Bride of Fire — Not Husbands?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The "Jon and Dany won't make dragon pups" thread got a little derailed, so I thought I'd move this to its own thing.

Basically, straightforward question: What is it about the "bride of fire" sequence that makes so many people so sure it refers to husbands?

Is it the word "bride"? Fine and dandy, except that we also have the "daughter of death" sequence, depicting people who are not, from what I know, Dany's father. Meaning, "daughter" is not used literally in that sequence. So why automatically assume that "bride" is used literally here? Just like "death" is really the kicker in "daughter of death," I think that "fire" is the kicker in "bride of fire," and that "bride of fire" refers to a ... loving, shall we say ... relationship and identification with fire, not such a relationship with any of the things depicted in the vision. I see it as a feminine form of Aerys saying that fire was the Targaryens' champion in the Starks' trial. Aerys was "championed" by fire, and Dany is "married" to it.

But ... the silver mare points to Drogo, doesn't it, and he was her husband, so the other two visions must be husbands too! Not so fast. If you accept that the ship corpse is Euron/Victarion/whoever and that the blue rose is Jon, then reading the silver mare as Drogo doesn't work. If the vision is representative of a husband, then by all rights Dany should have seen Drogo's red stallion, not her silver mare. Who is symbolized by the silver mare? Dany herself.

And of course, the obvious issue — where's Hizdahr in all of this? What use is a prophecy predicting husbands if it doesn't predict all the husbands?

Butterbumps! had a good analysis of how each of those visions could mean something else entirely — conflicts. The first vision, of the silver mare in the grass by a stream, is actually very similar to Dany's position — in the Dothraki Sea, by a stream — at the end of ADWD, where she has her epiphany (she sees Viserys at night and the mare is depicted under the stars). Butterbumps! suggested that this conflict is an internal one, with Dany wrestling with her own identity. The second vision points to a conflict with whoever the ship corpse is (probably a Greyjoy), and the third hints at eventually having to fight Jon in some way. What's Dany's weapon of choice in all of this? Fire. She embraces her Targaryen (fire) identity at the end of ADWD, ending that struggle. She could fight the ironborn with a dragon, and has dreams of fighting an ice-armored army on the Trident with fire. I think "bride of fire" means exactly what it says — she identifies with and makes use of fire, and it doesn't necessarily infer any kind of marital relationship with the three things in the sequence.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Three "bride of fire" visions don't necessarily have to mean all husbands in Dany'a life, just the most important ones (and therefore Hizdahr just doesnt count), the same as "three treasons" don't mean she will be betrayed only three times.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Three "bride of fire" visions don't necessarily have to mean all husbands in Dany'a life, just the most important ones, the same as "three treasons" don't mean she will be betrayed only three times.

And nothing to say about the idea that it isn't about husbands at all?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

And nothing to say about the idea that it isn't about husbands at all?

I think it is. Also I have always believed "bride of fire" means bride from fire - someone who represents an element of fire in the relationship - not bride to fire i. e. someone who is married to fire. Goddamn English ambiguity :frown5: It is a song of ice and fire - therefore bride of fire, groom of ice.

[PatrickStormborn]

I've never thought it specifically referred to husbands -- just men who will help further her position as Azor Ahai, the bride of fire (much like Melisandre believes Stannis is the warrior of fire). Drogo led to the birth of the dragons, the second vision may refer to one of the Greyjoys or Aemon, and the third vision may just mean Jon will aid Dany in the final part of her "destiny".

[butterbumps!]

I would add, I think it leads to further confusion because there is also the issue that the "bride of fire sequence" serves to further explicate the "three mounts you will ride" said earlier. I posted this in another thread, but it might help show the parallelisms (and lack of):

An abridged version of the HotU is this (after they tell her to drink from both the cups of fire and ice:

To start off: mother of dragons, child of three; three heads has the dragon

1. mother of dragons...child of storm...three fires you will light...one for life, one for death one to love

