Why do people hate Dany?

[butterbumps!]

Robespierre ends up getting guillotined, yes? B)

What the hell are you talking about?!? He ushered in an unrivaled age of peace and prosperity through fire and blood and lived happily ever after with the icy blue flower he plucked while touring his kingdom on dragonback.

[Lord Ben]

Rubbish. Children are not adults and can not be held to the same standards of accountability. If a 4 year old touches a hot pan it;s because they haven't learned the consequences of such actions. children don't enter this world knowing everything they need to know in life. That's why we have schools, and universities.

A child is physically, emotionally and intellectually undeveloped. That's the reason we make the distinction between children and adults in the first place. To suggest otherwise is quite frankly ludicrous.

Are we talking about if she's a good or a bad person? Or if her actions, decisions and leadership is good/bad. In some sort of morality discussion her age and inexperience could be a factor but I frankly don't care. She's a tyrant and a shitty ruler who makes horrible decisions and leaves ruined cities in her wake.

She's in fact such a terrible ruler that despite these cities being the worst sort of festering dens of inhumanity in the world Dany finds a way to leave them in worse condition after a visit.

If I were to decide to reform the cities I'd sack them and leave a few of my trusted friends behind me with enough soldiers to keep order. I'd slowly introduce social reform as it made sense. But Dany doesn't have people she trusts, she has dragons and the temper tantrum of a spoiled teenager and a sense of self entitlement. So instead she just says "All the slaves are free, here listen to this nurse because she's your new councilman and will rule you!" and leaves for another city.

[Stanmore]

@Stanmore At this point, I would argue that Dany is a prodigy, and so she doesn't get to use her age as a defense for her major failures. She razed those cities, and she placed a crown on her head, and by doing so, she freely chose to take on the responsibilities and ramifications of those actions. Conquest and Queenship are this not traditionally associated with a teenager, but that doesn't mean she gets a free pass, either. Yes, she might be inexperienced, and no one isn't saying that governance and war aren't difficult, but these are the choices Dany makes. On the other hand, I think Dany's age can be used as a defense when it comes to her choice in dudes, and her initial rashness in staying in Slaver's Bay to help the slaves. Although the latter doesn't really mitigate the resulting issues, but I can see how a teenage girl would see something like a slave trade, and ideally (and irresponsibly) resolve to fix the situation as Dany does.

Just because she's smart doesn't mean she has wisdom that age brings or the emotional maturity. A 12year old maths whiz might be able to calculate pi to ten thousand places, but that's not going to help him talk to girls, drive a car or serve as CEO for an international company.

I'm not asking anyone to give her a free pass, just a little leniency given her age and lack of experience. She's made a lot of bad decisions I admit that but I don't think that's any reason for people to hate her. She's not a bad person, just a smart kid with way too many responsibilities on her plate.

If it wasn't for everyone she meets calling her the chosen one all the time I think she'd probably have been a lot more cautious in her decision making.

[BabyMeraxes]

Funny. I think Dany listens to her current advisers a bit to much. Reopening the fighting pits, allowing the brazen beasts to interrogate prisoners, marrying Hizdahr.... The problem isn't that she doesn't take advice. The problem is pretty much everyone around her is giving her the wrong advice. Dany never set out to rule. Growing up she always knew that Viserys was destined to rule. She was just a tool to help him achieve that. Then later after her brother had died it was her son that she pinned all her hopes on. He was the "stallion who'd mount the world" not her. It wasn't until Drogo died and his khalasar fell apart that she actually found her self in a position of leadership. Half of the remaining people were slaves she'd already pledged to protect and he other half were in awe of her. She felt that protecting these people was her duty. Since then people have been lining up to support her. The people of Qarth sought her out. Illyro sent ships to fetch her. Selmy travelled half the world to meet her. The slaves she freed from Astapor called her mother and followed her when she expected them to stay and rebuild. Tyrion, Aegon, Quentin, Victarion Moqorro. The list goes on and on. Like it or not she had leadership thrust upon her. Much in the same way that Robb and Jon did.

