"Dany Thread of the Week" Part II

[danm_999]

Tommen. If you can look past his hatred of beets.

Tommen raises cats to knighthood. Such a thing speaks to an evil soul.

[Stanmore]

Very true! Do you think the Qarth would have been interested in gaining access to her/her dragons if she wasn't so forceful with the boat requests? Would XXD have kept requesting marriage or would he have eventually kicked her out (politely, of course)? Would the Undying have tried to snatch her/her dragon(s)? How would things have been different if she'd just been a tourist/visitor of the greatest city that ever was or will be?

The people of Qarth sought her out soley because she had dragons. If it weren't for the dragons do you think they'd have even let her half staved band of nomads into the city? Dont pretend that Dany's actions are the cause of other people's greed.

[Stanmore]

Tommen. If you can look past his hatred of beets.

Tommen is a good kid, and Aegon probably hasn't done anything wrong himself (Unless you count starting a war to claim his birthright as an immoral act ) but they're more puppets than players, and the people pulling the strings aren't the nicest bunch.

[butterbumps!]

Tommen raises cats to knighthood. Such a thing speaks to an evil soul.

Agreed. It's worse than disemboweling them.

Actually, though, on a more serious note, that all the characters are grayed doesn't mean that we can't evaluate their leadership capabilities in a consistent way (not saying that's what you were saying, Stanmore, just thinking it out). I think what's interesting is that there seems to be a big split in the rubric against which we considered good and bad leaders here- outcomes versus intentions, being efficacious versus caring about smallfolk, strategy versus tactics, etc. What rubric do you use- as in what qualities do you consider important- in considering who you think would be best to lead?

Invitation to everyone:

I've been meaning to do a chapter by chapter analysis of Dany and Jon's arcs in Dance for a while. I started typing out chapter recaps this morning, but it's a big task, and I realized that it might be a little too intense for this more general thread. If anyone would like to start a Dany-Jon thorough comparison thread, and take turns doing recap/ analysis, PM me and let's do it!

[Stark@heart]

Taken herself to Pentos (and hell, she could even have done this AFTER Astapor WITH the Unsullied) where with Illyrio and Aegon she can use the Golden Company and Dorne to invade Westeros.

That's what she was suppose to do but once again she mucks up Vary's and Illiyo's plans. Good for her.

If she had run for Pentos she would have been swept up in Aegon's return to the Throne and pushed aside, Mother of Dragons or not, to be only his bride/queen with no more of a chance in ruling the kingdom that Aegon has -regardless of Kingship or Dragons- because that Vary's and Illiyo will keep for themselves.

Dany changed the Game when she hatched the Dragons. That's one of the things I love about her character. ( I hope we get to see Vary's and Illiyo together again, bitching about all the trouble a mere woman child has caused them)

Dany also reminds me a lot of Ned. She trying to do the right thing but there are powerful forces working against her as well as human nature, which as a sheltered and abused child, she doesn't fully grasp. I blame Jorah more for Ashpour than Dany. He knows enough of the world and war to know that a place like that cannot be ruled by a council without an army to back it up. Someone, like him, needed to be left behind with some UnSullied to keep the peace. Dany thought they would all be so overjoyed to be free ( like her) that they would hold to it and work for the betterment of all , blah, blah You get the picture, they didn't and Jorah should have saw that coming.

Dany learned a hard lesson there, one she didn't want to repeat but still she is too kind to bring those she wars against to their knees before she starts wanting to kiss the boo boos and make them better.

I think that's over now. She has claimed her (inner) Dragon and Danaery's the Dragonrider will be a true Warrior Queen. When she gets back to Mereene, she doesn't have to burn them all - she can round up all the Sons of the Harpies left and send them to the Wall. :drunk:

[Stanmore]

Agreed. It's worse than disemboweling them. Actually, though, on a more serious note, that all the characters are grayed doesn't mean that we can't evaluate their leadership capabilities in a consistent way (not saying that's what you were saying, Stanmore, just thinking it out). I think what's interesting is that there seems to be a big split in the rubric against which we considered good and bad leaders here- outcomes versus intentions, being efficacious versus caring about smallfolk, strategy versus tactics, etc. What rubric do you use- as in what qualities do you consider important- in considering who you think would be best to lead?

Fundamentally I think a good leader needs to have the best interests of their people at heart. A Queen needs to care about her subjects and a commander needs to understand the needs of his subordinates Yes situations will arise where they will have to weigh the needs of their people vs achieving some greater goal, but these decisions should not be made lightly and should be the exception not the rule.

Secondly a leader needs to be able to command the trust and respect of those working under them. You can have all the best intentions in the world, and the ideas to turn those intentions into reality, but if you can't get people to follow your orders then you're not really a leader at all.

Thirdly a leader needs to be intelligent. They don't need to come up with all the ideas, but they need to be able to spot the good ideas that other people come up with, and they need to be able to evaluate the pros and cons of one course of action against another.

Beyond that things will depend on the specific needs of the role, though adaptability, delegation skills and a good amount of luck are always useful.