2. Three mounts you must ride....one to bed, one to dread and one to love

3. Three treasons you will know...once for blood, once for gold and once for love

*mocking whispers* Then images

1. Images of Viserys' and Rhaegar's deaths

mother of dragons, daughter of death

2. red sword in hand of blue eyed king, a cloth dragon, great stone beast breathing shadow-fire taking flight from a smoking tower

mother of dragons, slayer of lies

3. silver trotting under a night sky by the stream, corpse at the prow, blue flower in ice

mother of dragons, bride of fire

4. (whirling images) little girl running toward a house with a red door; MMD shrieking in flames, dragon bursting from her brow; silver horse dragging a bloody corpse; white lion running through tall grass; a line of naked crones shivering and bowing before her; 10,000 slaves crying "mother"

*the Undying advance + Drogon sets the place ablaze*

I think ambiguity in interpretation comes in when it is assumed that the "3 mounts you shall ride" all refer to sex or to men. I think only the first "mount to bed" does- her silver taking her literally to bed. I think the second- "mount to dread" is probably her dragon. "Mount to love" I don't believe will be romantic, but a more universal sort of love, like ships taking her away to found a new nation (I love this idea), or something else. In any event, I think the mounts leads to the husbands idea, but as you can see from the quote, they are not set up symmetrically to refer to each other, and I don't think that mount to love relates to the blue flower growing in the wall.

PS. thanks Apple!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it is. Also I have always believed "bride of fire" means bride from fire - someone who represents an element of fire in the relationship - not bride to fire i. e. someone who is married to fire. Goddamn English ambiguity :frown5: It is a song of ice and fire - therefore bride of fire, groom of ice.

So who's your ice, in this equation?

I've never thought it specifically referred to husbands -- just men who will help further her position as Azor Ahai, the bride of fire (much like Melisandre believes Stannis is the warrior of fire). Drogo led to the birth of the dragons, the second vision may refer to one of the Greyjoys or Aemon, and the third vision may just mean Jon will aid Dany in the final part of her "destiny".

So you don't like the idea of Dany's plot serving men, but it's OK for men's plots to serve Dany?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

So who's your ice, in this equation?

Most likely Jon. I know many people don't like the idea of Dany/Jon affair but the hints are quite strong. Also Jon is man from the north, his surname is Snow and whatever happens to him now may make him even more strongly connected to the element of ice.

[PatrickStormborn]

So you don't like the idea of Dany's plot serving men, but it's OK for men's plots to serve Dany?

One: Drogo was a plot device, much like plenty of women in the series have been plot devices. I never said Jon would be a plot device so stop beating a "strawman" (as you would put it).

As men have not been used as plot devices continuously in the fantasy genre, I wouldn't have a problem with any of the male characters merely being plot devices. As it stands, none of them will be.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Most likely Jon. I know many people don't like the idea of Dany/Jon affair but the hints are quite strong. Also Jon is man from the north, his surname is Snow and whatever happens to him now may make him even more strongly connected to the element of ice.

As I've said, I see them more likely to be in opposition than anything. And Jon is both ice and fire, not just ice.

[GreyDeLeon]

But that contradicts other parts of the prophecy.

"three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . ." Pg.426 aCoK

"three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love" Pg.426 aCoK

It seems she will find some one she will love. And Bride of Fire could also mean that she being a Targ is fire. Her personality is fiery.

And all three are Gifts given to her by her supposed husbands Silver from Drogo, Ships from Greyjoy, and a Rose from Jon. The last one is a stretch but I could see it happening.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

As I've said, I see them more likely to be in opposition than anything. And Jon is both ice and fire, not just ice.

He may have Targaryen blood, but there is very little of fire in his personality and looks. Also, nothing hints he will become a dragon rider, although it still can happen.

[Errant Bard]

Given the developments in ADWD, I'm not all that convinced that the last vision is about Jon, and I would find it bad writing if, for the second, a *visual* prophecy hinged on a play on word only the book readers could see.

I'm a bit unconvinced by the reading of a literal description of her first night with Drogo as conflict. When you have to bring up something "internal" you know it's a stretch, especially for three hand-picked event that are supposed to illustrate "bride of fire"-fiery conflits/dancing with fire-

Similarly, you bring up the daughter of death to point that she isn't the literal daughter of Rhaegar, Vyserys and Rhaego, but the vision still contradicts somewhat the reading of "bride of fire" as conflicts, since even if she is not a literal daughter, she is clearly a metaphorical one for these three, in how they made her what she is, forced her on the path she is. A conflict reading doesn't acknowledge a metaphorical "bride" part (marriage, attachment, significant other, living with...) that could be rattached to the specific visions.