Yeah, but before Viserys dies, she comments to Jorah about how she would make a better monarch, so the seed for leadership had been planted, and it was planted by Dany herself. I get what you're saying, but I still think Dany made the decision to be a leader, even in that moment before and after the Pyre. She could've fled for Asshai with Jorah, but she decides to stay. I don't think this is a point that needs to be defended, though, because by stepping up as a leader, Dany's actions probably saved those people. We're on the same side, I promise.

[BabyMeraxes]

Just because she's smart doesn't mean she has wisdom that age brings or the emotional maturity. A 12year old maths whiz might be able to calculate pi to ten thousand places, but that's not going to help him talk to girls, drive a car or serve as CEO for an international company.

I'm not asking anyone to give her a free pass, just a little leniency given her age and lack of experience. She's made a lot of bad decisions I admit that but I don't think that's any reason for people to hate her. She's not a bad person, just a smart kid with way too many responsibilities on her plate.

If it wasn't for everyone she meets calling her the chosen one all the time I think she'd probably have been a lot more cautious in her decision making.

I think this is a key part of Dany's character that often gets lost in the shuffle. She's is a genuinely good, kind, empathetic person who really cares about her people, and won't turn away the wretched outcasts of society. She just fucked up Slaver's Bay. Yeah, she's not a good ruler, but she is a good person at her core, and that means more to me.

[Stanmore]

Are we talking about if she's a good or a bad person? Or if her actions, decisions and leadership is good/bad. In some sort of morality discussion her age and inexperience could be a factor but I frankly don't care. She's a tyrant and a shitty ruler who makes horrible decisions and leaves ruined cities in her wake. She's in fact such a terrible ruler that despite these cities being the worst sort of festering dens of inhumanity in the world Dany finds a way to leave them in worse condition after a visit. If I were to decide to reform the cities I'd sack them and leave a few of my trusted friends behind me with enough soldiers to keep order. I'd slowly introduce social reform as it made sense. But Dany doesn't have people she trusts, she has dragons and the temper tantrum of a spoiled teenager and a sense of self entitlement. So instead she just says "All the slaves are free, here listen to this nurse because she's your new councilman and will rule you!" and leaves for another city.

We're talking about why people hate her. People paint her as evil and say that's why they dislike her. I've been trying to show that she's not such a bad person as people make out.

If you hate her because of a lack of leadership skills then you must really hate about 70% of the characters in the series. Robb won every battle he was in and still managed to lose the war because of his errors in strategy and diplomacy. Stannis has already seen his fleet burn, lost one army in battle and is well on his way to having another freeze to death. Robert Baratheon, Renly, Ned stark, Cersi, Lysa Arryn, Doran Martell they've all made terrible blunders of leadership, and they're just the tip of the iceberg.

Dany isn't the only one making mistakes with far reaching consequences, pretty much everyone is.

Edit: I've reread your comments and realised that's not what you're saying. I'll leave the post though on the off chance somebody really does feel that way. ;)

[Stanmore]

Yeah, but before Viserys dies, she comments to Jorah about how she would make a better monarch, so the seed for leadership had been planted, and it was planted by Dany herself. I get what you're saying, but I still think Dany made the decision to be a leader, even in that moment before and after the Pyre. She could've fled for Asshai with Jorah, but she decides to stay. I don't think this is a point that needs to be defended, though, because by stepping up as a leader, Dany's actions probably saved those people. We're on the same side, I promise.

I think what she was saying was a criticism of his leadership skills, not so much a declaration that ruling is her own destiny. Viserys had been telling her how great a leader he would make since she was a small child. It wasn't until she had Drogo to compare him to that she realised how much of a snivelling coward her brother really was.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not asking anyone to give her a free pass, just a little leniency given her age and lack of experience. She's made a lot of bad decisions I admit that but I don't think that's any reason for people to hate her. She's not a bad person, just a smart kid with way too many responsibilities on her plate.

