[BOOK SPOILERS] Small differences beteween books and show that radically alter a character.

[Caro99]

- What they've done to Sandor: there's none of the hot rage and emotionally troubled man in the show. and it's sad that after the blackwater and rory's audition the show hasn't "allowed" book sandor to come out a little more. it can be remedied in S3 but they've taken out so many things from the first 2 books about his "ordeals" which is quite sad...

- the way LF was portrayed this season. in S1 the changes they amde from the book to the show with his character were great, but now we saw him messing up in the 1st episode, and they took out the element of surprise in revealing his intentions to sansa.if they show dontos next season that story plot will be quite diffrent...

- I liked Balon Greyjoy after S2. in the books i got bored with theon's return to pyke but the actor who played balon make me enjoy watching the iron isles scenes.

- arya being tywin's cupbearer. apart from making me warm to tywin which i shouldn't knowing what happens later, it just got a bit boring to see these 2 great characters "bonding" only to have tywin leaving arya in harrenhal. in the show at least to me it almost came across as if tywin enjoyed arya's remarks so much and her mysterious past that he would actually take her along to KL.

- the weight not killing sam. i adore sam but really, he would never get out of that situation in the books if he just hides waiting for all the others and weights to pass by...

- the whole talisa from volantis issue wasn't good.

- regarding shae, i couldn't hep but like her now. sansa is my favorite character and even if she would never have trusted her servant as much in the books, it does look like that in S3 things are going to be complicating for shae/sansa/tyrion, and that will only add more drama and pain to sansa's story when she learns that her friend was actually tyrion's whore. she will think that shae was only spying on her the whole time maybe, so i think those will be some intresting scenes which will come up later on...

[Teren_Kanan]

Everything they've done with Jon.

Just.. everything.

Book Jon is recruited by Qhorin because he's a Stark with a Direwolf, and the name Stark still has power beyond the wall. The mission is to gather information about the wildings.

TV Jon volunteers to go. His Stark heritage nor his Direwolf are really brought into it. The mission is to sneak in and kill people.

Jon who idolizes his father Ned Stark, volunteering to assassinate people? It's one thing for him to do this in the middle of an information gathering mission, when it's kill or be discovered and killed, and quite another to volunteer to go slit peoples throats in the dark from the get go (something he can't even bring himself to do in the books).

Every damn Noob thing from that point on that Jon does is just awful. Going on a Merry chase after Ygritte. TV Jon quite literally gets EVERYONE KILLED! He makes a huge mistake and Qhorin and the rest all have to die because of it. Qhorin even gives him a look and an attitude like he's a piece of crap. He then kills Qhorin while angry, without being straight "ordered" to do it. Yes, the TV show did enough to show that Qhorin wanted it that way, but not enough to show Jon's inner turmoil over it. Then he does the killing blow without Ghost intervening, and while angry about having his mother insulted.. Just awful.

I could go on, but whatever.

[The Spoony Bard]

I agree that TV Jon is considerably different than Book Jon, and not in a good way.

My biggest complaint was Arya having Jaqen kill the Tickler. It's going to deprive us of one of the best scenes in the series when Arya meets the Tickler at the inn. "Where's the gold?"

[WhynotWinnie]

Dear showrunners,

Please redeem my favorite character in season 3! Get Jon Snow back on track! :/

Jon Snow's storyline changes made me crazy! I did enjoy some of the segments (Crasters Keep, the banter between Ygritte and Jon) but I knew how good it could have been.

I think the changes diminished his character on the show.

I got hooked watching GoT in season 1, then I read the 1st and 2nd book (In the midst of #3 now)

Jon's POVs/storyline have been my favorite to read and to watch, but season 2-arg! It was a disappointment because changes that were made mattered so much.

This has been said many times, but Jon came across like a bumbling goofball running around in the ice....making silly choices.

I think Jon's POV chapters depend so much on an internal dialogue and that can be difficult to show on a tv show, but all they just needed to include an extra 5-10 mins of Qhorin and Jon talking!

Just a thought....part of me feels the writers wanted the audience to question Jon's motives. Perhaps season 3 will clear that "doubt" up. Perhaps season 3 will directly address Jon's intentions/internal thoughts through other means? a dream? a memory? Who knows?

