else to go along with Jon now that his lie is revealed.

In the app the he in "he claims" is talking about Ramsay. The contents are the only thing questionable. Why would Ramsay write a letter as himself as a proxy for someone else? Where on earth did this idea come from?

Also the content's of Robb's will are in fact spoiled by the app aren't they?

[NotSoSilentSister]

My Pink-Letter-Theory:

It was written by Ramsay under the heavy influence of Mance. Ramsay has captured Mance and is still nominally in charge, but Mance somehow managed to push the right buttons and get under Ramsay's skin. Mance got Ramsay to kill Roose and is partly responsible for the content of the Pink Letter - it was written by Ramsay, but reflects Mance's counsel.

The Case for a Ramsay/Mance-joint-venture:

Ramsay still seems like most likely letter-writer, because among all other proposed candidates (Stannis, Mance, Mel, Alliser Thorne, Jon himself) he's the only one who would care about getting back Reek. Why would a Ramsay impostor inlcude that particular detail? Some people have argued it's included for the sake of verissimilitude, but nobody at the Wall knows about Reek; so the increased authenticity would be wasted on them.

But strategically, the letter doesn't make a lot of sense from the Bolton perspective. Disclosing that fakeArya has escaped only weakens their position; assuming that Jon would just comply with these absurd requirements seems somewhat naive and provoking Jon to come to Winterfell to fight Ramsay doesn't seem like such a smart move either, considering that Stannis is already waiting in front of the doors => I'm pretty sure that Roose Bolton would never have okayed such a letter. So if the letter was indeed written by Ramsay, that must have happened behind Roose's back. Or when Roose is already dead.

But while the letter makes little strategical sense, it makes a lot of emotional sense for Ramsay. It seems impulsive, ill-considered, hysterical, over-compensating, desperate. It sounds very much like a defeated Ramsay grasping for straws.

If someone else feeds him the right ideas, Ramsay might indeed be deluded enough to believe that Jon would just comply with his wishes. Or that he could easily beat Jon and the Nightwatch, because of some kind of magic super-weapon promised by a bad counsellor.

We know that Mance has a way with words and that he can be very persuasive. We know that Ramsay is a walking inferiority complex. The only person he ever developed some kind of twisted attachment to was the original Reek, who gave him ideas about his station. Ramsay seems like someone very susceptible to any kind of story that has him destined for greatness. And Mance is a great story teller. He might tell Ramsay that he is indeed the true Azor Azhai or that he is a changeling from the Others, destined to be the Nightking reborn, etc. - there's certainly no shortage of suitable stories in Mance's repertoire (and maybe he can even fabricate some evidence to back his story up - Mance might have learned a thing or two while working with Mel on the Wall).

So it was Mance's plan to get captured by Ramsay all along in order to manipulate him. If Mance wants to sell a particular story to Ramsay, disclosing himself as Mance, King Beyond the Wall, might give him more authority. He's not just some random singer, he's king of the wildlings, and as such a potentially valueable ally. Maybe he offers Ramsay to betray Jon - "Let him come to Winterfell with a Wildling host - surely they will come to save me - and then reveal me as your ally and the host will be yours" - or something like that (planning to double-cross Ramsay of course). It could very well be part of the plan to reveal himself.

In short: Mance is pulling a Mel on Ramsay - he declares him superhuman, gets him to kill Roose and provoke Jon. I guess the plan is to turn on Ramsay, the moment Jon comes knocking with the Wildling host.

What's in it for Mance? He gets a host of Wildlings marching on Winterfell. Allowing Wildlings to march to Winterfell is kind of a big deal, something the Watch would only allow in the most dire of circumstances (and not even then, as we see when Jon gets assassinated for suggesting it; well worth a try, I guess). The other black brothers at the Wall still want to keep the wildlings contained. But the wildlings know that they need to go further south. The Ramsay-ploy forces Jon's hand. Mance probably did not intend him to get killed in the process though.

And Jon may even be in on it. Much has been made of his remark "There is some truth in it", causing people to speculate that the entire letter was written in a code agreed upon by Jon and Mance. I don't think that applies to the entirety of the letter, but it may well contain some elements desigend to signal to Jon that Mance has indeed accomplished the first stage of the plan and gained influence over Ramsay.

Last but not least, my theory would comply with the wording from the ASOIF-App (Ramsay did write the letter, and he only claims to have captured Mance, because Mance might have approached him of his own free will and is now more a counsellor than a prisoner), and still allow for a little twist.

The Case Against a Ramsay-Mance-Joint-Venture:

Considering that Mance is reponsible for the loss of Reek and fakeArya, he will really need a damn good story to stop Ramsay from flayling him on the spot. Ramay might not be as smart as Roose, but he does have a certain low cunning and it's not quite sure that he would be stupid enough to fall for something like that - especially considering that he himself has pulled basically the same trick on Theon.

Which is why it would be so delicious, delicous irony, if he now got to taste his own medicine. So basically my entire theory is based on wishful-thinking, because I just can't conceive of a more satisfying come-uppance for Ramsay than being ramsayed and reekified by Mance.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

i think we can all agree that Ramsay wrote the letter, given its vernacular,

whats true is that he caught mance rayder. We know for a fact that theon and jeyne made it over the walls of winterfell and eventually reached stannis on the frozen lake in the wolfswood,

so, knowing this, it is safe to assume that ramsay rounded up the rest of mance's spearwives (and mance himself) and it might even be safe to say that during mance's torturing that the ruby on his wrist that melissandre put there to glamour mance into the lord of bones was possibly removed, revealing him as the king-beyond-the-wall.

So when the letter says that the remaining spearwives have been flayed, and mance is wearing their skins in a cage on the walls of winterfell, that much i think we can all agree is true.

And the "smashing" of stannis's army beneath the walls of winterfell, well we know at least the umber and his men made it down there from the last hearth, thats probably the army that was smashed, the old men and green boys,

but with no stannis in sight and now a missing bride, i think ramsay's letter to jon is a balk to force him to give up stannis's court at the wall (melissandre, queen selyse, etc.)

ramsay knows he needs the fake arya to keep the support of the northern lords, and he probably figures that stannis is dead, frozen in the wolfswood somewhere,

so the letter is all about forcing jon's hand one way or another,

at least, that's what i've concluded after my ice and fire series re-read, more thoughts my fellow GRRM readers and enthusiasts????