I feel like I've said this about eight times and it has yet to sink in, so maybe I'm wasting my time, but ... she brought this on herself. All of this "responsibility" on her plate? She chose to take it on. It's on her. I always say, again and again and again, if she's old enough to consciously sack a city, she's old enough to take responsibility for it, both the good and the bad.

This is why I'm harder on her awful leadership than I am on Jon's (although I'd argue Jon did better but was undone by poor communication) — Jon was elected. He didn't choose the position, and he didn't put his name in for it. He didn't barrel into the mess hall and scream that, "I'm the blood of the wolf, you'll do as I say, I'm running things now!" Yet he constantly gets shit on for his mistakes, when he stepped into a position that he didn't choose and probably didn't anticipate having for years and years yet. But we're supposed to give Dany the benefit of the doubt, when she actively chose to get into the mess she's in? Please.

[Fantôme]

About the age matter, I'd just like to point out that no child-character acts their age in these books for our modern standards .Apparently the age of majority or equivalent in Westeros is about 16 and that's not surprising since all the young protagonists we follow often demonstrate unbelievable qualities and maturity for their age so we can't consider Danny as we would a modern teenager.

@ Stanmore

About the French revolution, of course we'll never tell you it wasn't worth it but I don't see how it's comparable to slaver's bay.It was a popular revolution, not a foreign army coming out of nowhere to kill the leaders and free the people.

[Stanmore]

I feel like I've said this about eight times and it has yet to sink in, so maybe I'm wasting my time, but ... she brought this on herself. All of this "responsibility" on her plate? She chose to take it on. It's on her. I always say, again and again and again, if she's old enough to consciously sack a city, she's old enough to take responsibility for it, both the good and the bad.

This is why I'm harder on her awful leadership than I am on Jon's (although I'd argue Jon did better but was undone by poor communication) — Jon was elected. He didn't choose the position, and he didn't put his name in for it. He didn't barrel into the mess hall and scream that, "I'm the blood of the wolf, you'll do as I say, I'm running things now!" Yet he constantly gets shit on for his mistakes, when he stepped into a position that he didn't choose and probably didn't anticipate having for years and years yet. But we're supposed to give Dany the benefit of the doubt, when she actively chose to get into the mess she's in? Please.

So you've missed all my posts where I explain how she's had leadership thrust upon her just as much as Jon has? For pretty much the whole story everyone around her has been telling her things like "you're the blood of the dragons. "you must go back to Westeros and claim your crown Khalalesi" "I came from westeros to pledge myself to you" "you are the mother of dragons. It is known." "Be my wife and we will rule side by side".... And you wonder why she feels entitled.

Pretty much everyone she rules over has pledged themselves to her of their own free will. Jorah, her bloodriders, her khalasar, Selmy, her freed men. She even gave the unsullied their freedom. Ok, so maybe the masters of Meereen didn't have any say in their new queen but they're in a clear minority. She has a better mandate than many of the rulers in the series.

[David C. Hunter]

Are we talking about if she's a good or a bad person? Or if her actions, decisions and leadership is good/bad. In some sort of morality discussion her age and inexperience could be a factor but I frankly don't care. She's a tyrant and a shitty ruler who makes horrible decisions and leaves ruined cities in her wake. She's in fact such a terrible ruler that despite these cities being the worst sort of festering dens of inhumanity in the world Dany finds a way to leave them in worse condition after a visit. If I were to decide to reform the cities I'd sack them and leave a few of my trusted friends behind me with enough soldiers to keep order. I'd slowly introduce social reform as it made sense. But Dany doesn't have people she trusts, she has dragons and the temper tantrum of a spoiled teenager and a sense of self entitlement. So instead she just says "All the slaves are free, here listen to this nurse because she's your new councilman and will rule you!" and leaves for another city.

