Manderly's Navy and Heavy Horse

[DirtyRobes]

Any other time I would agree with you but not in this case. Rickon's future behavior will be shaped by his experiences at four. He is angry and bitter. He doesn't have anyone taming him so to speak. He is not getting educated. He doesn't have a maester. There is also to consider his warging ability. We know that if you don't control your warg it controls you. He doesn't have anyone teaching him to control his wolf. The more time passes without rickon getting adult supervision the more his wildness will become nature. I don't think rickon will ever be tamed. And that is an interesting notion.

True true... but he does have Osha, so he has Some adult supervision. I expect Rickon will return very wild and very connected to Shaggy. Bran is more powerful but Rickon may very well have a closer bond with Shaggy as he was so young when he left and had only Osha to spend non-warging time with. But I expect Skagos will turn out to be the surprise, while they don't have a maseter, there are acknowledged vassals of the Starks on the island(known to keep their own rule).

Known cannibal island with an unpleasant history and rebellion against the Starks. Sounds like a place that's possibly Worse than the Iron Islands(imagine That) and a similar history of rebellion. Seven Hells I Expect Some God Damn Northern Loyalty in WoW!!!

I think it a terrible idea for a noble Stark like Ned to set foot on Skagos, but would they have the same feelings towards a Wild Boy with an obvious connection to his Giant Black Direwolf? I think the Skagosi will take One look at RickShagg and(if not rally behind him) raise him one of their own.

I'm also skeptical of the cannibalism(or at least its frequency) on Skagos.

[DirtyRobes]

It should also be noted that outside of Manderly's hidden forces that he has mentioned, he is also in control of All lands east of the White Knife's mouth and south of the Dreadfort. That includes House Locke and the Flints of Widows Watch, both of whom lost family during the RW.

[The Snowman]

Manderly seems like a pretty smart and savvy person. So if he wanted to take a swing at the boltons and freys who seem a bit stretched especially in the north, then its likely to be in one 'kinghit'. He seems pretty content with pissing off the boltons and freys while he has troops, resources and probably a shitload of surprise on his side.

If he has Rickon then the North is about to get very interesting, also if he does have Rickon and Sansa does reveal herself and LF's plan goes off without a hitch then the Falcon and Direwolf would be united. Have to agree with someone a little back that if the GreatJon gets out and reunites with friendly northern forces shit will go down.

Anyway back on topic, with Manderly's forces waiting for the go and if Stannis' forces are intact enough to lay siege to Winterfell then It wont be long before the North is back under the control of the 'good guys' (well Stannis is mostly good...kinda) Then it'll be about taking stock you would think and cementing the North back as a big power whether it be against the South(Freys, Lannisters, Tyrells(although the tyrells arent too bad) or north of the wall where the Great Other resides.

[David C. Hunter]

Regardless of his self interests for his house advancing, his number one goal for doing this is revenge and his second overall goal is to return a stark to Winterfell because of what the Starks have done for them and because putting a Stark on the throne is the quickest way to unifying the North again. Its just smart thinking. Its obvious. Yes Manderly would be a fool not to have ambitions for his house, but it is NOT his main goal for doing this.

[Darth Rivers]

Regardless of his self interests for his house advancing, his number one goal for doing this is revenge and his second overall goal is to return a stark to Winterfell because of what the Starks have done for them and because putting a Stark on the throne is the quickest way to unifying the North again. Its just smart thinking. Its obvious. Yes Manderly would be a fool not to have ambitions for his house, but it is NOT his main goal for doing this.

If it is so obvious, you will no doubt find no difficulty finding that in the text.

Look. The primary goal of any noble patriarch is to secure the survival of his house. It was such a basic thing that it can be seen as self interest, same way as protecting one's children is self interest - the basic instinct of any individual is to ensure the survival of their own genes. Aiding the Starks is going to elevate the Manderlies to the highest position in the North. It will ensure that in the future, the Starks will be both genetically tied to them, but also quite reliant on them politically if Wyman does everything right. So no need to get overly sentimental.

This isn't a book for 15 year old girls. The cynical explanation is more likely to be true than the romantic explanation. Why? You don't become a powerful by being romantic.