And of course, there's the slayer of lies triplet, which is not metaphorical, and is totally about her slaying lies.

This being said, I like the interpretation that it doesn't mean actual marriages (I've a long bet on one of those metaphorical "husbands" being female, but heh...), but I thing there has to be something close to the meaning brought by "bride" in every case.

[ARYa_Nym]

I would add, I think it leads to further confusion because there is also the issue that the "bride of fire sequence" serves to further explicate the "three mounts you will ride" said earlier. I posted this in another thread, but it might help show the parallelisms (and lack of): I think ambiguity in interpretation comes in when it is assumed that the "3 mounts you shall ride" all refer to sex or to men. I think only the first "mount to bed" does- her silver taking her literally to bed. I think the second- "mount to dread" is probably her dragon. "Mount to love" I don't believe will be romantic, but a more universal sort of love, like ships taking her away to found a new nation (I love this idea), or something else. In any event, I think the mounts leads to the husbands idea, but as you can see from the quote, they are not set up symmetrically to refer to each other, and I don't think that mount to love relates to the blue flower growing in the wall. PS. thanks Apple!

Most people think that the mounts that she must ride refer to animals not people and they may/may not coincide with romantic interests. Drogon most likely is the mount for dread but he may not have anything to do with a romantic partner.

The majority of people with this theory don't think that Jon is the mount to love or the fire that she must light to love because they are trying to align the sequences. Some people have done this though. Some people think that Jon is associated with the ones to do with love. I don't think so though. I think the betrayal for love is more like to be from Barriston or Tyrion. She was already warned about the Lion.

Anyways, I think the first one in the bride of fire sequence shows Dany on her wedding night. Drogo isn't in the image because she was traveling behind him and trying to keep up with him. I don't think the blue rose literally symbolizes Jon but shows other imagery that are connected to Jon. As well as the second one the corpse part may refer to the Drowned God which helps people get who the prophecy may refer to.

[Howling Mad]

Mount to love could also refer to her position at the end of ASOIAF such as ruling from position not originally sought after such as a reborn new Valyria. Daenerys may have had her hearts desire set on the Ironthrone but perhaps comes to realize that her true love is not in ruling Westeros but rather ending slavery on her side of the narrow sea. Such a juxtaposition does not preclude her involvement in Westeros in either defeating the pretender Blackfyre Aegon or in helping defeating the Others. It just supposes that in the end Dany chooses a different "mount to love" other than sitting the Ironthrone.

[a free shadow]

I say I like butterbumps! more and more :cheers:

Regarding the possibility of Jon and Dany (with prophecies or without), I actually completely missed it in the books (maybe the instinct of self defence), but now think it will happen. Not just to spite me, but to spite me :box: . If any "syymetry" could have been planned from the beginning, it is this one.

[butterbumps!]

But that contradicts other parts of the prophecy. "three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . ." Pg.426 aCoK "three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love" Pg.426 aCoK It seems she will find some one she will love. And Bride of Fire could also mean that she being a Targ is fire. Her personality is fiery.

And all three are Gifts given to her by her supposed husbands Silver from Drogo, Ships from

Greyjoy, and a Rose from Jon. The last one is a stretch but I could see it happening.

It doesn't contradict the prophesy, because the 3 fires, mounts and treasons do not match up precisely. The 3 fires you must light are said relationally to the images of Viserys and Rhaegar, the 3 mounts line up with the vision of Stannis, mummer's dragon and stone dragon, and the 3 treasons align with the bride of fire sequence.

But I like your idea that the things she sees in the bride of fire refer to things people have given her on her way. I strongly don't believe that the flower will be reciprocated romantic love, but potentially some kind of peace, or epiphany she will have where she understands what love means, and realizes that razing things to the ground is an unattainable goal and not what she truly wants in her heart.

Side note: Run with me on this. I've been shamelessly plugging the idea that Dany's true destiny is not Westeros, but perhaps forging a new nation from the ground up. At the end of Dance, she has fully embraced the fire and blood identity, resolves herself to thinking that "dragons do not plant," and that she will conqueror (i.e. take established communities through force). I like the idea that at the end of all this, she revises that notion, abandoning the conqueror mentality in favor of a nation-builder, i.e. someone who does plant. I think there might be something to the fact that the image she sees is a plant- a flower- and might foreshadow her ultimate goal of putting down roots somewhere, building upwards rather than taking. I think Jon might be a catalyst for her reaching this conclusion (though her love for him or by his opposing her, I could not say), but I think there's something interesting here. Or, I'm way offbase and firing crackpots.

