[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5

[hurga]

Maybe, but what would she do in Braavos? The Banker paid the Ironborn ransoms mainly to get some extra men to help him in a harsh environment. He hasn't paid a randsome for Asha yet, and may not. Stannis claimed he had plans for her, though it is hard to know what those plans are. It might be a blood sacrifice, or it might be political marriage to one of his loyal lords to have a more pliant puppet to stick on Pyke. Stannis always was about the long term.

Sorry, my fault. The exchange between Stannis and Ser Justin leaves little doubt about what Stannis has in mind for Asha in the near future. I mixed everything up.

I mostly did so because Asha offers a ransom for Theon, so I supposed she was already free and good to go.

I've always disagreed with this thinking, that "one POV" is enough. It may be enough to just relate events, but real drama and interest comes from seeing multiple perspectives of the same developments. Consider how King's Landing was improved by how Tyrion and Sansa reacted differently to the same events.

To be fair, there are far more secondary characters in the capital than in the Baratheon camp with which our POVs can have a conversation.

(Sure that might change, having characters cross their paths with people that are currently involved in the Winterfell events).

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I've read a good number of these pages but there are an awful lot so apologies if i am repeating here.

Regarding Theon's manhood, I believe it isnt that nuch of a dealbreaker but in the TV series doesnt it get sent to Balon Greyjoy? If this wasnt accurate and going to be important later in the books then I am sure GRRM would have corrected them.

Regarding the Ramsay/Reek slave and master fetish, i agree with the idea, simply because Ramsay seems to be a cruel being and would see the irony in using Theon as he used women.

As to the Kingsmoot and Euron, well thats only a problem.so lon as he lives, and war is a risky business...

I dont have any single theory on theon that i am stickig out but I am.inclined to think he wont get the Iron Islands. I am inclined to.believe he is doomed to die, hopefully after redeeming himself. I think Asha may take the Iron Islands, but they will be ruled by the North in the end...going with a Queen of the North ending, rather than united realm

[Jon Blackfyre]

I've had a good read through this thread and a reread of the text, and I think the most likely course of events is:

- Manderly (or an envoy) goes ahead to treat with Stannis. We already know they are ahead of the Freys.

- Stannis asks Manderly about Davos and Manderly explains he sent him to retrieve a still alive Rickon. This is confirmed by Theon. I don't know what happens to Theon after this, though I like the theory him being alive is enough to challenge Euron's reign, even if Theon isn't the one that ends up on the Seastone Chair. Though GRRM is clearly building something about the ravens/weirwoods that could very well involve him, even if some of the Bran/BR predictions are a bit crackpot.

- The alliance is sealed. When the battle comes, the Freys are caught between Manderly's forces, Stannis' forces, and the swiss-cheese lake.

- Manderly returns to WF claiming Stannis is dead (as he hinted at to Massey) with Lightbringer as proof. This is corroborated by some Karstarks and Umbers. The only flaw I can see here is Roose being skeptical, but he could be anywhere really: back at the Dreadfort, off on another mission, whatever. Even if he is doubtful, what else can he do?

- Ramsay writes his letter to Jon. He now has all the information that's in the letter. He thinks fArya (and Theon) have gone to the Wall because loads of his guards spotted fAble's "camp followers" assisting in their escape, so he flays them and uncovers their plan to send them to Jon, and Manderly says they weren't with Stannis. It's the theory best supported by the evidence. The other candidates don't make as much sense: Mance had no way of knowing that at this point there's a large wildling host at Castle Black and doesn't have an apparent motive, while Stannis doesn't have a raven that can go to CB (and I think "Bran takes control!" is a bit crackpot), doesn't have much need of the NW at this point, and (possibly) doesn't have the knowledge about Mance. Besides, Jon would have spotted if the handwriting was different from Ramsay's previous letters. There's no skin because Ramsay doesn't have Stannis' body (Manderly could say it went down during fighting on the lake, for example). This only leaves the smear of wax to be explained: I think this was due to tampering by either NW involved in Bowen Marsh's plot and is tied in to the assasination attempt, or Melisandre watching out for ravens. This makes more sense than the letter originating with the NW plotters as there's a LOT of info in there they don't have.