[The Snowman]

Aiding the Starks is going to elevate the Manderlies to the highest position in the North. It will ensure that in the future, the Starks will be both genetically tied to them, but also quite reliant on them politically if Wyman does everything right. So no need to get overly sentimental.

So im just curious, Robb Stark took 18000 men south with on pretty short notice, now with those losses and that of the Boltons(if they destroyed) what would be the fighting strength of the North if they were unified under the banner of the Starks? The Lannisters could muster around 70-80 thousand by the end of the war. The Storm Lands had around 40-50 and the Tyrells had likely 60 thousand.

Im just putting this out there because if Robb held back all these ships and men up north in White Harbour, how many men could the North still hold in reserve for future conflicts. I also say this as well because the North was never conquered until it was attacked unaware's by the greyjoys and betrayed by the Boltons and the Freys, so my point was that they must have had a pretty awesome army to repel all those invasions prior to Aegon's Conquest.

[DirtyRobes]

So im just curious, Robb Stark took 18000 men south with on pretty short notice, now with those losses and that of the Boltons(if they destroyed) what would be the fighting strength of the North if they were unified under the banner of the Starks? The Lannisters could muster around 70-80 thousand by the end of the war. The Storm Lands had around 40-50 and the Tyrells had likely 60 thousand.

That's a commonly asked question and pretty difficult to answer but many on these forums have some reasonable estimates. I think its pretty common knowledge that if Robb did have more time to gather forces his army would be significantly larger, some speculate as many as another 20,000 men.

With the North being Soo very vast it would take a Long time to gather everyone + many parts of the north ppl don't live in castles or use ravens. The Mountin clans would likely have sent more troops with the son of the Ned than Stannis.

The Mandely's have been amassing men, building ships and securing land below the Dreadfort.

It's also a possibility than Skagos sends men in support of Rickon. Unknown numbers??

It's also very likely that the Wildlings will fight for Jon(or to avenge Jon). Not sure what the last head count was, but I'm pretty sure there's still more coming.

Lady Dustin has also admitted to sending as few troops as possible with Robb. So depending on where you think her loyalties lie, she likely has plenty of men to contribute.

So All in its really hard to say Just how many men the North will gather under the Direwolf. But my guess is many more than Robb ever had!!

Im just putting this out there because if Robb held back all these ships and men up north in White Harbour, how many men could the North still hold in reserve for future conflicts. I also say this as well because the North was never conquered until it was attacked unaware's by the greyjoys and betrayed by the Boltons and the Freys, so my point was that they must have had a pretty awesome army to repel all those invasions prior to Aegon's Conquest.

Well the North is a Great place to defend from, using the twins and the neck to bottle troops it would take at least tens of thousands of men simply to enter it. Once your in you have to deal with vast land and Winter. Your army could be a fraction of your enemies size and still defend the north, but dragons are cheating. Once the Starks saw what they were up against they did what was best for their people, not send men to die and instead bend the knee.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So im just curious, Robb Stark took 18000 men south with on pretty short notice, now with those losses and that of the Boltons(if they destroyed) what would be the fighting strength of the North if they were unified under the banner of the Starks? The Lannisters could muster around 70-80 thousand by the end of the war. The Storm Lands had around 40-50 and the Tyrells had likely 60 thousand.

Im just putting this out there because if Robb held back all these ships and men up north in White Harbour, how many men could the North still hold in reserve for future conflicts. I also say this as well because the North was never conquered until it was attacked unaware's by the greyjoys and betrayed by the Boltons and the Freys, so my point was that they must have had a pretty awesome army to repel all those invasions prior to Aegon's Conquest.

The North could field at least another 35,000 men. The Lannisters could field only 50,000-60,000 men at the start of the war and most of those are dead, crippled or deserted. They are probably at 15,000-20,000 left. The Tyrells have still most of their 70,000-100,000 left.

[AegonTheUnlikely]

Look. The primary goal of any noble patriarch is to secure the survival of his house. It was such a basic thing that it can be seen as self interest, same way as protecting one's children is self interest - the basic instinct of any individual is to ensure the survival of their own genes. Aiding the Starks is going to elevate the Manderlies to the highest position in the North. It will ensure that in the future, the Starks will be both genetically tied to them, but also quite reliant on them politically if Wyman does everything right. So no need to get overly sentimental.