ETA: Aww FreeShadow thnx!

Howling4Reed beat me to that last part!

[tze]

Look at what Dany thinks of Drogo's pyre:

The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought.

The Undying told Dany, among other things, "three fires must you light, once for life and once for death and once to love". She then told the Undying "I don't understand. . . . Help me. Show me." The visions that come next, including the three "bride of fire" visions, implicitly come to "help her" understand the Undying's previous words: ". . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . ." And then the visions start coming.

The image of her silver trotting beneath a field of stars represents Drogo's pyre, the fire for life (it hatched her dragons), because the pyre was meant to send his spirit to literally ride among the stars. The dead man at the prow of a ship could indicate the second fire she'll light, the fire for death---she'll burn the Ironborn's ships (those that survive the crossing) when she arrives in Westeros, to keep her forces from taking one look at the snow-covered, devastated countryside, and just deciding to retreat back across the Narrow Sea (similar to what Nymeria once did in Dorne).

The blue rose growing out of a chink in a wall of ice could indicate that Dany's going to burn down the Wall or destroy the Northmen (though I seriously doubt either of those possibilities). But as I've pointed out previously, this description doesn't have to indicate Jon at all---it could very easily be an image of Highgarden in winter, thus indicating a Tyrell connection, not a Northern connection, especially given that winter will be in full swing basically everywhere by the time Dany finally arrives in Westeros (and especially given the fact that Aegon and the Tyrells are set up to clash, and if something happens to Tommen, as Cersei's prophecy seems to indicate, then House Tyrell would be ripe for an alliance with Dany).

In Westeros, marriage among the nobility isn't supposed to be about love, it's supposed to be about alliances. Dany would then be described as "bride of fire" for the three groups that she 1) allies with and 2) destroys: Drogo's khalasar, and in my speculation, Victarion's fleet and the Tyrell forces (who we've seen described as roses). (This would also explain why Hizdahr isn't necessarily present here: Dany didn't break the Great Masters of Meereen, she basically left them in power. The alliance with the highborn Meereenese is destroying her, not the other way around.)

It doesn't contradict the prophesy, because the 3 fires, mounts and treasons do not match up precisely. The 3 fires you must light are said relationally to the images of Viserys and Rhaegar, the 3 mounts line up with the vision of Stannis, mummer's dragon and stone dragon, and the 3 treasons align with the bride of fire sequence

Not necessarily, though. If you line up the Viserys/Rhaegar/Rhaego "daughter of death" vision with the "three heads has the dragon" portion of the first paragraph, then the "slayer of lies" visions line up with the "child of storm" bit and the "three fires must you light" lines up with "bride of fire".

[Howling Mad]

Side note: Run with me on this. I've been shamelessly plugging the idea that Dany's true destiny is not Westeros, but perhaps forging a new nation from the ground up. At the end of Dance, she has fully embraced the fire and blood identity, resolves herself to thinking that "dragons do not plant," and that she will conqueror (i.e. take established communities through force). I like the idea that at the end of all this, she revises that notion, abandoning the conqueror mentality in favor of a nation-builder, i.e. someone who does plant. I think there might be something to the fact that the image she sees is a plant- a flower- and might foreshadow her ultimate goal of putting down roots somewhere, building upwards rather than taking. I think Jon might be a catalyst for her reaching this conclusion (though her love for him or by his opposing her, I could not say), but I think there's something interesting here. Or, I'm way offbase and firing crackpots.

ETA: Aww FreeShadow thnx!

See my post at #15

[Howling Mad]

I agree with butterbumps! on the mount to love referring to a ruling seat and not a husband/lover.

Especially considering that Dany is starting to indentify herself as a Valyrian rather than as a Targaryen IMHO. Everyone covets her dragons for the purpose of conquering Westeros and sitting the Ironthrone. Wouldn't it be surprising then to have Dany reject the Ironthrone when its her's to have by "right" (don't attack me Apple) by either lineage or conquest?