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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II

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Tyrion is the one who responded to Robb's peace terms and ordered that Ned's bones be returned to the North. He's the one who sent the Lannister guard to "escort" Cleos Frey back to Riverrun. That seems a good indication that he's got some weight in the decision-making process of KL. In any case what's the alternative ? Let Jaime rot in his cell forever instead of trying to use him to make a terrible situation less so ? Great plan.

But that isn't even the alternative. It's clear from the events in the camp that (unlike in the book) Jaime was not going to live out the night. If Catelyn doesn't free him, she reasonably believes that he'll be killed and her daughters in KL will be murdered in retaliation.

Edited by I'm no Ser

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But that isn't even the alternative. It's clear from the events in the camp that (unlike in the book) Jaime was not going to live out the night. If Catelyn doesn't free him, she reasonably believes that he'll be killed and her daughters in KL will be murdered in retaliation.

I was talking about the books.

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Since Catelyn has no idea where or in what condition her daughters are in, and Catelyn has no idea who is in charge at King's Landing, releasing Jaime Lannister had three definite results and one completely speculative result:

1. She returned their most deadly one-on-one combatant to the enemy during the war

2. She ensured dissension within her oldest son and liege lord's camp

3. She took Brienne, one of the best and loyalest warriors out of action and then the speculation

4. One or more of her daughters is alive and one or more of her daughters will be released by the good hearts at Kings Landing.

Just think about this. If you were banking your hopes on Tyrion's good feelings to counteract the evil of Jeff and Cersei, when Jaime returned to King's Landing he would be an ally of Cersei, as always, and tip the balance in the favor of the bad Lannisters. She might as well release Jaime "hoping" that he would be moved by that act of kindness and magnamity and suddenly become the compassionate conservative we knew lurked beneath the facade of a merciless killer of 10 year olds. Reedickless is about the most one can say for that "reasoning."

1. It's one guy. Jaime's great but he's not God. He can't single-handedly turn around the course of the war. Sansa on the other hand is the heir to Winterfell and the North when Catelyn frees Jaime.

2. She told Robb she would accept any punishment (even death if I'm not mistaken). Since he had just screwed up royally himself by breaking his word to the Freys he chose not to do anything about it. He's also the one who chose to behead Lord Karstark. He could have taken him prisoner instead.

3. Brienne does not serve Robb. She serves Catelyn. She never took part in any of Robb's campaigns, and would have likely remained at Cat's side during the battles anyway.

4. It would never have been a problem if Robb had been smart enough to make the exchange when he was still winning. A slim chance is better than no chance at all.

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OK. Its possible...look at Harry Potter...I just pity Hodor having to carry a 6 foot tall 250 lb Bran.

Bran isnt going anywhere.

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Didnt she kill a fat boy in KL (at least in the book)?

Yes her first kill was a stableboy in the fighting after Robert died

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Yes, the stable boy. When she was fleeing the red keep and came upon the wagon that she was supposed to leave in. She found all her father's men dead. She found her chest and found needle in it, then the boy came and said he was going to get the guards. She stabbed him in the belly. Pretty sure they showed that in the 1st season too.

You could say the Harrenhal guard was her first premeditated murder.

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I liked when Jaqen said "please" to Arya. Meant she really had him by the short ones.

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Everything about that performance was AAA. He sold the depth of his commitment in a few words and looks. Maise is excellent, and they have paired her with two great actors this season.

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1. It's one guy. Jaime's great but he's not God. He can't single-handedly turn around the course of the war.

Jaime is the one of the very few things in the world that Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin all care about, yuo bet your ass not having him to hold over their heads is gonna change the way the Lannisters are willing to fight this war.

2. She told Robb she would accept any punishment (even death if I'm not mistaken). Since he had just screwed up royally himself by breaking his word to the Freys he chose not to do anything about it. He's also the one who chose to behead Lord Karstark. He could have taken him prisoner instead.

Catelyn isn't exactly a nobody herself you know. killing her would have lost him the Freys in addition the entirety of Riverlands.

4. It would never have been a problem if Robb had been smart enough to make the exchange when he was still winning. A slim chance is better than no chance at all.

