[BOOK SPOILERS] Small differences beteween books and show that radically alter a character.

[7V3N]

Basically with Arya's story, they made it less about her and more about all of the characters around her.

[ServantOnIce]

Not mentioning the name R'hllor, and instead only saying the Lord of Light. R'hllor is unique, shorter than saying "The Lord of Light" every time, and is accepted by maybe 10% of Westeros (by TWoW) and a majority of the East as the only true god.

R'hllor would just bring a bit of uniqueness to the religion, because it is a unique name. If we think R'hllor, it is hard to bring in our predispositions since it is so foreign. But the Lord of Light is something we can try to picture/imagine. It is hard to put this idea into words, but does anyone get what I am saying?

I agree. Everytime I hear, "Lord of Light" I think about Thundarr the Barbarian . . .

[Jolene Brown]

Plus, how are they going to be able to do the "Red Rahloo" joke? That's how I want everyone to refer to R'hllor from now on. I love that line.

[Arctic Cowboy]

How about Brienne killing the guards in Renly's tent? Am I wrong or did she flat out slay 2 guys?in the book, didnt she pretty much just fend off Ser (Cuy?)'s attack until Cat knocked him out with a brazier? Then Ser Robar even let them leave.

It's plain that she knows how to fight, but I specifically recall her reminiscing about her master at arms telling her real combat is not the same as training, including an incident from his youth about a friend who was the yard champion but got killed in basically his first fight because he hesitated to kill, a sentiment Brienne seems to carry around wondering what she'll do when she has to kill.

Her insecurities are a big part of her character and we'll miss out on the emotional drama of her fight at The Whispers if we already see her as a stone cold killer.

Not really a story shattering detail, but it gives her more depth than just being a hardass knight who happens to be a woman.

THIS. i thought her portrayal in the last episode was just really off. when she was killing those men in front of jaime, she looked like a ruthless killing machine, almost inhuman. no wonder show-jaime doesn't call her "wench"; i have a hard time imagining it too.

[7V3N]

Brienne is basically a female version of the Hound in the show.

[Currawong]

Brienne is basically a female version of the Hound in the show.

On the other hand, she was prepared to drop a very large boulder onto a boat of pursuing soldiers, and even thought up the scheme herself! Which could have killed or maimed several of them. But because we didn't get the full river-escape, that wasn't possible, so they have gone with something else, possibly combining things with a later book scene when they discover the hanging corpses. I understand why they did it - will keep an open mind and reserve full judgment about how they are writing Brienne until next season.

[Natalie_S]

I agree with Sandor's role, Talisa, the way Cat set Jaime free, Jaime killing his cousin with that trick, Shae's character.

I was also very bothered by Tyrion's very first scene, in which he's with a whole lot of prostitutes in Winterfell.

In the book he comes across as bookish and largely uninterested in boozing and whoring until he meets Shae (and he says that it was about an year since he last slept with a woman), that captures him (and also in that case he tends to be "monogamous").

I think it's a big simplification of his character that, from the tragic man who thinks that no woman will ever want to sleep with him if not for his money, turns into the party animal who simply likes casual sex.

[Ser Loudmouth]

I was also very bothered by Tyrion's very first scene, in which he's with a whole lot of prostitutes in Winterfell.

In the book he comes across as bookish and largely uninterested in boozing and whoring until he meets Shae (and he says that it was about an year since he last slept with a woman), that captures him (and also in that case he tends to be "monogamous").

I think it's a big simplification of his character that, from the tragic man who thinks that no woman will ever want to sleep with him if not for his money, turns into the party animal who simply likes casual sex.

Yes! yes! I completely agree! Whenever I think o fthat scene, I want to scream: "That's not Tyrion!". It's true that in the books he jokes a lot about visiting whores and whorehouses, but his actual behaviour does not match such words. In realith, we see that Tyrion is a relatively "chaste" character. That kind of orgy is what we would expect from an irresponsible and hedonistic "bad role model" character like King Robert, not from a level-headed one like Tyrion.

[Bride of Winter]

Haven't got the chance to read through this thread so it may have already been said, but Robb marrying Talisa for apparently no reason, and Cat freeing Jaime without anything really to set it off.

I hear so many people going "well he made a dumb decision either way so it's okay". Yes, but that's not the point. I mean if you see Robb as a plot device, then yeah. But as a character, his intentions are what makes him who he is. It doesn't matter if it was still a dumb decision to marry Jeyne in the books, but he thought it was the right thing to do. He was confused and overwhelmed and acted in the way he was brought up because that's all he knew. So maybe you can fault him for making poor decisions, but he definitely doesn't have poor intentions. Just like his "i've won every battle yet somehow I'm losing the war" - he thinks he did everything right, so he has no idea why he just can't win. This contrasts drastically with show!Robb who knows he is doing everything wrong. He has no legitimate reason to marry Talisa, and knows if he does he will literally be putting everything at risk. Yet he does it anyway. So basically, imo, where Robb's "bad decision" in the books further adds to his theme of the tragic boy king, winning every battle but losing in every other way, Robb's "bad decision" in the show couldn't stray further from his character.