This. As the head of the family, House Manderly's interests ARE Wyman's interest. Pursuing those interests is pursuing his own. I tend to agree that the cynical explanation holds true in this case. If Manderly were the sort of honor driven person that Ned was, you might say he was acting for honor's sake. The mountain clans seem to want revenge on Ramsay, and to save "The Ned's" little girl, more than anything else. Manderly is playing a longer game, and to me it look like he's winning.

[Stag's Fury]

Assuming Stannis survived and Manderly didn't waste his navy and heavy cavalry in the North...

This actually would make Stannis the strongest military force once again?

Sellswords hired with the gold from the Iron Bank

Manderly's navy / horses

Most of the surviving northern lords (I'd assume that they would proclaim Rickon as their liege lord but the north as a whole will bend their knee to Stannis?)

The KL's faction has practically no navy since Aurane Waters took all the fancy new ships.

Primary army forces they've got are the Lannisters/Freys around Riverrun and the Tyrell forces at King's Landing, but considering the conflict between the two houses god knows how things will turn out when shit hits the fan.

Aegon, basically all he got is the Golden Company and possibly Dorne.

The only real opponents that can be troublesome would be Dany. Unsullied, Dothraki, Victarion's navy.

[Free Northman]

Assuming Stannis survived and Manderly didn't waste his navy and heavy cavalry in the North...

This actually would make Stannis the strongest military force once again?

Sellswords hired with the gold from the Iron Bank

Manderly's navy / horses

Most of the surviving northern lords (I'd assume that they would proclaim Rickon as their liege lord but the north as a whole will bend their knee to Stannis?)

The KL's faction has practically no navy since Aurane Waters took all the fancy new ships.

Primary army forces they've got are the Lannisters/Freys around Riverrun and the Tyrell forces at King's Landing, but considering the conflict between the two houses god knows how things will turn out when shit hits the fan.

Aegon, basically all he got is the Golden Company and possibly Dorne.

The only real opponents that can be troublesome would be Dany. Unsullied, Dothraki, Victarion's navy.

The North is about to go into lockdown for a severe Winter. The Others are on their doorstep and things are about to get real ugly up at the Wall.

Stannis is deluding himself if he thinks a united North is going to send all of its remaining men on a campaign south of the Neck to try and put him back on the Iron Throne.

The North has had enough of southern machinations - in fact, they've seen what happens to them when they meddle in the South. They ain't going anywhere past the Neck until after Winter.

Stannis either has to hang around in the North, and let the South go on without him, or he has to head south with his sellswords and leave the Northmen to deal with the Others.

Either way, the Northmen aren't going to help him win the Iron Throne back, no matter what he does.

[Stag's Fury]

The North is about to go into lockdown for a severe Winter. The Others are on their doorstep and things are about to get real ugly up at the Wall.

Stannis is deluding himself if he thinks a united North is going to send all of its remaining men on a campaign south of the Neck to try and put him back on the Iron Throne.

The North has had enough of southern machinations - in fact, they've seen what happens to them when they meddle in the South. They ain't going anywhere past the Neck until after Winter.

Stannis either has to hang around in the North, and let the South go on without him, or he has to head south with his sellswords and leave the Northmen to deal with the Others.

Either way, the Northmen aren't going to help him win the Iron Throne back, no matter what he does.

I was just considering the Seven Kingdoms under normal circumstances :P

If( well, when) the Others come, I'm sure Stannis won't head south anyway.

As Stannis told Jon, Davos reminded him of his duty and defending the Realm from the Others is most certainly the duty of the rightful king of Westeros!

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Assuming Stannis survived and Manderly didn't waste his navy and heavy cavalry in the North...

This actually would make Stannis the strongest military force once again?

Sellswords hired with the gold from the Iron Bank

Manderly's navy / horses

Most of the surviving northern lords (I'd assume that they would proclaim Rickon as their liege lord but the north as a whole will bend their knee to Stannis?)

The KL's faction has practically no navy since Aurane Waters took all the fancy new ships.