Invitation to everyone: I've been meaning to do a chapter by chapter analysis of Dany and Jon's arcs in Dance for a while. I started typing out chapter recaps this morning, but it's a big task, and I realized that it might be a little too intense for this more general thread. If anyone would like to start a Dany-Jon thorough comparison thread, and take turns doing recap/ analysis, PM me and let's do it!

I'd love to get in on that but i'm spending way to much time on these forums already. I look forward to reading the results though :D

[danm_999]

That's what she was suppose to do but once again she mucks up Vary's and Illiyo's plans. Good for her.

If she had run for Pentos she would have been swept up in Aegon's return to the Throne and pushed aside, Mother of Dragons or not, to be only his bride/queen with no more of a chance in ruling the kingdom that Aegon has -regardless of Kingship or Dragons- because that Vary's and Illiyo will keep for themselves.

Err, no she'd be a dragon rider. They can't sweep her aside because the dragons are imprinted to her.

[The Other Knight]

Which contender for the throne isn't morally questionable at this point?

The boy born of Ice and Fire. :D

[FuzzyJAM]

Which contender for the throne isn't morally questionable at this point?

The guy actually sitting on the throne (metaphorically, I doubt he'd like the spikes) is seemingly very kind and caring and hasn't ordered any torture that I can recall. And Jon, if you count him, is pretty close to being what I consider morally sound, though I have some issues with him intending to go and fight Bolton (yes, I know that's probably not common, and most would feel he took too long. . .) even if it's utterly understandable. But that's besides the point: just because all of them suck doesn't mean I have to say the least bad is good.

I do like the argument someone made that Tyrion would be effectual, regardless of any moral problems. I think that's maybe a good point - Dany seems to believe in making people's lives better (or at least she believes that she believes it. . .) and a Hand or Hand-esque figure to actually help her figure out how to do it and point out when she's being hypocritical and deceiving herself may be good. Eh. We'll see.

[The Other Knight]

The guy actually sitting on the throne (metaphorically, I doubt he'd like the spikes) is seemingly very kind and caring and hasn't ordered any torture that I can recall. And Jon, if you count him, is pretty close to being what I consider morally sound, though I have some issues with him intending to go and fight Bolton (yes, I know that's probably not common, and most would feel he took too long. . .) even if it's utterly understandable. But that's besides the point: just because all of them suck doesn't mean I have to say the least bad is good.

I do like the argument someone made that Tyrion would be effectual, regardless of any moral problems. I think that's maybe a good point - Dany seems to believe in making people's lives better (or at least she believes that she believes it. . .) and a Hand or Hand-esque figure to actually help her figure out how to do it and point out when she's being hypocritical and deceiving herself may be good. Eh. We'll see.

This is a great way of describing Dany. She believes herself a better person then she truly is. She isn't self-aware, not one bit.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is a great way of describing Dany. She believes herself a better person then she truly is. She isn't self-aware, not one bit.

And that's what makes her so dangerous.

[The Other Knight]

And that's what makes her so dangerous.

Very true.

It is also why I find it so odd that some take her "good intentions" as something in here favor. She is so clearly feeding her own ego with these actions as opposed to actually doing anything good. She is buying into the hype of herself as some great savior.

[Castel]

The point is that there is worth in the homeless man with the heart of gold. He might not be the best choice for the surgery, but he's going to accomplish something.

In cases of extreme complexity the homeless man is going to do more harm than good. That's the thing here, solitary acts of goodness are fine, like say, saving one person from slavers or marauders. But when you get into trying to defeat an entrenched idea that has literally defined an area for millenia you better be able to understand the problem, account for all the variables, and dispassionately fix all the problems that arise, even if they require more bloodshed.

[Stanmore]

Very true. It is also why I find it so odd that some take her "good intentions" as something in here favor. She is so clearly feeding her own ego with these actions as opposed to actually doing anything good. She is buying into the hype of herself as some great savior.

I think she probably is buying into some the hype around her, but I don't see how that completely invalidates her desire to help people. Doing good things makes her feel good about herself, but i'd imagine that's the case for most people. I don't buy into the belief that the only altruistic action is a completely self sacrificing one.

[The Other Knight]

I think she probably is buying into some the hype around her, but I don't see how that completely invalidates her desire to help people. Doing good things makes her feel good about herself, but i'd imagine that's the case for most people. I don't buy into the belief that the only altruistic action is a completely self sacrificing one.

The problem with this is, what she did wasn't really all that good or even close to self-sacrificing. She warps the situation to fit her view on reality. Slavers bad, me savior good. Thus what I do here is right even when the truth dictates otherwise.

[Stanmore]

In cases of extreme complexity the homeless man is going to do more harm than good. That's the thing here, solitary acts of goodness are fine, like say, saving one person from slavers or marauders. But when you get into trying to defeat an entrenched idea that has literally defined an area for millenia you better be able to understand the problem, account for all the variables, and dispassionately fix all the problems that arise, even if they require more bloodshed.

I don't think Dany's really a homeless person though. To strain the analogy (to the edge of breaking point perhaps) she's more like a girl who's got a natural talent for medicine and her friends and family have all told her she'd make a great doctor, but since she can't afford to go to medical school she's decided to teach herself online. She's had a few successes treating her family and everyone is telling her she should take over running that big hospital down town.