Thanks for letting me rant!I just discovered this site and I am really enjoying it.

I love these books and I love this awesome show!

[7V3N]

I think Jon's POV chapters depend so much on an internal dialogue and that can be difficult to show on a tv show, but all they just needed to include an extra 5-10 mins of Qhorin and Jon talking!

That's pushing it. They really only needed one minute.

Jon and Qhorin are pushed back to the cave and you hear Rattleshirts bones clanking and some wildling shouts (or along those lines) and Qhorin grabs Jon and says, "Listen Snow! There's no way out, we can't outrun them. Both of us dead does us no good. They know I would never turn. But you- a bastard, an outcast, a boy who joined the Watch too young and now realizes what he gave up. It must be you. They'll want to test you, check your loyalty. There's only one way. I'm as good as dead, you have to do it. Sleep with them, laugh with them, be one of them. Fight with them if you have to. We need to know what Mance Rayder is up to-for the good of the realm. (Hears the wildlings and sees shadows on the wall of the cave) And now my watch has ended." Then the wildlings show up and the fight goes down.

I could see the dialogue taking no more than 2 minutes. Damn. I liked that. Maybe I should write for the show :P

[WhynotWinnie]

The Shadow Fox----->Yes! Yes! Yes! This!

That is all I wanted.... :)

[Chaircat Meow]

I'm a bit surprised people are discussing Jon Snow in this thread. Its not like small differences altered his character into Jon Show. As of this season the differences were big.

There are loads of them.

Being a complete fool at Craster's rather than handling himself well and thoughtfully as in the books. Jon Snow has obviously been paying attention to Ned because he mentions how Ned treats his bannermen when talking to Mormont about Craster. In the show Jon seems to know nothing about leadership and has no discretion.

He acts like he's scared of Craster and panics when Sam brings Gilly to him, whereas he talked to Gilly himself in the books, where he was a bit more sympathetic I think.

Begging to go with Qhorin and boasting in front of Mormont and everybody else. In the book Jon does tell Benjen he is ready to be a ranger initially, although that was because he didn't want his uncle to leave him. He also said he was better than all the other boys he was training with. That was arrogant but actually true. So what he does in the books is more arrogant and boastful than he was even at the start of GoT.

Gets called an idiot all the time. In the books Mormont admitted he was growing up by telling Qhorin he was 'still half a boy,' and no one thinks he is a fool or stupid.

In the books Jon was naive but intense and thoughtful when he was with Qhorin. He didn't make an idiot of himself. In the show, in epsiode six, the conversation Jon and Qhorin have just shows Jon being an arrogant, dim witted fool the whole time. He is semi-combative, with Qhorin, insisting he is of the north, comes out with stupid ideas, like ranging at night, and carelessly says he is glad to gives his life, without having thought about it. Qhorin calls him dumb whereas he had some respect for him in the books.

In the show he doesn't really spare Ygritte like he did in the books. He bottles the execution but its an instinctual thing rather than the product of at least some thought. Unlike the book, he has no clue what he is doing.

Chasing Ygritte is the dumbest thing ever, as is dragging her around. Does he want Qhorin to kill her when he gets back to the rangers? If not he might as well let Ygritte go straight away as releasing her near Qhorin would surely be more dangerous. These are the actions of someone who is not just naive about the world but thick and stupid because he can't think through situations under his own nose.

Regardless of when Jon cottoned onto Qhorin's plan it is clear he was goaded into killing him and did the deed partly in anger. After one jibe about his mother and father. Why does anybody like this guy. He's a horrible character.

I think that's it, but given that's practically every scene I think it is would be rather more enlightening to list the times when Jon Show is actually acting like the book character, although I suspect the list would be short.

There weren't so many differences in the first season, although he was less darkly humorous and intelligent than the book character and lacked his puts-downs to Theon and Alliser. He was also less demonstrative, although it might have looked weird for a 20 year old to nearly burst into tears or to jump around on tables. His personality was more flat and subdued in the show, his anger more quiet and he was less bright.

