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Mulled Wino

[Book Spoilers] The countinuing emasculation of Jon Snow

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I've read the whole thread and everyone's got a point so far.

I can't question the qualities of Kit Harington as an actor. He seems a really good actor to me and is nailing the part with the script they gave him. The problem of how Jon Snow is represented in the show comes from the script, not from the acting imo.

It was clearly what the show makers wanted to accomplish with the extended Jon/Ygritte dialoges. They were very helpful for the non-book readers to get a deeper insight into the wildlings culture and see the differences between the two folks. The scene where Jon and Ygritte were yelling at each other was pretty intense and I liked it.

My complaints are about several other changes, which have already been discussed repeatedly in this thread.

I've already mentioned this in a different topic, but it seems that in season two, Jon has only been lectured all the time by different characters (which I now understand have to be apparently some sort of "father figures") and been called stupid all over again.

I can tell in several scenes that Mormont gives him some be-a-man-of-the-NW-speech then calls him a bad steward, Qhorin lectures him about life beyond the Wall and then calls him stupid and finally Ygritte makes a fool out of him and on the top of that calls him stupid (but brave - oh, what a relief). What is up with that? And why has Jon have to beg to go with Qhorin? Why was that change necessary? I also don't remember how exactly was it in the books, but why does Jon want to kill Ygritte himself, when he is probably feeling wrong about killing a woman? That does not make any sense. And the biggest issue so far - GHOST, WHERE ARE YOU? Has he been eaten by Orell? They better include Orell somehow as an excuse, or this would really be the most useless direwolf in the history of Westeros.

I have high hopes that the last episode will contain some damage control. I have never complained about anything in the TV show before and it is the best show ever, I enjoy every minute of it. Jon Snow is my favourite character in the books and in the show and Kit is doing a great job, but I really hope that D&D will put Jon's character back on track next season. Otherwise it would be such a pity to lose the potential of such well-developed book character.

Edited: spelling

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I've read the whole thread and everyone's got a point so far.

I can't question the qualities of Kit Harington as an actor. He seems a really good actor to me and is nailing the part with the script they gave him. The problem of how Jon Snow is represented in the show comes from the script, not from the acting imo.

It was clearly what the show makers wanted to accomplish with the extended Jon/Ygritte dialoges. They were very helpful for the non-book readers to get a deeper insight into the wildlings culture and see the differences between the two folks. The scene where Jon and Ygritte were yelling at each other was pretty intense and I liked it.

My complaints are about several other changes, which have already been discussed repeatedly in this thread.

I've already mentioned this in a different topic, but it seems that in season two, Jon has only been lectured all the time by different characters (which I now understand have to be apparently some sort of "father figures") and been called stupid all over again.

I can tell in several scenes that Mormont gives him some be-a-man-of-the-NW-speech then calls him a bad steward, Qhorin lectures him about life beyond the Wall and then calls him stupid and finally Ygritte makes a fool out of him and on the top of that calls him stupid (but brave - oh, what a relief). What is up with that? And why has Jon have to beg to go with Qhorin? Why was that change necessary? I also don't remember how exactly was it in the books, but why does Jon want to kill Ygritte himself, when he is probably feeling wrong about killing a woman? That does not make any sense. And the biggest issue so far - GHOST, WHERE ARE YOU? Has he been eaten by Orell? They better include Orell somehow as an excuse, or this would really be the most useless direwolf in the history of Westeros.

I have high hopes that the last episode will contain some damage control. I have never complained about anything in the TV show before and it is the best show ever, I enjoy every minute of it. Jon Snow is my favourite character in the books and in the show and Kit is doing a great job, but I really hope that D&D will put Jon's character back on track next season. Otherwise it would be such a pity to lose the potential of such well-developed book character.

Edited: spelling

It's an interesting question, why does Jon Show volunteer to execute Ygritte? I think the scene actually leaves it very unclear. We were shown, fairly clearly, that Jon stayed his hand because Ygritte was a women and then tried to avoid her being put to death then and there by suggesting she could be questioned. So far, so like the books.

However, unlike the books, it is not really very obvious that Ygritte is Jon's prisoner and therefore his problem. No one mentions that she is, certainly not Qhorin, whereas Jon's responsibility for Ygritte was the ostensible reason he was told to 'do what needs to be done' by Qhorin in the book.

I assumed that Jon Show does feel Ygritte is his responsibility because it was he who effectively captured her rather than running her through straight away. He then feels obliged to take on the grim task of killing her himself based on, an admittedly pretty loose, variant of the Stark ethic that he who passes sentence should swing the sword. This is after all quite like the reason Qhorin orders him to deal with Ygritte in the book and we can just assume Jon Show figured this out for himself.