It's not a matter of this or no chance at all. for god's sake CATELYN HERSELF ADMITS THAT THEY ONLY WAY TO GET THE GIRLS BACK IS THROUGH WINNING THE WAR. She's the one that put Robb in this mindset in the first place, not anyone else. And she was right.

Edited by DurararaFTW

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4. It would never have been a problem if Robb had been smart enough to make the exchange when he was still winning. A slim chance is better than no chance at all.

If you negotiated like Catelyn, you would concede my points now, and hope that I later conceded yours.

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Bran isnt going anywhere.

Really? I thought he had a march from Winterfell to north of the Wall to undertake.

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Ok so I've come to the conclusion that this tv series is only going to be three seasons. The Red Wedding is no longer a part of the plans. Not in relation to the books anyway. So all those complaining about missing the weasel soup is small potatoes. I figured out as soon as Arya was the cupbearer for Tywin that this was not going to happen. My prediction is that Loras goes down to Kings Landing and Tywin goes to kill Robb. Perhaps Robb will marry Talisia and then Tywin will kill Robb and Catlyn with help from some treachery by Roose.

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All Stannis's men are on ship instead of split up between land and water attack. I was trying to figure out how they were going to play it since Storms End has been erased from the story. I don't understand why Davos brings Melisandre to give birth to what all the readers would see as under Storms End. He rows her to a spot with the iron bars blocking the way and she gives birth. This doesn't make sense since Renly is camped out in the open and not in some castle where they could have bars blocking the way. Not to mention that there is no purpose of taking Melisandre anywhere to give birth since the whole reason this was done was that the spells were to strong at Storms Ends walls. Anyway it seems to me that since all of Stannis's men are on ship they are setting it up for Tyrion to be the great mastermind that destroys his army in the river with some help from Loras(Renlys ghost).

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They really made Tywin dumb. He figures out Arya is smart and a highborn girl of the North. Somehow he doesn't figure out that this girl of Aryas age that was incognito is Arya. I guess he figures she is some other highborn girl of the north. He must think she is an Umber or Karstark because they are known as being so brilliant :( Honestly when he discovered that she was highborn last week i thought he was stating that he knew who she was but now he just leaves her with the Mountain. Your guess on this one would have to be as good or better than mine.

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Ok so I've come to the conclusion that this tv series is only going to be three seasons. The Red Wedding is no longer a part of the plans. Not in relation to the books anyway. So all those complaining about missing the weasel soup is small potatoes. I figured out as soon as Arya was the cupbearer for Tywin that this was not going to happen. My prediction is that Loras goes down to Kings Landing and Tywin goes to kill Robb. Perhaps Robb will marry Talisia and then Tywin will kill Robb and Catlyn with help from some treachery by Roose.

I still have faith that they are trying to stay on the course of the books as much as possible. I see no reason why they would cut the Red Wedding. It was an integral part of the story. A huge catalyst. In my mind, I can't imagine them not showing the Red Wedding. That was one of the biggest scenes in the story so far. The producers have said they plan on 9 seasons total. I will be disappointed if it gets canceled before then. (so far I don't think it will) I believe the whole reason they had Arya be Tywin's cupbearer, is so they could cut out the whole running away after the attack on the Night's watch recruits, and eventually getting captured, then her life at Harrenhal, then her overthrowing the Lannister men and becoming Roose's cupbearer, then escaping. They just condensed it and put Roose still at Robb's side. They will either have Roose go with Robb and Catelyn to the wedding and go from there, or have him meet up there after some other task. They haven't showed Riverrun and the Tully's yet, but I'm sure they have time to do that....... OR, my own opinion.... they will possibly make The Red Wedding the wedding between Roose and Fat Walda... maybe? But I believe that the BlackFish will be important later on... so we will see how they will handle that. I do no see how Arya being Tywin's cupbearer is going to change the Red Wedding all that much.