The scene where he flees the wall and is taken back by his friends is the most significantly different though. In the show he comes out as pretty dumb and his actions seem the product of thoughtlessness because it looks like he is persuaded to return by Sam and the others reciting the vows, a position he would seem to have rejected following Aemon's talk. In the books, although he was touched by his friends, he only went back under duress and was persuaded to give up further escape attempts by Mormont emphasizing the importance of the NW to protecting the realm, which is actually a very different argument to the one Aemon and Sam used. In the show he seems to have already made the decision to stay by accepting longclaw back from Sam. In other words, in the show, a two minute conversation changes his mind whereas in the book Mormont persuades him using a different argument to the one his friends put to him and which he had rejected when he first decided to desert. The change makes him look like a thoughtless airhead.

Basically D & D totally killed Jon Snow. Sure, the other character they came up with works but he is a humourless, dopey, doofus of a man and his storyline is just pure comedy as everyone laughs at him.

[Ser Arthur Robert]

I agree that TV Jon is considerably different than Book Jon, and not in a good way.

My biggest complaint was Arya having Jaqen kill the Tickler. It's going to deprive us of one of the best scenes in the series when Arya meets the Tickler at the inn. "Where's the gold?"

Also Arya not killing the guard, and organizing the escape makes me wonder where they are going with her. Those killings mold the person she becomes, and I like the person she becomes. Also, what about "weasel soup"? Instead we get chit-chat between Arya and Tywin.

I agree that they made a mess of Jon Snow, the relationship between Jon and Halfhand should not have been left out. Never even mind leaving out the warging.

[Chelly]

That's pushing it. They really only needed one minute. Jon and Qhorin are pushed back to the cave and you hear Rattleshirts bones clanking and some wildling shouts (or along those lines) and Qhorin grabs Jon and says, "Listen Snow! There's no way out, we can't outrun them. Both of us dead does us no good. They know I would never turn. But you- a bastard, an outcast, a boy who joined the Watch too young and now realizes what he gave up. It must be you. They'll want to test you, check your loyalty. There's only one way. I'm as good as dead, you have to do it. Sleep with them, laugh with them, be one of them. Fight with them if you have to. We need to know what Mance Rayder is up to-for the good of the realm. (Hears the wildlings and sees shadows on the wall of the cave) And now my watch has ended." Then the wildlings show up and the fight goes down.

I could see the dialogue taking no more than 2 minutes. Damn. I liked that. Maybe I should write for the show :P

This is awesome. :bowdown: It is too bad they couldn't have you handle the Jon and Qhorin stuff in season 2. This is so much better than how they played it on the show. I'm not really a book purist and I love the show for what it is, but I can't get over how Jon got screwed in the show and that terrible but wonderful character-defining moment when he has to kill the Halfhand. The show really flubbed on such a pivotal part of Jon's growth as a character. :thumbsdown:

Also Arya not killing the guard, and organizing the escape makes me wonder where they are going with her. Those killings mold the person she becomes, and I like the person she becomes. Also, what about "weasel soup"? Instead we get chit-chat between Arya and Tywin.

I agree on this one as well. I was very disappointed when Arya did not kill the guard. She already killed the boy from season one, so why would they shy away from her killing somebody else? It only bothers me because it is integral to show how easily she kill a man which is important since her story involves her becoming an assassin in training.

[birdsong66]

In Robb's defence, as far as he's aware, his own father committed adultery during Robert's rebellion - and in his own words he was 'the best of men' - leading to a bastard who would be a stone around his mothers neck, and would end up condemned to a life on the wall.

Bolding mine: While TVRobb and Talisa were casually walking around, Robb was waxing poetic about Ned, and he specifically stated that he understood that Ned felt as a Great Lord, he was a father to everyone within his realm, and that he also felt that responsibility. So when he turns his back on an oath sworn to the Freys, whether he wanted to uphold it or not, he is turning his back on his own people, his own realm, and the seat he holds as King. That the bargin was made between Catelyn and Frey is irrelevant, as once Robb crossed the Twins, he, with the physical act of crossing alone, swore to uphold the bargin. Moreover, The scene outlines specifically exactly why Ned was the "best of men," and why, pre/post-elopement, Robb is not. How he feels is incidental to the whole. Thus, it serves nothing but to damage TVRobb as a character for choosing love/lust over responsibility to the greater realm. In short, the change alters the character in an unnecessary way, regardless of the RW.