- Stannis and the northmen still with him are let into WF at night Trojan Horse-style. Many of the northmen previously aligned with the Boltons switch and Roose/Ramsay are defeated.

Bravo, I really feel you've hit the nail on the head, or at least not smashed our thumb with this theory. I can't wait to see it all unfold because it sets the stage for the North partially solidifying under Stannis just in time to get word Aegon is taking over in the South but Stannis knowing he can't leave because the Others' attack is imminent. Once again, Stannis gets shafted, haha.

[Jon Blackfyre]

He might. He either gets the men to Stannis and wins Asha's hand in marriage, or he gets the men, hears of Dany, and meets her with an envoy and 20,000 men.

Or turns south and joins up with Aegon and Connington...

[Heyo Winter Comin']

Bravo, I really feel you've hit the nail on the head, or at least not smashed our thumb with this theory. I can't wait to see it all unfold because it sets the stage for the North partially solidifying under Stannis just in time to get word Aegon is taking over in the South but Stannis knowing he can't leave because the Others' attack is imminent. Once again, Stannis gets shafted, haha.

[Heyo Winter Comin']

Bravo, I really feel you've hit the nail on the head, or at least not smashed our thumb with this theory. I can't wait to see it all unfold because it sets the stage for the North partially solidifying under Stannis just in time to get word Aegon is taking over in the South but Stannis knowing he can't leave because the Others' attack is imminent. Once again, Stannis gets shafted, haha.

Regarding the smear of wax, could this be an indication that roose is no longer present at winterfell, and so his seal is with him? Does Ramsay have his own Bolton seal? They seem to be considered precious things, I doubt there's really multiple copies of house seals lying around.

[mushroomshirt]

Regarding the smear of wax, could this be an indication that roose is no longer present at winterfell, and so his seal is with him? Does Ramsay have his own Bolton seal? They seem to be considered precious things, I doubt there's really multiple copies of house seals lying around.

There is some debate about whether there is actually a bolton seal (at least one that Ramsay has access to). Other letters are sealed with a "button" of hard pink wax. This could describe a seal, but it also might not. The famous pink letter was sealed with a "smear" of pink wax, not a button. It is possible that button = seal, but it is definitely true that smear <> seal. So ambiguous at best, IMO.

[sponce]

I like the idea that they are trying to lure Jon south so they can kill him, before fake Arya has a chance to reach him. i don't think that precludes the letter having been written by Ramsay though. He is lying about defeating Stannis, so he can't send his skin. It's written in a hurry and panic, because he's so freaked/angry about fake Arya being gone, so he doesn't take the time to pull his usual piece of skin, blood-ink shenanigans. The other letters were written when he had triumphed and he had time/the desire to gloat. This is written after "Arya" escapes and as a desperation measure, so that is why there are the differences. The spiky hand thing is interesting, but GRRM may just have been tired of making the same point/description. I personally think this letter was written right after Theon/Jeyne escaped, without any battle having taken place between anyone and Stannis's camp yet at all.

she has to be right about that cause it doesnt make sense for the timeline to just jump back because chronologically Jon would have happened after ther theon chapter if the battle part was true so why give us the theon chapter second and the Jon chapter first

[sponce]

the last part, I mean about the battle not have happened yet when the pink letter was written... It just seems like a last act of despair from Boltons stand point whether it wwas roose or Ramsay doesn't really matter. The Bolton's believe that they command the bigger force, but since the Theon gift chapter we know that Stannis has Captured the Karstarks, and prevented they're betrayal, via the Maester. (so he would have had pink wax either way) + lets be honest guys its medieval times, everyone has candles, it wouldn't be hard to mix red and white wax to get pink. or just have pink wax for that matter. Also aside from capturing the Karstarks he knows that the castellan of Karstark would not have told the plans to they're soldiers, for fear of being caught, so Stannis has caught and removed them, without depleting his military strength... smooth move ... But also Stannis does not know that the Manderley's intends to Turn they're cloaks on the Boltons, to side with Stannis's Cause. so this is another Large force that will be coming to his side during the battle, in fact the Largest force in the north right now, with new fleets, and more heavy horse than anyone above the neck, this will cause a domino effect and all of the planning that Roose has put in for his domination of the North is ultimately undone. ( I believe this will be what leads Roose to kill his Bastard... I could be wrong Because of the Harrenhall Curse I know Roose has to die sometime soon) but either way back to the letter, it HAD to have been written before the Battle takes place simply because, we get the Jon chapter with the Pink letter BEFORE we get the Theon Gift chapter, so chronologically it would be jumping back in time, the letter was written by someone from Winterfell, probably Roose pretending to be Ramsay. and it was written as a last resort, and act of desperation, an indirect look at how fast things are falling apart for cold hearted Roose Bolton. ( Plus he kinda foreshadows himself killing Ramsay through his conversation with Theon when they leave Barrowton)