All Stannis's men are on ship instead of split up between land and water attack. I was trying to figure out how they were going to play it since Storms End has been erased from the story. I don't understand why Davos brings Melisandre to give birth to what all the readers would see as under Storms End. He rows her to a spot with the iron bars blocking the way and she gives birth. This doesn't make sense since Renly is camped out in the open and not in some castle where they could have bars blocking the way. Not to mention that there is no purpose of taking Melisandre anywhere to give birth since the whole reason this was done was that the spells were to strong at Storms Ends walls. Anyway it seems to me that since all of Stannis's men are on ship they are setting it up for Tyrion to be the great mastermind that destroys his army in the river with some help from Loras(Renlys ghost).

I agree that it was a little confusing, they meshed the two shadow babies. They probably should have put Renly in the castle or something.... but.... I don't think the average viewer really paid that much attention to that part. They just saw them go into some secret place, birth the shadow baby, and then they see the scene with Renly being killed by the shadow baby. It was a little fuddled to us who have read the books, but we understood what was going on none the less. It would have been more confusing to add the story about Edric Storm and the Castellan. And for Stannis' men all being on ship... it looks like they are doing a medieval version of the landing at Normandy ala Saving Private Ryan.

They really made Tywin dumb. He figures out Arya is smart and a highborn girl of the North. Somehow he doesn't figure out that this girl of Aryas age that was incognito is Arya. I guess he figures she is some other highborn girl of the north. He must think she is an Umber or Karstark because they are known as being so brilliant :( Honestly when he discovered that she was highborn last week i thought he was stating that he knew who she was but now he just leaves her with the Mountain. Your guess on this one would have to be as good or better than mine.

I also had problems with Tywin having Arya so close. To me, I think Tywin is too clever, and would have found out who she was. To her credit she claimed to be from Barrowton, which is semi believable. I love the books, and I wish they could do the story exactly how it is written, but I understand a lot of the changes they have had to make. Some I don't understand. But I am still thoroughly enjoying the HBO series, and can't believe the series is almost over. :(

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Ok so I've come to the conclusion that this tv series is only going to be three seasons. The Red Wedding is no longer a part of the plans. Not in relation to the books anyway. So all those complaining about missing the weasel soup is small potatoes. I figured out as soon as Arya was the cupbearer for Tywin that this was not going to happen. My prediction is that Loras goes down to Kings Landing and Tywin goes to kill Robb. Perhaps Robb will marry Talisia and then Tywin will kill Robb and Catlyn with help from some treachery by Roose.

What in seven hells makes you think that's going to happen? No I highly doubt they will pass up the Red Wedding, and D&D have said they are going for 9 seasons, that's their goal, I don't know how you see only 3.

@ "Arbor Gold I'm Sold"

How can you be so sure Tywin "knows" Arya is a highborn Northern girl? Obviously he assumed she was, but she gave a good answer for why she is educated, and why she knows how to talk properly("because her mother served Lady Dustin for many years, and her mother taught her how to speak"), so Tywin may not think that, like you think he does.

Also, as far as Tywin knows, Arya is in the Capital with Cersei, he was never informed that she escaped, so why would he think his cupbearer is Arya Stark? Not to mention, it took a crazy turn of events for Arya to get to Harrenhall, nobody would ever guess that's where she is, because it's that unlikely. They would assume that if she were ever captured, she would say who she is, at the risk of being treated like a lowborn smallfolk.

So in my opinion, if you think about it, it's not absurd at all, that Tywin doesn't know who she is.

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1. It's one guy. Jaime's great but he's not God. He can't single-handedly turn around the course of the war. Sansa on the other hand is the heir to Winterfell and the North when Catelyn frees Jaime. 2. She told Robb she would accept any punishment (even death if I'm not mistaken). Since he had just screwed up royally himself by breaking his word to the Freys he chose not to do anything about it. He's also the one who chose to behead Lord Karstark. He could have taken him prisoner instead. 3. Brienne does not serve Robb. She serves Catelyn. She never took part in any of Robb's campaigns, and would have likely remained at Cat's side during the battles anyway. 4. It would never have been a problem if Robb had been smart enough to make the exchange when he was still winning. A slim chance is better than no chance at all.

Jaime is INCREDIBLY important. More important than Sansa.

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Arya is in King's Landing. That is what Tywin has been told. Tyrion thought that when he arrived in KL, and he made a point to say how little communication they've had. Why would he think Cersei was lying to him?

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