There is no need to make TVRobb more or less likable, and yet it seems that D and D have chosen to go the less likable route, but to what end I can't really fathom. YMMV.

As for betrayals, TVCat betrayed TVRobb, yes, but it was in the service of preventing a Karstark betrayal, one, and in the service of love, much like TVRobb, for her daughters. I've never understood the idea that love, be it book or show, works as an excuse for everyone, save Catelyn.

Ultimately, there are significant changes to characters through the course of adaptation, as is to be expected. Some simply come off worse than expected, but altogether true to the vision of those performing the adaptation. In this, I wish, personally, that the characters D and D do not care for were not quite so obvious. it's a nitpick.

[7V3N]

The difference of Arya's killing of the guard was that it was her first real kill. All the other ones (with Yoren, and the KL stableboy) were self-defense. The guard was no threat to her. He was a threat to her personal goal (escaping Harrenhal). This was the first Arya kill that we can say "poor guy.." Also, it is the first kill where we begin to worry about what this girl is becoming.

Instead, the show kept her as an innocent girl just trying to find home, benefiting from some mysterious heroes on the way (Syrio, Yoren, Jaqen, even Tywin). The books make her a girl who will do anything to get back home, and learns to survive on her own.

[winterbird]

I think the one that bother's me most is the change with Sandor (The Hound) not telling Sansa about his burns himself. I don't know if they have Baelish telling her to build up a bit of trust between the two characters or what. But I think Baelish was played up with Sansa WAY too much and Sandor was played way down. In the book it makes sense when he goes to her room after Blackwater since they had a lot of interaction in the show, but in the show it's a little far fetched.

And the Arya arc. I think we should of seen more of her being Arry, Weasle, Lumpyhead, Nan, the mouse, the ghost etc. and less of her being with the wrong people. The Tywin/Arya scenes are GREAT don't get me wrong, but not at all like the book. And then the fact that they "borrowed" conversations from other story arcs in later books between different characters to fill in Arya and Tywin's dialogue makes me wonder how down played those scenes will be in the future (but I guess that's years down the road now for HBO since the next book is two seasons or something)... I would have liked to see her kill the guard and make some weasle soup....

ETA: they changed Shae too much... I can see making her Sansa's maid early because they basically skipped over Lollys, but I think that Shae should have talked more about wearing pretty things and having pretty jewels. In the show I was questioning whether she was "just a whore." I think it really changes who she is.

[protar]

I think the one that bother's me most is the change with Sandor (The Hound) not telling Sansa about his burns himself. I don't know if they have Baelish telling her to build up a bit of trust between the two characters or what. But I think Baelish was played up with Sansa WAY too much and Sandor was played way down. In the book it makes sense when he goes to her room after Blackwater since they had a lot of interaction in the show, but in the show it's a little far fetched.

In all fairness I believe they tried to film this, but something went wrong in shooting so there was no time for the proper scene which would've required more set up. It'd would've been good to have a nice little nod to the book scene though, with the Hound about to tell her, but Sansa telling him she already knows.

[winterbird]

That would be nice especially after seeing the Rory McCann audition scene! I really wanted to see this scene! And plenty of others where the Hound interacts with her. I wonder what did go wrong. I mean having him read it for the audition would make it seem like they wanted it in the show. And it's just not as powerful a story when Baelish tells it. We don't get nearly enough of Sandor threatening to kill her too. I wonder what the problem was that they couldn't re-film it. I'd get if they had set up a whole feast scene and they would have to get all the extras and main cast back together etc. to work it. But really, they could have plausibly done the whole thing in a scene with just the two of them later and it would have made a lot more sense than the way they did it. Yes Petyr is a snoop of a spy but where would HE get that information. The fact that LF tells her that story gives us reason to question the truth given what we know about HIM and how truthful he is. I mean of all the choices of people to tell her, I just don't get that scene or the choices they made for it. It really seemed like they were like "We need to fit this back story in, in the shortest amount of time possible without any regard to character credibility." And with so many people around them? I can't remember if it's Arya or Ned sitting next to her when she hears it but if it was Arya, it might change her perception of the Hound and Ned would never allow LF to say such things to his daughter (Sansa isn't naive for no reason. She's been very sheltered.) And telling her in a crowd and then saying "if he hears you mention this, he'll kill you?" is not believable. It makes it sound like a cheap piece of court gossip as opposed to something that is told only to Sansa. I get if they had to redo it, but deviating so much really destroys the moment and of course changes Sansa's reaction to both the Hound and Petyr in addition to changing the Hound's character too. It just really bothers me.