That said, you really only get this, I think, if you interpret the scene based on the books. No one in the show really indicates they think Jon is especially responsible for Ygritte. In the book he'd already been dragging her around for a day I think and had made an initial decision to spare her so his connection to her was pretty obvious. This isn't really the case in the show I think.

You could instead consider his motivations in light of the two previous scenes, in both of which he has shouted his mouth off about how great he would be as a ranger. Unlike Jon Snow, Jon Show does not kill a wildling when he takes Ygritte prisoner and so he has never really proved himself, in anyway, to Qhorin yet. Therefore he thinks bumping off Ygritte will earn him some respect and of course, because he lacks pretty much all self-awareness it backfires horribly.

Revolting yes but in line I think with the abomination that is Jon Show.

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I've read the whole thread and everyone's got a point so far.

I can't question the qualities of Kit Harington as an actor. He seems a really good actor to me and is nailing the part with the script they gave him. The problem of how Jon Snow is represented in the show comes from the script, not from the acting imo.

It was clearly what the show makers wanted to accomplish with the extended Jon/Ygritte dialoges. They were very helpful for the non-book readers to get a deeper insight into the wildlings culture and see the differences between the two folks. The scene where Jon and Ygritte were yelling at each other was pretty intense and I liked it.

My complaints are about several other changes, which have already been discussed repeatedly in this thread.

I've already mentioned this in a different topic, but it seems that in season two, Jon has only been lectured all the time by different characters (which I now understand have to be apparently some sort of "father figures") and been called stupid all over again.

I can tell in several scenes that Mormont gives him some be-a-man-of-the-NW-speech then calls him a bad steward, Qhorin lectures him about life beyond the Wall and then calls him stupid and finally Ygritte makes a fool out of him and on the top of that calls him stupid (but brave - oh, what a relief). What is up with that? And why has Jon have to beg to go with Qhorin? Why was that change necessary? I also don't remember how exactly was it in the books, but why does Jon want to kill Ygritte himself, when he is probably feeling wrong about killing a woman? That does not make any sense. And the biggest issue so far - GHOST, WHERE ARE YOU? Has he been eaten by Orell? They better include Orell somehow as an excuse, or this would really be the most useless direwolf in the history of Westeros.

I have high hopes that the last episode will contain some damage control. I have never complained about anything in the TV show before and it is the best show ever, I enjoy every minute of it. Jon Snow is my favourite character in the books and in the show and Kit is doing a great job, but I really hope that D&D will put Jon's character back on track next season. Otherwise it would be such a pity to lose the potential of such well-developed book character.

Edited: spelling

I agree, the fact that everyone calls him stupid or any other variation of it is probably my biggest complaint. Want to show him make mistakes? Fine, I can live with that, I guess. But why call him stupid every freaking episode? It makes me cringe every time. It's just too much. Isn't Ygritte's line enough? They're intentionaly turning him into an internet meme. It's the same with Craster and Ygritte making fun of his "pretty face". It just makes him look weak. They never did this to Richard Madden or any other male character. I'm waiting for the moment when Ygritte mocks his hair.

I have a bad feeling there will be no Orell and Jon's face will stay pretty. What a shame, I loved that scene. They've already omitted the flexing of his hand which is such a great part of his personality.

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Other than Simon Armitage's Halfhand, Jon's story is actually better than in the books, as is Dany's. This scenario makes his being taken in by Mance more believable than in the books.

And as for the Halfhand, he was more the 'strong, silent type' in the books, which just doesn't work on TV when its the leader. And to be fair, for what he's been given, Simon Armitage is doing a solid job as Qhorin Halfhand.

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This scenario makes his being taken in by Mance more believable than in the books.

How so?

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This character arc seems more about Jon discovering his duty to the Night's Watch than anything else. Jon has no love for the Wall in my opinion; he definitely thought it would be different and there would be more good men there like Benjen and Jeor, rather than rapists and thieves. He saw it as his only option as the Bastard of Winterfell who wanted to make his own claim on society. He remembers being a child with Robb and saying that he wanted to be the "Lord of Winterfell." Even though he knew he couldn't he still had big aspirations and the Wall was the best place for a bastard to make a name for themselves.

