Why do people hate Dany?

[Lord Ben]

So you have the power of forsight do you? You know the ultimate outcome of every decision you make?

More strawmen. Stick to the topic.

[Stanmore]

I fail to see why performing open heart surgery on your mother because she has cancer is something I should be vilified for,I want to see how you react to the situation when it's actual people you know and not a faceless throng. For that matter, I fail to see why any practitioner should ever be vilified for providing terrible care that just makes the victim worse, because they all tried to fix things, even if they were miserably out of their depth.

Your argument only works if the people of Slaver's Bay can be seen as chess pieces or XP points that you get for trying regardless of how well you did. I personally find it abhorrent to risk the lives of people when you don't have as close to a guarantee as you can get that you won't cause a net gain in suffering. Despite Martin's writing these are people, not practice pieces, their deaths matter. If you can't think through ways of minimizing that, stay at home. If you don't have the courage to do everything, even face your dragons to stop that, you might as well pack up and leave.

She didn't free them because she wanted practice citizens, she freed them because they were suffering. She tried to set them up with proper government in Astapor and she tried to rule them justly in Meereen. She had her advisers but all they wanted to tell her was "leave this place. go back to Westeros" What else was she supposed to do? Abandon them to their suffering?

[Castel]

No there are people starving because the good citizens of Astapor chose to start a war with Yunkai instead of farming or trading or doing anything productive. Dany was in the process of forging trade routes and planting beans before the Yunkai turned their sights on Meereen it's not like she ignored the idea of rebuilding the economy or anything.

Except this takes months, especially when you have to worry about your citizens getting fed first. You need to plant a ton to have any left over for trade anyway. And I doubt that beans would be the central part of any economy over there. To trade she needs to have something others want, the area had olives and slaves. One is no longer useful, the other won't be until long after they starve to death. At best she can seize the wealth of the nobility and trade it, but this, like seizing jewish property, is not a long term fix.

To become a trade hub again she needs to establish some sort of difference here, something that will make people want to come all the way to Meereen, I'm drawing a blank on what that could be. Not to mention that this takes years, for ships to go home and spread the word and come back and have a good experience etc... Oh,yeah, and for everyone not to hate her.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So Blame Selmy or Jorah or any of the other people who could have made that clear to her. Did they tell her the flaws in her plan? No they just told her to forget the slaves and head back to Westeros. They didn't bother to explain the realities of the situatio. No its just " get back to Westeros where you belong" is it any wonder she didn't listen?

Dany has made it pretty abundantly clear that she won't listen to any advice that she doesn't already agree with. Both of them also swore oaths of fealty to her for some ungodly reason, so even if they had told her she was mistaken, she was under no obligation to listen to them.

Sorry, but blaming Selmy and Jorah is ridiculous. And they were RIGHT to tell her to get back to Westeros, which I suspect now she's finally figuring out, hallucinating and seeing Jorah in the Dothraki Sea. Too bad it came after she destroyed thousands and thousands of lives.

No there are people starving because the good citizens of Astapor chose to start a war with Yunkai instead of farming or trading or doing anything productive. Dany was in the process of forging trade routes and planting beans before the Yunkai turned their sights on Meereen it's not like she ignored the idea of rebuilding the economy or anything.

Dany made the bed in Astapor and she has to lie in it. What happened there is her fault. You'd give her credit for her silly "council" if it had worked, right? So why doesn't she get the blame when it fails?

The thing about planting crops is that it takes TIME to yield results. It's not like you plant seeds and get a bumper crop overnight. What was she going to do in the interim? Do you think people without money or means to feed themselves are going to survive while the freaking bean seeds germinate?

[Sasha Steelsong]

oh- one more thing. I think the argument of her mistakes being excused by her age negates her successes as being nothing more than good luck. To say that her age explains her mistakes removes her agency and responsibility for making those mistakes. To be consistent, her successes must also be attributable to something other than her own decision-making skills. I like to give her credit where it's due (and I do think there's some pretty interesting aspects to her), and likewise place the blame for the failings directly on her, regardless of age and experience.

I don't necessarily agree with the if this than that part of the post but I do agree she owns both her successes and failures. I think her age mitigates (not excuses - so basically not something as a reader I'm going to hold against her but that window is closing as she ages) some of her mistakes because 13/14 year olds don't always think things though the way an experienced adult would, basic brain chemistry, but that they don't always doesn't equate to they can't, so I don't think saying age plays a large part in her mistakes negates her successess. She was dealing with the fall out of her piss poor choices till Drogon whisked her away, and I feel she will stlil be reeping what she's thus far sown for a good portion of the next book as well.

[Stanmore]

More strawmen. Stick to the topic.

How is that a straw man? People are saying "doing nothing would have been beter". How is Dany supposed to know that the free men of astapor would declare war on Yunkai, or that the pale mare would sweep the region? All she can go on is the information available to her. Weknow how things were going to turn out. She didnt.