Primary army forces they've got are the Lannisters/Freys around Riverrun and the Tyrell forces at King's Landing, but considering the conflict between the two houses god knows how things will turn out when shit hits the fan.

Aegon, basically all he got is the Golden Company and possibly Dorne.

The only real opponents that can be troublesome would be Dany. Unsullied, Dothraki, Victarion's navy.

No, even the North at full strength before the war had way less than the Tyrells, Some sellswords will get him even with the Tyrells alone at best. Free Northman said the rest.

[Free Northman]

If I was the next Lord of Winterfell I would move to developing Westeros's first standing army. It can be a moderately sized force of say 5000 mounted horse, but I would start drilling them until they are a professional army.

The upkeep of these soldiers could be part of the feudal taxes his bannermen pay to Winterfell.

I reckon a professional, mobile army of 5000 that is highly mobile, yet heavily armed, is worth 5 times that number on the field of battle. Especially if you can attack the Twins with it in one month, and strike the Wall or the Stony shore with it 30 days later.

Start putting your people to good use, instead of lazing away during summer, waiting for the next threat before you call a bunch of peasants with pitchforks to battle.

I'd call this mobile strike force the Iron Wolves, and they could become the most feared force in Westeros.

You would not have to support them on a permanent basis. Instead, they can be called together once each year after the harvest for training exercises and for short campaigns against wildlings or troublesome neighbours or whatever. The point is, they will be like a conscripted professional army, used to fighting together, always maintained at 5000 men, and ready to assemble and attack with deadly precision with a few weeks notice.

If a major war breaks out, the entire North can still be assembled as it is at the moment, but the Iron Wolves would then form the core of the army, making it vastly more effective.

I would also make it compulsory for one male from each family to have to be a proficient longbowman, and instruct my lords to assemble their regiment of bowman once a year for a compulsory "bowmanship camp, to hone their skills on a permanent basis.

This would ensure that whenever a larger army needs to be called up, you have 10,000 bowmen who are immediately professionally equipped and ready to be used highly effectively in a war situation.

Basically, given the Westerosi environment, I would place my Kingdom on a permanent war-ready status.

The training of bowmen and pikemen etc. on an annual basis need not be majorly expensive, as it would take place after the harvest is in, and merely serve to keep a large number of men semi-trained for war.

And the Iron Wolves assembling for one month a year as professional mounted cavalry would be well worth the investment of food and resources, when war breaks out.

I just feel that given the state of permanent war in Westeros, not nearly enough is invested in maintaining the forces of a kingdom like the North in peacetime.

Maybe Rickon Stark will sort this out, like Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf probably did a few thousand years ago.

[E-Ro]

If I was the next Lord of Winterfell I would move to developing Westeros's first standing army. It can be a moderately sized force of say 5000 mounted horse, but I would start drilling them until they are a professional army.

The upkeep of these soldiers could be part of the feudal taxes his bannermen pay to Winterfell.

I reckon a professional, mobile army of 5000 that is highly mobile, yet heavily armed, is worth 5 times that number on the field of battle. Especially if you can attack the Twins with it in one month, and strike the Wall or the Stony shore with it 30 days later.

Start putting your people to good use, instead of lazing away during summer, waiting for the next threat before you call a bunch of peasants with pitchforks to battle.

I'd call this mobile strike force the Iron Wolves, and they could become the most feared force in Westeros.

You would not have to support them on a permanent basis. Instead, they can be called together once each year after the harvest for training exercises and for short campaigns against wildlings or troublesome neighbours or whatever. The point is, they will be like a conscripted professional army, used to fighting together, always maintained at 5000 men, and ready to assemble and attack with deadly precision with a few weeks notice.

If a major war breaks out, the entire North can still be assembled as it is at the moment, but the Iron Wolves would then form the core of the army, making it vastly more effective.

I would also make it compulsory for one male from each family to have to be a proficient longbowman, and instruct my lords to assemble their regiment of bowman once a year for a compulsory "bowmanship camp, to hone their skills on a permanent basis.

This would ensure that whenever a larger army needs to be called up, you have 10,000 bowmen who are immediately professionally equipped and ready to be used highly effectively in a war situation.

Basically, given the Westerosi environment, I would place my Kingdom on a permanent war-ready status.