I think the question is why does anyone like Jon as a character? He's a spoilt brat who thinks he deserves more than he does because of who his father is. I think a lot of his story in the show so far has revolved around learning how to become a brother of the Night's Watch and this is very much the way his character arc in Season 2 has played out. In many ways, Jon ends up giving-up himself to be a black-cloak on the Wall, evident in his betrayal to Ygritte at the Queenscrown because he is more loyal to the Watch than he is to the girl he loves. Season 2 has to be all about how he gets to this point. Right now, he's making an absolute mess of things, I can't argue that, and everyone around him seems to have his better. Mormont's line of "learn how to follow" seems to be quite important to his story arc; Jon is still, at this point, struggling with the fact that he is in no way a leader and that people can easily push him around. Most importantly, Jon's learning that he's clearly not as big as he thinks he is.

In the episode summary for 'Valar Morghulis' "Jon proves himself to Qhorin." As readers it seems pretty obvious what this is going to be. The thing is that this will be the first time Jon has followed the orders of a leader around him; as in, perhaps he has finally discovered his duty. It's hard to argue because episode 10 is still a week and a half away but I'm assuming Jon and Qhorin will have one more dialogue interchange where Qhorin tells him what to do, Jon says he won't do it, and Qhorin reminds him of his duty before they ultimately fight and Jon goes off with his Wildling band.

Next season should really iterate just how unimportant he is up until the point where he does -- arguably -- the most important thing any member of the Night's Watch has done in a century. As in, he risks his life to get back to the Wall before the Wildlings and informs them all of their oncoming war, saving the Watch in the process. He does this because he finally understands his duty as a brother. The boy at the beginning of AGoT would be thrilled to be elected Lord Commander, it is known. But Jon isn't because he knows that either way his duty is to the Wall no matter what his position is.

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I don't understand why people are so upset about not seeing the wolves. Not showing them makes sense financially and to be honest, I'd rather have more screen time for an actor that's actually going to do something than a wolf.

Also, the scenes with Jon are some of my favorite. Ygritte is an interesting character, she's funny and her taunting is making him question a lot of the assumptions he has made. This time is important because it helps build Jon Snow's identity, who he will be for the rest of the series. Ygritte trolling him is a big part of that. Jon is sort of a man without a country. Cat didn't want him and he felt like he never belonged with the Starks because he was a bastard. Now he's wondering if he belongs with the NW - the group he joined just so he could flee the shadow cast by the last name he so desperately wants.

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Who? Ghost? I think ghost is dead or ice skating.

Jon Snow. His survival after book 5 is in grave question.

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Other than Simon Armitage's Halfhand, Jon's story is actually better than in the books, as is Dany's. This scenario makes his being taken in by Mance more believable than in the books.

And as for the Halfhand, he was more the 'strong, silent type' in the books, which just doesn't work on TV when its the leader. And to be fair, for what he's been given, Simon Armitage is doing a solid job as Qhorin Halfhand.

How long has it been since you have read ACoK? Jon's story is in no way better on the show, than it is in the book. There was nothing unbelievable about Mance accepting Jon in the book, if you can call it that, he had Jon watched like a hawk night and day. Also, killing Qhorin is a pretty good move, for making the Wildlings think you have turned your cloak.

I really don't see though, how you think it's more believable for Mance to accept Jon in the show, considering it hasn't even happened yet, you don't know what all they are going to do, so I don't know how you can make some bogus claim like that. What "scenario" are you talking about exactly? And how can Jon's story be better than the book, when they are making him look like an idiot the whole time, and there is no Warg element to his story in the show, and that was one of the best things about his story in the book.

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I don't understand why people are so upset about not seeing the wolves. Not showing them makes sense financially and to be honest, I'd rather have more screen time for an actor that's actually going to do something than a wolf. Also, the scenes with Jon are some of my favorite. Ygritte is an interesting character, she's funny and her taunting is making him question a lot of the assumptions he has made. This time is important because it helps build Jon Snow's identity, who he will be for the rest of the series. Ygritte trolling him is a big part of that. Jon is sort of a man without a country. Cat didn't want him and he felt like he never belonged with the Starks because he was a bastard. Now he's wondering if he belongs with the NW - the group he joined just so he could flee the shadow cast by the last name he so desperately wants.

Agree...especially about Ygritte. She's a pistol--or a throwing knife in keeping with the situation. I asked elsewhere if GRRM is a democrat. He may favor the societies of the Night Watch and Wildlings who elect their leaders. The discussion between the two showed that.I also like the discussion between Jaime and Catelyn as far as challenging assumptions.

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How so?