[Lord Ben]

How is that a straw man? People are saying "doing nothing would have been beter". How is Dany supposed to know that the free men of astapor would declare war on Yunkai, or that the pale mare would sweep the region? All she can go on is the information available to her. Weknow how things were going to turn out. She didnt.

Do you know what a strawman argument is? It's the very definition of strawman to suggest that that I claim to know the "ultimate outcome of every decision I make" and then refute it.

I don't know much but I know that sacking and burning a city rarely results in their prosperity. Slaves included.

[Stanmore]

Gotta bail out on this now. I'll try and catch up with it tomorow if anyone is still interested in what i've got to say ;)

[summer_stark]

How is that a straw man? People are saying "doing nothing would have been beter". How is Dany supposed to know that the free men of astapor would declare war on Yunkai, or that the pale mare would sweep the region? All she can go on is the information available to her. Weknow how things were going to turn out. She didnt.

the point is that she could have known a lot more than she did, which was virtually nothing. the point is that she didn't bother finding out anything. she used her extensive power of dragons and the unsullied to make rash decisions. and she's not exactly someone who listensshe could have known how deep the slave trade ran in the region if she had stopped for a moment and educated herself. or better yet, could have concentrated on raising her dragons instead of razing cities. and i'm sorry, but what she did to get the unsullied had nothing to do with helping anyone but herself -- not only that but then she killed the guys she betrayed. i didn't want her to give away her dragons either, but just because she didn't agree with how the unsullied were trained she betrayed the guys who made them possible, killed, them, took the unsullied anyway and now use them in her conquests.

[Stanmore]

Do you know what a strawman argument is?

Gah one last post. A straw-man argument is a fake argument a person sets up as coming from the opposition in order to knock down with ease. I'm not sure how that applies to what I’ve posted so far, but I’m sure you'll let me know for tomorrow :D

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

the point is that she could have known a lot more than she did, which was virtually nothing. the point is that she didn't bother finding out anything. she used her extensive power of dragons and the unsullied to make rash decisions. and she's not exactly someone who listensshe could have known how deep the slave trade ran in the region if she had stopped for a moment and educated herself. or better yet, could have concentrated on raising her dragons instead of razing cities. and i'm sorry, but what she did to get the unsullied had nothing to do with helping anyone but herself -- not only that but then she killed the guys she betrayed. i didn't want her to give away her dragons either, but just because she didn't agree with how the unsullied were trained she betrayed the guys who made them possible, killed, them, took the unsullied anyway and now use them in her conquests.

Yes, as awful as the Astapori slave masters were and as harsh as the Unsullied "training" was, how she went about getting them really, really rubbed me the wrong way. I actually loved that scene when I first read it. Then I read it again and saw how stupid it was. Her "genius" plan relied on these guys being incomprehensibly stupid. They wouldn't have a fail-safe or some kind of conditioning so that the Unsullied would never turn on the Astapori? Really? Not buying it. What's to stop someone from buying 2,000 Unsullied and then turning them on Astapor? Having a prime directive of "Never, ever turn on Astapori" is just common sense, but apparently it was too much to ask for those Rhodes Scholars. What came off like a gung-ho moment on a first read felt like a cheap, dishonorable plot gift on a reread. She ensured, in that one, crotch-grabbing moment, that in Slaver's Bay, her word is worth precisely dick. And then she wonders why no one wants to treat with her. Well duh.

[Castel]

Yes, as awful as the Astapori slave masters were and as harsh as the Unsullied "training" was, how she went about getting them really, really rubbed me the wrong way. I actually loved that scene when I first read it. Then I read it again and saw how stupid it was. Her "genius" plan relied on these guys being incomprehensibly stupid. They wouldn't have a fail-safe or some kind of conditioning so that the Unsullied would never turn on the Astapori? Really? Not buying it. What's to stop someone from buying 2,000 Unsullied and then turning them on Astapor? Having a prime directive of "Never, ever turn on Astapori" is just common sense, but apparently it was too much to ask for those Rhodes Scholars. What came off like a gung-ho moment on a first read felt like a cheap, dishonorable plot gift on a reread. She ensured, in that one, crotch-grabbing moment, that in Slaver's Bay, her word is worth precisely dick. And then she wonders why no one wants to treat with her. Well duh.

Well, I'm not surprised that there was no safeguard. People buying slaves don't want them to have secret commands, it would ruin any trust they had gained. On top of that, it would undercut the absolute loyalty part of the equation. And I'm not sure you can train a person to be completely loyal to one person except in one case, there might be...strains.

On top of that it's a clearly unprecedented scenario, no one else could have afforded to buy all the Unsullied, including the young, I would assume that they would have wanted to keep those for future profits, no matter how much they were offered, hell scarcity could increase demand. Anyone buying a single batch could presumably have gone crazy, but he'd have had to deal with the other Unsullied, as well as all the other slave soldiers in the city.