Very well said

I feel like I've said this about eight times and it has yet to sink in, so maybe I'm wasting my time, but ... she brought this on herself. All of this "responsibility" on her plate? She chose to take it on. It's on her. I always say, again and again and again, if she's old enough to consciously sack a city, she's old enough to take responsibility for it, both the good and the bad. This is why I'm harder on her awful leadership than I am on Jon's (although I'd argue Jon did better but was undone by poor communication) — Jon was elected. He didn't choose the position, and he didn't put his name in for it. He didn't barrel into the mess hall and scream that, "I'm the blood of the wolf, you'll do as I say, I'm running things now!" Yet he constantly gets shit on for his mistakes, when he stepped into a position that he didn't choose and probably didn't anticipate having for years and years yet. But we're supposed to give Dany the benefit of the doubt, when she actively chose to get into the mess she's in? Please.

Most of the people that hate on Jon are those who have a liking towards Dany or the Targaryans. Jon is a threat to their fantasized ending of Dany riding on a Dragon in westeros and saving the day.

Whether someone finds Jon's story boring or not is another matter, but the reasons for disliking Dany seem more rational then the reasons for disliking Jon. At least as far as this thread goes.

[jon rr stark]

Just rereading the Dany chapter in aSoS where Dany strikes down the slavers of Astopor and frees the Unsullied. Rousing stuff, especially as a female reader, newer to the fantasy genre. Her progress in aDwD is less heroic. Hell it isn't even progress really. I understand being frustrated with her. But I don't understand the Dany haterade that sometimes flows on this board. She's teaching herself and learning as much as she can in circumstances that she was never expected to participate in, much less succeed in. Similar to Arya . Sure she makes mistakes, but shes a hormonal teenager after all. So why the hate?

Its her arrogant assumption she can rule because of her birth (granted there is a lot of that in westeros) and the fact that her story arc is going nowhere fast, plus she is just too whingey

[David C. Hunter]

So you've missed all my posts where I explain how she's had leadership thrust upon her just as much as Jon has? For pretty much the whole story everyone around her has been telling her things like "you're the blood of the dragons. "you must go back to Westeros and claim your crown Khalalesi" "I came from westeros to pledge myself to you" "you are the mother of dragons. It is known." "Be my wife and we will rule side by side".... And you wonder why she feels entitled. Pretty much everyone she rules over has pledged themselves to her of their own free will. Jorah, her bloodriders, her khalasar, Selmy, her freed men. She even gave the unsullied their freedom. Ok, so maybe the masters of Meereen didn't have any say in their new queen but they're in a clear minority. She has a better mandate than many of the rulers in the series.

Everyone read the books differently, but when I read the chapters when she was plotting to take over Mereen I got the sense that she wasn't doing it for the slaves or for freedom, she was just doing it as a trial run and to gain more soldiers, etc. If you sack a city just for training purposes you are making your own decisions. That wasn't 'thrusted' upon her.

[BlueDragon]

According to OED, racism means: The definition swings both ways, and relates to the belief of inherent qualities based on race. It has to do with stereotyping- drawing conclusions about an individual based on generalizations about one's race. "Institutionalized racism" is a qualifier that pertains to what you're talking about, but on its own, racism can be committed by any individual of any ethnicity towards any individual of any ethnicity. When you posit : "If say a Mexican American hates European Americans because of his/her experience with oppression which is the result of racism directed at Mexican Americans, that emotion is not racism. That emotion is a reaction to oppression. It might be hatred, but it isn't racism. Unless said Mexican American believes European Americans are inferior, mentally, emotionally and physically, s/he is not expressing racism. Racism always includes a definition of inferiority towards a non-white group. Racism is not simply identifying another group. Racism requires defining that other group as inferior." it's sort of missing the issue of racism. Hating European Americans for oppressing you is not racist, because you do not hate them because of their race. You hate them because there is a direct causality between their actions and your hatred. But if you were a Mexican American and hated European Americans because you believed your culture to be superior, or because you thought Europeans were Meatheads, then this would be racist, even if you were simultaneously oppressed by them. There are definitely instances of very real racism toward white people, Americans and other "dominant" ethnicities-- for a recent concrete example, the extremist ideals behind 9/11 comes to mind.