Instead she decides to turn an old crack house into a clinic. She turfs out the dealers with the help of her friends and starts treating patients, while she works on studying for a medical degree part time. Things go ok at first but then patients start dying, the crack addicts want their house back and she doesn't know what to do so she asks her friends Half of them say she should stick with the clinic and the other half say she really should get over to that big hospital, the director has died and she'd be the perfect person to put in charge... ;)

[Stanmore]

The problem with this is, what she did wasn't really all that good or even close to self-sacrificing. She warps the situation to fit her view on reality. Slavers bad, me savior good. Thus what I do here is right even when the truth dictates otherwise.

It's funny, but from where I'm standing it feels like you're the one warping the situation. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I just never saw Dany in those terms while reading the books. Maybe I fell into GRRMs trap and he's set me up to like her while subtly showing what a despicable person she is underneath, or maybe she really is an essentially good person despite some of the bad decisions she's made and you're letting your personal dislike of her colour your judgement.

I'm still inclined to believe the second view is true, but I’m not going to rule out the first. There's already been a lot of things I’ve discovered while reading these forums that I missed in the books. And the Dany as villain theory certainly seems a popular one. I think I might have to dive back into the books a lot sooner that I was expecting to and re-read things with fresh eyes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's funny, but from where I'm standing it feels like you're the one warping the situation. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I just never saw Dany in those terms while reading the books. Maybe I fell into GRRMs trap and he's set me up to like her while subtly showing what a despicable person she is underneath, or maybe she really is an essentially good person despite some of the bad decisions she's made and you're letting your personal dislike of her colour your judgement.

Or maybe you're letting your like of her color your judgment, too? It can work both ways, you know.

I'm still inclined to believe the second view is true, but I’m not going to rule out the first. There's already been a lot of things I’ve discovered while reading these forums that I missed in the books. And the Dany as villain theory certainly seems a popular one. I think I might have to dive back into the books a lot sooner that I was expecting to and re-read things with fresh eyes.

This really helped me. Believe it or not, I actually liked her up until I finished ADWD, wherein she lost abut 80 IQ points and was worse than useless. When I went back and reread the books, the warning signs were there — I'd just missed them the first time. "I'm the blood of the dragon, do not presume to teach me lessons" was particularly unsettling the second time around. The Unsullied "purchase" came across as especially ill-advised in the long run. And of course all the talk of "Usurpers' dogs" and whatnot. ADWD was really just the culmination of three books of build-up and doesn't exist in a vacuum.

[butterbumps!]

I don't think Dany's really a homeless person though. To strain the analogy (to the edge of breaking point perhaps) she's more like a girl who's got a natural talent for medicine and her friends and family have all told her she'd make a great doctor, but since she can't afford to go to medical school she's decided to teach herself online. She's had a few successes treating her family and everyone is telling her she should take over running that big hospital down town.

Instead she decides to turn an old crack house into a clinic. She turfs out the dealers with the help of her friends and starts treating patients, while she works on studying for a medical degree part time. Things go ok at first but then patients start dying, the crack addicts want their house back and she doesn't know what to do so she asks her friends Half of them say she should stick with the clinic and the other half say she really should get over to that big hospital, the director has died and she'd be the perfect person to put in charge... ;)

Wow. I had to laugh at that, that took some creativity.

I agree with the issue that Castel's getting at with the surgery thing. The person performing the "untrained" operation need not be stupid or grossly incompetent or completely ignorant or have other mitigating circumstances. You can make the same argument that someone trained as a lawyer ought not to try surgery because their area of expertise is just simply not medicine, and that they should know their limitations. When there's a chance someone might know something better than you, it's up to you to accept that you don't have the answers and step away, so in the case of non-emergent surgery, to call someone with the proper training.

I think what Castel's also getting at is that it's not as disastrous to step in without proper knowledge on an individual basis. I could see that parallel being like your friend is injured in the wilderness, and you need to perform emergency surgery/ medical help despite a lack of training because if not the person will die anyway. This is more of a life or death scenario, and perhaps more importantly, there's fewer lives at stake by stepping in.

[The Other Knight]

It's funny, but from where I'm standing it feels like you're the one warping the situation. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I just never saw Dany in those terms while reading the books. Maybe I fell into GRRMs trap and he's set me up to like her while subtly showing what a despicable person she is underneath, or maybe she really is an essentially good person despite some of the bad decisions she's made and you're letting your personal dislike of her colour your judgement. I'm still inclined to believe the second view is true, but I’m not going to rule out the first. There's already been a lot of things I’ve discovered while reading these forums that I missed in the books. And the Dany as villain theory certainly seems a popular one. I think I might have to dive back into the books a lot sooner that I was expecting to and re-read things with fresh eyes.

I don't think she is a villain, but I definitely think she is oblivious and far too in love with herself. This is the book series with the Stark children for comparison. It is hard for me to see her in a good light with them around.

You mention the pandering of others on her behalf and act as if she shouldn't be able to see past it, especially after Viserys. Instead of learning from how much Viserys view of his place in world warped his reality, she does very much the same thing.