[TheRaggedWildling]

Gah one last post. A straw-man argument is a fake argument a person sets up as coming from the opposition in order to knock down with ease. I'm not sure how that applies to what I’ve posted so far, but I’m sure you'll let me know for tomorrow :D

Nope. That is a sockpuppet. A strawman is a manufactured talking point that cannot be possibly defended by any means necessary without the defender coming off as wrong and a doushe. Example: You don't like Dany? You must support slavery then!!! Or: You don't like Dany? You misogynistic asshole!

[A Schwartz to be reckoned]

She is so boring most of the time. She can be so arrogant sometimes that I believe that Viserys warged her before he died. Everything to do with Daario just bothers me. Most of all the fact that she has basically taken over Mereen so that she can pracitice being a queen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well, I'm not surprised that there was no safeguard. People buying slaves don't want them to have secret commands, it would ruin any trust they had gained. On top of that, it would undercut the absolute loyalty part of the equation. And I'm not sure you can train a person to be completely loyal to one person except in one case, there might be...strains.

Someone said it could be done using an "I, Robot" type of conditioning. First rule, never take up arms against Astapor or its citizens. Second rule, obey your master in everything, except when it conflicts with the first rule. And so on.

On top of that it's a clearly unprecedented scenario, no one else could have afforded to buy all the Unsullied, including the young, I would assume that they would have wanted to keep those for future profits, no matter how much they were offered, hell scarcity could increase demand. Anyone buying a single batch could presumably have gone crazy, but he'd have had to deal with the other Unsullied, as well as all the other slave soldiers in the city.

That's kind of what I mean — her success there depends on the slavers being greedy and stupid to the point of absurdity. Like I said, I loved it when I first read it. Then I went back and the whole thing just leaves bad taste in my mouth. I actually think that she's going to lose most of the Unsullied in the upcoming Meereen battle, so it'll probably end up being a wash.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Someone said it could be done using an "I, Robot" type of conditioning. First rule, never take up arms against Astapor or its citizens. Second rule, obey your master in everything, except when it conflicts with the first rule. And so on.

I think from now on (if anyone is even making Unsullied I honestly can't remember) that will be the case but I can understand why it wasn't thought of before. Given that in the real world details get missed (my favorite being that it was two days before the Bay of Pigs that those in charge realized how big Cuba was - they'd previously thought it about the size of Long Island - so wish I was joking) I don't blame the Astapori for not training with the idea that they would have no back up from other Unsullied at some point in the future.

[butterbumps!]

Nope. That is a sockpuppet. A strawman is a manufactured talking point that cannot be possibly defended by any means necessary without the defender coming off as wrong and a doushe. Example: You don't like Dany? You must support slavery then!!! Or: You don't like Dany? You misogynistic asshole!

Actually, I think what Stanmore said is closer to the definition. A strawman is an argument set up to be easily torn down. It's where you take an opposing argument, twist it a bit so it looks superficially similar, but in actuality has little internal validity to the original point, then knock it down and look like you've defeated the opposing side. Examples include hyperbolizing the opposing argument, quoting something out of context, oversimplifying an argument and various degrees of misrepresenting the opposing side. To illustrate: Person 1: "Chinatown is a cinematic masterpiece." Person B: "Roman Polanski is a child molester, and nothing he does can be good; that you like his work calls into question your stance on pedophilia."

A sockpuppet relates to the creation of online personas to mask your identity and pose additional arguments from different perspectives (I think).

[Bourne]

I dislike Dany because people say she's a better ruler than Tywin. And it makes me sad that people can be that stupid.

[The Greenseer]

In relation to Dany's entitlement: she did bring dragons into the world, and therefore has a gift & magic that no one else possess. If that is not enough she is of direct bloodline to the former king, I'd day that's a pretty fair reason to feel some entitlement.

Sure she has made mistakes and been annoying at times. Yet it is difficult not to have some empathy for someone who was orphaned, raised in exile by a demented brother, and married off against her will. I think she has the potential to bring some enlightenment to Essos and Westeros.

So I don't understand hatred for Dany.

[Lord Ben]

Nope. That is a sockpuppet. A strawman is a manufactured talking point that cannot be possibly defended by any means necessary without the defender coming off as wrong and a doushe. Example: You don't like Dany? You must support slavery then!!! Or: You don't like Dany? You misogynistic asshole!

He was mostly right. It's making up a fake argument for your opponent that's easy to defeat (men made of straw don't fight back very well!).

So I say "doing nothing would be better, she should have listened to her advisors who cautioned her to go to Westeros. It was a foolish decision." and instead of retorting to the real point I made his response is that I don't know the ultimate outcome of every decision you make which is silly if that's what I said, but I made no such claim. But while I don't know the outcome of every single decision I make I do know the outcome if I sack and burn a city and then set everyone free in a society that has had slavery for thousands of years. It would be bad (and was) and that's all I claim to know.