[EstEst]

Hello, I'm a fresh reader here, and just tried to digest all the previous threads related to this sample chapter. I like the ideas of (1) Stannis winning a battle, (2) Theon's life being spared somehow, most likely due to Bran's intervention, and (3) Pink letter being written by Ramsey. But I have my doubts about the details that seem to be generally approved here - perhaps someone will reassure me?

First, I don't think that Stannis' sword would be brought to Winterfell, by Manderley or Glover or whomever, just to cheat somebody into believing something. The sword is part of a knight, you cannot just replace your old weapon with a random one, you'd have to get used to its balance etc. I don't think Stannis would give his Lightbringer away, for whatever important reason. And what would he do there around Winterfell without a sword at all? No, I think the Lightbringer in Ramsey's posession is a fake (but how could it be?), or taken from Stannis while he was incapable to resist or just lost it somehow, or Ramsey lies about it as well. (There's also a possibility of the letter being true, but I'm not happy with this idea.)

Then, Stannis' being prepared way ahead to the rumors of his death is a very strange thing. Could he discuss it earlier with Melisandre? Perhaps she saw it in the flames? I don't think that he spread the rumor himself, the letter looks 100% genuine Ramsey's creation. Could it be that Stannis had pre-arranged some magical things with Melisandre? Say, she feels that he's been killed (regardless of the result of a battle), and resurrects him? (using his shadow and a drop of his blood from the Braavosi document? sacrificing her life on a way, which gives power to a true Lightbringer?) or something like that? This does not answer the first question however, i.e. how Ramsey got the sword. (only if Stannis was defeated, but it's not the thing I'm happy with, either.)

And finally, that stuff with "yet". I would suppose that Stannis is going to build fake fortifications from debris and snow just before the lake, or the fake walls leaving the open road just above the lake. He would even set guards to make it look more real, to lure Manderley and Freys on the lake. But why then we don't see any preparations? It's not a day's deal, building this stuff, while the enemy are expected any day now.

All in all, the chapter is a diamond. I like so much that "A true king pays his debts" line about the bank agreement! Tell me somebody that he doesn't have a sense of humor!

I'd also like to see if there's going to be any development of Stannis and Asha line, like, e.g., perhaps they will be fighting together and he would develop some kind of respect to her. Would be glad to see him comfortable with a woman, for a change. And - being trained myself in cross-country skiing - I'd like to see a team of Stannis' men skiing to the enemy! :drunk: Under sail, perhaps! (but, alas, it's improbable with all that fresh snow.)

[Little Balerion]

I have a question regarding the Theon I chapter.

Stannis receives a letter, it has black wax seal on it. Theon knows where this letter is from, and he giggles.

Firstly, where is that letter from, what does Theon know and why is he giggling?

Is this something to do with the pink letter?

[illrede]

I have a question regarding the Theon I chapter.

Stannis receives a letter, it has black wax seal on it. Theon knows where this letter is from, and he giggles.

Firstly, where is that letter from, what does Theon know and why is he giggling?

Is this something to do with the pink letter?

Black wax seals are Night's Watch. Theon knew it was from Jon Snow.

[King Zee]

I have a question regarding the Theon I chapter.

Stannis receives a letter, it has black wax seal on it. Theon knows where this letter is from, and he giggles.

Firstly, where is that letter from, what does Theon know and why is he giggling?

Is this something to do with the pink letter?

also keep in mind Stannis does not receive the NW letter in this chapter . He has already received it and already read it at the time the chapter is taking place.