I know the OED definitions inside and out. There a host of meanings attached to race and racism. I stand on what I said and your repetition of my example strengthens what I said. You don't seem to realize that you used the example exactly as I did. You might want to go to the full OED entry for 'race.' It is many, many pages long and, in and of itself, provides a history of the concept of race.

Reversing racism is not really possible in terms of the system we are part of.

The violence of 9/11 has nothing to do with race, Middle Eastern peoples are not even a race seperate from European Americans in any racial classification created formally to date. It is true that since 9/11, many Americans have racialized Middle Easterners, but this is very recent. 9/11 is an example of the clash of empires on the grounds of political dominance. The hatred some radical Muslims feel for America has to do with the oppression of the American empire. It has absolutely nothing to do with race.

It may be true that the category "Middle Eastern" race is evolving among certain Americans, but it takes quite a while for a radical category to emerge, formally or informally. Eleven years doesn't even come close.

I realize most people don't understand the history of the idea of race, but nothing could be more important.

Racism has to do with heirarchy as is obvious from the definitions I quoted.

My point would be that various forms of -isms work in complicated and subtle ways. It doesn't matter what the -ism is, racism, sexist, classism, homophobia, etc., etc., the workings of power structures are complicated and cannot be reduced to simple formulas.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So you've missed all my posts where I explain how she's had leadership thrust upon her just as much as Jon has? For pretty much the whole story everyone around her has been telling her things like "you're the blood of the dragons. "you must go back to Westeros and claim your crown Khalalesi" "I came from westeros to pledge myself to you" "you are the mother of dragons. It is known." "Be my wife and we will rule side by side".... And you wonder why she feels entitled.

And what does any of that have to do with her decision to go in the opposite direction of Westeros and sack multiple large cities? If anything, those points are reasons for her to go to WESTEROS. She CHOSE to ignore that and go to Slaver's Bay instead. "Thrust upon her" my ass.

Pretty much everyone she rules over has pledged themselves to her of their own free will. Jorah, her bloodriders, her khalasar, Selmy, her freed men. She even gave the unsullied their freedom. Ok, so maybe the masters of Meereen didn't have any say in their new queen but they're in a clear minority. She has a better mandate than many of the rulers in the series.

And the Night's Watch pledged themselves to Jon of their own free will. By swearing fealty to a monarch, you're pledging yourself to them of your own free will. There's nothing different about people recognizing her than people recognizing Robb or Robert or Stannis. There's always a mandate in a feudal society — the monarch can't exist without the recognition of the nobility. Jorah's in love with her and Selmy was shamed and dismissed. She gave the Unsullied freedom but oh they so conveniently decide to follow her anyway — she gets the perfect obedient slave army without the ickiness of actually having them be slaves. And you wonder why people consider that a cheap plot gift.

[David C. Hunter]

Its her arrogant assumption she can rule because of her birth (granted there is a lot of that in westeros) and the fact that her story arc is going nowhere fast, plus she is just too whingey

To add to that, my biggest beef with Dany besides the obvious ones is that she doesnt listen. She refuses to listen when it clashes with her pre-conceived beliefs. Its insufferable. Sometimes I wish ser Barristan would grow a pair and tell her exactly what her family 'really' means to the world.

[Stanmore]

About the age matter, I'd just like to point out that no child-character acts their age in these books for our modern standards .Apparently the age of majority or equivalent in Westeros is about 16 and that's not surprising since all the young protagonists we follow often demonstrate unbelievable qualities and maturity for their age so we can't consider Danny as we would a modern teenager.

She's still not a fully developed adult in my eyes despite whatever responsibilities her culture might have placed on her. I'd argue the point further but i think i've said all i can on the subject withoutrepeating myself.