Can't speak for Patchface, but I always felt like there wasn't enough set up from the Wilding side when it came to Jon's turn. Even with him killing Qhorin it felt wierd for the next step to be join the wildlings, and ialso Jon killling Qhorin didn't feel quite urgent enough (similar to Cat releasing Jaimie-I don't think it was always the reasoning that bothered people but the absence of urgency, hence the show putting Jaimie in a situation where he would ide if he wasn't released), so much so that I question whether book Jon really could kill Quhorin at that point. That transition kind of makes more sense to me if the Wildling play a more active role in setting up Quhorins death, presenting Jon with sort of a choice, but in a way no choice at all.

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Can't speak for Patchface, but I always felt like there wasn't enough set up from the Wilding side when it came to Jon's turn. and ialso Jon killling Qhorin didn't feel quite urgent enough (similar to Cat releasing Jaimie-I don't think it was always the reasoning that bothered people but the absence of urgency, hence the show putting Jaimie in a situation where he would ide if he wasn't released), so much so that I question whether book Jon really could kill Quhorin at that point.

He couldn't kill him that's why book Qhorin let himself be killed.

That transition kind of makes more sense to me if the Wildling play a more active role in setting up Quhorins death, presenting Jon with sort of a choice, but in a way no choice at all.

Seems his death will be the same, only how he gets his sword back will be another matter.

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He couldn't kill him that's why book Qhorin let himself be killed.

Seems his death will be the same, only how he gets his sword back will be another matter.

Not to mention Jon had Ghost helping him fight Qhorin.

As for how Jon and Qhorin will fight. I imagine Jon will ask to join the Wildlings, and they will tell him to prove his word by killing Qhorin, and to do that, they will give them both their swords.

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I don't understand why it is such a problem that the wolf is missing. Wouldn't it have looked much more stupid if Jon had been caught by the wildlings and even his wolf didn't notice anything/put up a fight? They clearly didn't have enough time to build up the whole chasing plot with the eagle and the other rangers, so making it a short capture scene was the best thing they could go for. Anything else would have involved a fighting scene, and because the plot demands they are captured eventually, everything Jon and Qhorin could have done in a short scene would have looked bad anyway. The wildlings need to get the upper hand at this time in the story, so the crows are bound to lose. Putting emphasis on Ghost in this 'doomed' kind of situation would have made everything worse, like: They have a freaking direwolf and are STILL captured? It only made sense in the book, where there was enough time to explain the odds and especially the great advantage the wildlings had in Orell.

There are two possible ways for Ghost to come back:

First: He will be the deus ex machina (that made me hate all the Stark plots in the books) and jump into the fight just right in time to help Jon defeat Qhorin in a convincing way - needless to say I am not a friend of the direwolves. They are basically used as a plot device: Someone threatens Jon? In comes a direwolf! Someone doesn't respect Jon? Enter a direwolf! Someone looks more badass than Jon? Look at his direwolf, here he comes!

(As a matter of fact, I like the changes made to the characterisation of Jon. There will be enough time for him to be a hero, so I think it makes him a much more believable character with real flaws instead of alibi flaws).

Second: Ghost will give us our first look at the gathered free folk as a cliffhanger for next season. One of the last moments of the series (or of Jon's story arc at least) will be Ghost looking down upon the gathering, including giants and mammoths, and it will be glorious and threatening at the same time. A perfect cliffhanger, maybe even a chance to get a first look at Mance Rayder, who might well have been casted already (please, HBO!). I would like that very much.

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I don't understand why it is such a problem that the wolf is missing. Wouldn't it have looked much more stupid if Jon had been caught by the wildlings and even his wolf didn't notice anything/put up a fight? They clearly didn't have enough time to build up the whole chasing plot with the eagle and the other rangers, so making it a short capture scene was the best thing they could go for. Anything else would have involved a fighting scene, and because the plot demands they are captured eventually, everything Jon and Qhorin could have done in a short scene would have looked bad anyway. The wildlings need to get the upper hand at this time in the story, so the crows are bound to lose. Putting emphasis on Ghost in this 'doomed' kind of situation would have made everything worse, like: They have a freaking direwolf and are STILL captured? It only made sense in the book, where there was enough time to explain the odds and especially the great advantage the wildlings had in Orell.

There are two possible ways for Ghost to come back:

First: He will be the deus ex machina (that made me hate all the Stark plots in the books) and jump into the fight just right in time to help Jon defeat Qhorin in a convincing way - needless to say I am not a friend of the direwolves. They are basically used as a plot device: Someone threatens Jon? In comes a direwolf! Someone doesn't respect Jon? Enter a direwolf! Someone looks more badass than Jon? Look at his direwolf, here he comes!

(As a matter of fact, I like the changes made to the characterisation of Jon. There will be enough time for him to be a hero, so I think it makes him a much more believable character with real flaws instead of alibi flaws).