The training of bowmen and pikemen etc. on an annual basis need not be majorly expensive, as it would take place after the harvest is in, and merely serve to keep a large number of men semi-trained for war.

And the Iron Wolves assembling for one month a year as professional mounted cavalry would be well worth the investment of food and resources, when war breaks out.

I just feel that given the state of permanent war in Westeros, not nearly enough is invested in maintaining the forces of a kingdom like the North in peacetime.

Maybe Rickon Stark will sort this out, like Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf probably did a few thousand years ago.

The Knights/sworn swords and men-at-arms of westeros are already pretty profesional. The only reason they are not a standing army is because their pay comes from their lord not the state. If the lords of westeros conscripted all the healthy men the armies would be huge. Armies in medieval europe were not masses of peasents wielding pitchforks.

[Free Northman]

The Knights/sworn swords and men-at-arms of westeros are already pretty profesional. The only reason they are not a standing army is because their pay comes from their lord not the state. If the lords of westeros conscripted all the healthy men the armies would be huge. Armies in medieval europe were not masses of peasents wielding pitchforks.

Conscripting all the healthy men is impossible. But drafting one healthy male from each family to a training camp for one month a year after harvest time is quite achievable, and would result in a far more disciplined force than the unprepared peasants called up at short notice at the moment.

[E-Ro]

Conscripting all the healthy men is impossible. But drafting one healthy male from each family to a training camp for one month a year after harvest time is quite achievable, and would result in a far more disciplined force than the unprepared peasants called up at short notice at the moment.

The armies of westeros are not undisciplined though, what you propose would be ideal but no one can afford to equip such a force. that is why there are no standing armies. it is cheaper for a knight to round up a few freinds train them and equip them and when his lord needs him show up with them, historically that is how things were done. There is a misconception that medieval armies were rabble, they were not.(see tywins army in got tyrions chapter)

[Free Northman]

The armies of westeros are not undisciplined though, what you propose would be ideal but no one can afford to equip such a force. that is why there are no standing armies. it is cheaper for a knight to round up a few freinds train them and equip them and when his lord needs him show up with them, historically that is how things were done. There is a misconception that medieval armies were rabble, they were not.(see tywins army in got tyrions chapter)

There's a quote from Martin that Tywin Lannister maintained his levies at a much higher level of discipline than the normal Westerosi lords do. Meaning that he obviously invested more resources in keeping them fairly well trained even in times of peace.

I'm proposing that the North do something similar. After all. If lord Manderly can build 50 warships in a year and a half, then surely the entire North can afford a short annual training camp each year, assembling men at the keep of each of the primary bannermen, to keep their levies on a decent level of training.

[E-Ro]

There's a quote from Martin that Tywin Lannister maintained his levies at a much higher level of discipline than the normal Westerosi lords do. Meaning that he obviously invested more resources in keeping them fairly well trained even in times of peace.

Oh ok I didnt know that, its pretty much the only in depth look we get at an army in the whole series. So the lannister troops are of higher quality then the other kingdoms? Im not doubting you but if you could find the quote so I could read it for myself i would appreciate it. Makes sense though, infinite amounts of gold does mean better equiped troops. I still maintain that all armies in westeros are composed of trained well equiped men maybe not as well equiped as lannister men but definitly no pitchforks. lol I hate pitchforks in case you couldnt tell.

[Jedi Master Hot Pie]

There's a quote from Martin that Tywin Lannister maintained his levies at a much higher level of discipline than the normal Westerosi lords do. Meaning that he obviously invested more resources in keeping them fairly well trained even in times of peace.

Oh ok I didnt know that, its pretty much the only in depth look we get at an army in the whole series. So the lannister troops are of higher quality then the other kingdoms? Im not doubting you but if you could find the quote so I could read it for myself i would appreciate it. Makes sense though, infinite amounts of gold does mean better equiped troops. I still maintain that all armies in westeros are composed of trained well equiped men maybe not as well equiped as lannister men but definitly no pitchforks. lol I hate pitchforks in case you couldnt tell.

They wouldn't be using pitchforks.

But they were probably using pitchforks before they joined the army and picked up a sword or a spear.