All this means is Theon, chained to the wall was present when Stannis was reading the NW letter earlier and making his plans for dealing with the Karstarks. So he's giggling now becuase he knows whats coming for the Karstarks.

Thats it, no mystery

[Stringer Bill]

Not sure if I stole this idea from the forums or from conversations with friends but...

Stannis indicates that he has the upper hand in an impending battle. " We hold the ground...". When Theon questions him he says,"What ground?... [there are] no natural defenses."

To this Stannis replies "Yet."

There is only one natural defense and that is the lake. They have cut holes in the ice to fish through and turned it into swiss cheese. With a fresh snow fall however those holes would be imperceptible and as soon as Bolton forces marched across it to meet Stannis's army they would fall through. A well timed fire/explosion/anything-really could set off a chain reaction and swallow all their troops at once after they were all atop the ice.

I think Stannis will provoke the Boltons to attack by sending word with the ravens and possibly by letting it slip that he has Reek and that the Karstarks have turned cloak to Stannis's side.

GRRM loves to use historical battles. This to me seems like the right answer

[lucancel]

i loved in the chapter the feeling of everything being under control from stannis when he replied "yet" to theon 's "You have no high ground here, no walls to hide beyond, no natural defenses."

Hopefully Stannis will find his way to win the battle!

OT my first post here, nice to meet you all! sorry for bad english, not my first language!

[Romelason]

Just a wild theory how about when they execute theon at the heart tree it awakens the white walkers sleeping deep beneath the trees a blood sacrifice to awake them like denearys awoke the dragons

[illrede]

Just a wild theory how about when they execute theon at the heart tree it awakens the white walkers sleeping deep beneath the trees a blood sacrifice to awake them like denearys awoke the dragons

Blood sacrifice seems to be what quickens a weirwood heart tree, if Bran's history-walk is something to go by.

[bemused]

No.. there's no reason to think that. The CoTF show no sign of having practiced blood sacrifice themselves. Bran saw a woman weilding a bronze sickle.. is bronze associated with the CoTF ? No. With the First Men ? Yes.

The tees are immortal if they're not interfered with. The only thing we've been told that the CoTF did with the trees is carve faces into their heart trees to awaken them.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

No.. there's no reason to think that. The CoTF show no sign of having practiced blood sacrifice themselves. Bran saw a woman weilding a bronze sickle.. is bronze associated with the CoTF ? No. With the First Men ? Yes.

The tees are immortal if they're not interfered with. The only thing we've been told that the CoTF did with the trees is carve faces into their heart trees to awaken them.

Weirwoods seemigly turn to stone rather than rot too, whic i find strange. But you are right, immortal until someone interferes with them; the Brackens poisoned the monstrous tree at Raventree Hall.

The old kings of the North used to partake in blood sacrafice too; Davos' pov in the Wolfs Den he is told how the slavers who took over had their entrails dangled off the tree to please the OG

[ApKing06]

Just joined. Hi all!

After reading the Theon chapter i have been thinking about the Ramsay letter to Jon. The only thing that makes sense to me at least is that Ramsay did indeed write it and Ramsay believes everything in it to be true. All about Manse and his women is accurate. All else is disinformation sent to him by Stannis. I believe that Stannis defeated the Freys with the help of the Manderlays. They then sent a raven in Karstarks name to Winterfel telling the Boltons that Stannis is dead after 7 days of battle and they have his magic sword. They also write that Stannis had sent Fake Arya and Reek to the wall before the battle. Ramsay buys the deception hook. line, and sinker and sends the "Bastard" letter to Jon Snow. Stannis sends this disinformation to the Boltons knowing that it is the best chance they have of drawing Boltons forces out of Winterfel as not having Arya is a disaster and without her they have no claim to Winterfel and lose legitimacy with the rest of the North. Drawing them out of winterfel is key to victory as Stannis's forces cannot stay out in the cold much longer.

I am quickly reading through the posts on here so most likely you all have thought of this but I thought i would throw my 2 cents worth in anyway (hope it’s worth at least a penny in all of your eyes)

On a side note I am quite sure that any plan of leaving Winterfel will be spearheaded by Ramsay and knocked by Roose and might result in Ramsay possibly killing Roose to get what he wants. If Ramsay doesn’t kill his father then most likely Roose will escape to fight another day.