Second: Ghost will give us our first look at the gathered free folk as a cliffhanger for next season. One of the last moments of the series (or of Jon's story arc at least) will be Ghost looking down upon the gathering, including giants and mammoths, and it will be glorious and threatening at the same time. A perfect cliffhanger, maybe even a chance to get a first look at Mance Rayder, who might well have been casted already (please, HBO!). I would like that very much.

Look up dues ex machina, because the direwolves are no such thing. If you have a story, and you establish early on that the main character is an amazing fighter, and then as he gets attacked, he always wins, would that be dues ex machina? No. Same goes for the Starks and their direwolves. The funny thing is, your calling the direwolves dues ex machina, yet did Robb's direwolf save him, did it stop him from being brutally murdered? Did Ghost stop Jon from getting stabbed by his Brothers? Did Summer stop Bran from falling and becoming a cripple?

Dues ex machina would be one of the Starks about to get killed, only to have a random direwolf jump out of the darkness to save them, and later finding out that the Starks are Wargs, so when they were in danger they unknowingly Warged a direwolf to come save them, and that they had this unknown connection with said direwolf.

For Jon to be such a blundering idiot as they are now making him, that's to much "real flaws" for him to later be a badass leader. It's not like they are making Jon dumb at sword fighting, he could learn that and later become really good, which would be more believable. However, they have made Jon just stupid in general, there is no specificity to his stupidity, so later to have him be an awesome genius leader, it will be completely ridiculous. I don't have a problem with them giving him real flaws, but they should be real flaws he can come back from, and they should not be real flaws that they showed him mostly getting over in season one.

As for Qhorin and Jon getting chased by the Wildlings, they could have shown that in just as many scenes as they showed Jon and Ygritte walking around, at most it might have taken one more slightly longer scene to do the chase, but it was doable. But no, they had to beat it over our heads how dumb Jon is, and what a pistol Ygritte is.

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Other than Simon Armitage's Halfhand, Jon's story is actually better than in the books, as is Dany's. This scenario makes his being taken in by Mance more believable than in the books.

And as for the Halfhand, he was more the 'strong, silent type' in the books, which just doesn't work on TV when its the leader. And to be fair, for what he's been given, Simon Armitage is doing a solid job as Qhorin Halfhand.

How is it more believable? The wildlings would never accept weakness, Snow would get gutted and burned.

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Jon Snow. His survival after book 5 is in grave question.

We dont know because the 6th book isnt out yet.

I dont understand how anyone can say the direwolves arent important to the story. Are you guys non-readers?

Seems to me the direwolves (especially ghost) were very important to the story last year. Why not anymore?

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I don't understand why it is such a problem that the wolf is missing. Wouldn't it have looked much more stupid if Jon had been caught by the wildlings and even his wolf didn't notice anything/put up a fight? They clearly didn't have enough time to build up the whole chasing plot with the eagle and the other rangers, so making it a short capture scene was the best thing they could go for. Anything else would have involved a fighting scene, and because the plot demands they are captured eventually, everything Jon and Qhorin could have done in a short scene would have looked bad anyway. The wildlings need to get the upper hand at this time in the story, so the crows are bound to lose. Putting emphasis on Ghost in this 'doomed' kind of situation would have made everything worse, like: They have a freaking direwolf and are STILL captured? It only made sense in the book, where there was enough time to explain the odds and especially the great advantage the wildlings had in Orell.

There are two possible ways for Ghost to come back:

First: He will be the deus ex machina (that made me hate all the Stark plots in the books) and jump into the fight just right in time to help Jon defeat Qhorin in a convincing way - needless to say I am not a friend of the direwolves. They are basically used as a plot device: Someone threatens Jon? In comes a direwolf! Someone doesn't respect Jon? Enter a direwolf! Someone looks more badass than Jon? Look at his direwolf, here he comes!

(As a matter of fact, I like the changes made to the characterisation of Jon. There will be enough time for him to be a hero, so I think it makes him a much more believable character with real flaws instead of alibi flaws).

Second: Ghost will give us our first look at the gathered free folk as a cliffhanger for next season. One of the last moments of the series (or of Jon's story arc at least) will be Ghost looking down upon the gathering, including giants and mammoths, and it will be glorious and threatening at the same time. A perfect cliffhanger, maybe even a chance to get a first look at Mance Rayder, who might well have been casted already (please, HBO!). I would like that very much.

Why wouldnt jon give us the first look when he is brought to mance? Why waste ghost on that?

At this point they should just leave Ghost out of it. Where's he been? Doing lines in his trailer?

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