About the French revolution, of course we'll never tell you it wasn't worth it but I don't see how it's comparable to slaver's bay.It was a popular revolution, not a foreign army coming out of nowhere to kill the leaders and free the people

True. It seemed pretty popular with the slaves after it had happened though. I'm sure many of them were dreaming of a day when they could rise up. Dany just gave them the opportunity. Hell even the army she used wasn't really foreign. I'm sure killing the Masters of Astapor gave the Unsullied great cathartic pleasure.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Any woman who must say, "I am the dragon!" is no true dragon.

I completely agree with you! I was attempting to poke fun at her...hehe! I must admit hearing her proclaim, "By the blood of old Valyria, I am the dragon's daughter!" is always a good laugh! :P

[Fantôme]

I know the OED definitions inside and out. There a host of meanings attached to race and racism. I stand on what I said and your repetition of my example strengthens what I said. You don't seem to realize that you used the example exactly as I did. You might want to go to the full OED entry for 'race.' It is many, many pages long and, in and of itself, provides a history of the concept of race. Reversing racism is not really possible in terms of the system we are part of. The violence of 9/11 has nothing to do with race, Middle Eastern peoples are not even a race seperate from European Americans in any racial classification created formally to date. It is true that since 9/11, many Americans have racialized Middle Easterners, but this is very recent. 9/11 is an example of the clash of empires on the grounds of political dominance. The hatred some radical Muslims feel for America has to do with the oppression of the American empire. It has absolutely nothing to do with race. It may be true that the category "Middle Eastern" race is evolving among certain Americans, but it takes quite a while for a radical category to emerge, formally or informally. Eleven years doesn't even come close. I realize most people don't understand the history of the idea of race, but nothing could be more important. Racism has to do with heirarchy as is obvious from the definitions I quoted. My point would be that various forms of -isms work in complicated and subtle ways. It doesn't matter what the -ism is, racism, sexist, classism, homophobia, etc., etc., the workings of power structures are complicated and cannot be reduced to simple formulas.

• the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races
  
• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior: a program to combat racism
  

The definitions you quoted clearly state that racism has to do with someone believing there's superiority related to race, not the existence of it. And it's absolutely not impossible for a black person or a middle Easterner to believe they are superior to a caucasian person

She's still not a fully developed adult in my eyes despite whatever responsibilities her culture might have placed on her. I'd argue the point further but i think i've said all i can on the subject withoutrepeating myself. True. It seemed pretty popular with the slaves after it had happened though. I'm sure many of them were dreaming of a day when they could rise up. Dany just gave them the opportunity. Hell even the army she used wasn't really foreign. I'm sure killing the Masters of Astapor gave the Unsullied great cathartic pleasure.

Right after it happened yes, but I'm pretty sure many of the slaves were not too happy to be dying of starvation and new epidemics . The ones who voluntarily chose to go back to slavery for example. Anyway it still doesn't have anything to do with a revolution the people is responsible for.

[BabyMeraxes]

Very well said Most of the people that hate on Jon are those who have a liking towards Dany or the Targaryans. Jon is a threat to their fantasized ending of Dany riding on a Dragon in westeros and saving the day. Whether someone finds Jon's story boring or not is another matter, but the reasons for disliking Dany seem more rational then the reasons for disliking Jon. At least as far as this thread goes.

Yeah, but then I could argue for the opposite. A lot of people on this thread that dislike Dany also really like Jon (I happen to like both of them), and her arrival in Westeros could hinder Jon's ascension to the Iron Throne, so there could be some consternation there that magnifies Dany's flaws and sweeps her successes under the rug. The more I read character comparisons (and even though I've used similar arguments in the past), the more I dislike them. Especially in Dany's case, because her story is so isolated from everyone else. However, I get that Jon, Dany and Cersei, at least in the last two books, are supposed to be foils for each other, but everyone's situation is different enough that a blanket comparison doesn't really work.