[Stormcatcher]

-I'd add Jaime needlessly strangling a kinsman in his cage. It makes Jaime look more of a murderous loon, which is especially odd when contrasted with his father's pleasant little chats with Arya that make Tywin seem nicer. Makes me wonder if they're trying to screw with viewers heads so that later character development/revelations will come as a greater shock. Personally, I don't understand the sense of it.

-Likewise, Dany shutting Xaro and Doreah in the vault to die a horrible death. In the books, it wasn't until she reached Slaver's Bay that Dany's ruthless side came out, and I liked that aspect of characterisation for her. In the series, this just looks OTT and crazy. As a minor aside, making Xaro straight irritated me.

-Arya asking Jaqen to kill the Tickler. It removes the opportunity for a very revealling moment with her later that shows just how disturbed she's become by all her trauma. Also makes her later plot development make less sense. Tywin's presence in Harrenhal also makes her look a moron for not naming him.

-Jon not choosing to let Ygritte go, and instead bumbling her execution and hesitating. It makes it look like foolish incompetence on his part instead of an act of compassion/chivalry/whatever.

-Robb's relationship with whoever the TV woman is starting early. In the books, he had his cake and ate it too until aSoS. In the series, his great mistake is already coming to light. Like with Jon, it makes him look less competent, though I understand them wanting to flesh out the beginning of his relationship with whoever she is.

[WinterWarrior]

I think the character of Margaery was altered the most, and Littlefinger was more obvious than he is in the books. Also the relationship between Renley and Loras was more developed than in the book. In the case of Littlefinger that had to happen to keep the story on pace. I am not sure why Margaery is so worldly in the HBO series except that she will be an amazing counter force to Cersei once she gets to KL. That is a game I want to see.

When I see Margaery I think of Anne Boleyn from the Showtime "Tudors" series. Same actress. I am waiting for the GOT Margaery to get just as manipulative as the Showtime Anne was....should be interesting.....I have a feeling the showdown between her and Cersei might be accelerated in the HBO series.

[7V3N]

I think the character of Margaery was altered the most, and Littlefinger was more obvious than he is in the books. Also the relationship between Renley and Loras was more developed than in the book. In the case of Littlefinger that had to happen to keep the story on pace. I am not sure why Margaery is so worldly in the HBO series except that she will be an amazing counter force to Cersei once she gets to KL. That is a game I want to see.

When I see Margaery I think of Anne Boleyn from the Showtime "Tudors" series. Same actress. I am waiting for the GOT Margaery to get just as manipulative as the Showtime Anne was....should be interesting.....I have a feeling the showdown between her and Cersei might be accelerated in the HBO series.

Money. Gillen and Dormer are getting paid a good amount, so their characters "demand" more screentime. That means that great attributes/moments from other characters instead go to the "stars" of the show.

[Juliads]

My experience is primarily through the tv series, i just recently started reading the books. I am disappointed with the changes made to the hound for the show. Not just minor changes, but a general lack of presence.

I find Jon snow to be pretty damn irritating on the tv show, not so much in the books. I don't know if it's the actor playing littlefinger, or the scripts being written for him, but i find his book version to be more conniving, less humorous. Joff, Jaime, etc, they've all had changes in being adapted to television, but their plots are more or less the same as in the novels.

[7V3N]

Joff, Jaime, etc, they've all had changes in being adapted to television, but their plots are more or less the same as in the novels.

Except kinslaying. That was pretty out of character.

[Masamune]

All this topic does is remind me how much of a blowout S2 was... :(

And I have a nasty feeling it's only going to have a snowball effect for the rest of its run.