On a side note, in the last episode when Cat told Robb how she and Ned grew to love eachother despite the original conditions of their marraige, and Robb basically said fuck that, it really hit a sore spot with me, considering book!Robb married Jeyne without loving her out of what he thought was "duty", and they may have grown to love each other a little (at the very least care about each other). So to me, having Robb say something so out of character really just seemed like the producers intentionally driving the final nail in Book!Robb's coffin, so to speak.

Sorry, rant over. I guess some more include: toning down the darkness of arya's storyline (and getting rid of her chance of killing the tickler), having brienne kill the guards after renly's death instead of loras, not including the bit where qhorin says he didn't need ygritte dead, he just wanted to test jon (instead Jon just comes across as a spectacularly incompetent dumbass who manages to get everyone around him killed)

[7V3N]

On the other hand, she was prepared to drop a very large boulder onto a boat of pursuing soldiers, and even thought up the scheme herself! Which could have killed or maimed several of them. But because we didn't get the full river-escape, that wasn't possible, so they have gone with something else, possibly combining things with a later book scene when they discover the hanging corpses. I understand why they did it - will keep an open mind and reserve full judgment about how they are writing Brienne until next season.

You seem to forget that it destroyed their way to chase her, Jaime, and Cleos. It did not kill them (or at least all of them). They reported back to Riverrun soaked. Brienne is not afraid to defend herself but she is not someone who enjoys killing and would not slowly kill someone just for the sake of it.

[Currawong]

You seem to forget that it destroyed their way to chase her, Jaime, and Cleos. It did not kill them (or at least all of them). They reported back to Riverrun soaked. Brienne is not afraid to defend herself but she is not someone who enjoys killing and would not slowly kill someone just for the sake of it.

Naturally I realise that it destroyed the means of pursuit.

My point was that she was quite prepared to kill, or to cause death/ injury, even if by an unorthodox method. Brienne may seem a little slow, but she is definitely not stupid, and she would have known that dropping a very large boulder from considerable height IS very likely to kill or maim people who just happen to be underneath! :P For all we know (because Jaime and co didn't stay around to find out), some of the soldiers may have been injured as well as wet; given that many of them probably couldn't swim and would have been weighed down by even light armour or padded tunics, some of them could even have drowned.

[Bride of Winter]

Again I agree with this. This wasn't something I had given much thought to either but your totally right. There are just to many reasons why Talisa is out of place that don't even have anything to do with ruining, imo, Robb's arc. Her presence is just to modern. Everything about her is. I don't understand why every show based in a different time period has twenty-first century views thrown in there that just shouldn't be there. It's like I said before, Robb marrying her could in no way shape or form be out of any sort of honor. Someone would have to be out of their mind to try and convince me shy was a maiden before her and Robb's first time. I just don't believe it. Her going around with a camp just rings out that she's a whore. (Or just not a virgin at the very least.) And how can some commoner, by Westeros standards since she's not a highborn from Westeros, just be able to barge in the kings tent or talk down to him all the time? Any other king would chop of a woman, or anyone else's head, who did half the things Talisa did.

on the subject of Talisa being unrealistic, I'd also like to add that there is no way Robb (or at least the one I know in the books) would give her the time of day. The producers are advertising their creation in flashing lights as "the special girl who questions Robb". Now Robb is my favorite character, but if there's one thing he is, it's stubborn. And even immature. I'm not saying a 14 year old should be faulted for being immature, and obviously he's not selfish or intentionally reckless like he is in the show, but he's still young. he has to go day after day trying his best to be the king his bannermen want him to be, with his bannermen questioning his abilities (and initially not trusting him), and his enemies underestimating him, at all times. so not only is the statement that Talisa is the one person who questions him ridiculous, but so is the idea that he would ever willingly put up with (let alone fall in love with) some nobody who's constantly telling him he's running his war wrong. I understand that this show is praised for tackling "modern issues", but you can't insert a modern relationship that makes no freaking sense in context to replace a completely realistic situation in the middle ages just because the latter may be "boring" to casual TV viewers.

[Chaircat Meow]

Naturally I realise that it destroyed the means of pursuit.

My point was that she was quite prepared to kill, or to cause death/ injury, even if by an unorthodox method. Brienne may seem a little slow, but she is definitely not stupid, and she would have known that dropping a very large boulder from considerable height IS very likely to kill or maim people who just happen to be underneath! :P For all we know (because Jaime and co didn't stay around to find out), some of the soldiers may have been injured as well as wet; given that many of them probably couldn't swim and would have been weighed down by even light armour or padded tunics, some of them could even have drowned.

None of this shows that her killing someone 'slowly, for the sake of it,' is not wildly out of character for the very honourable and naive Brienne of the books. As Shadowfox says, she is prepared to defend herself though. If you can't spot the difference here you've got issues.

[Winter In My Heart]

on the subject of Talisa being unrealistic, I'd also like to add that there is no way Robb (or at least the one I know in the books) would give her the time of day. The producers are advertising their creation in flashing lights as "the special girl who questions Robb". Now Robb is my favorite character, but if there's one thing he is, it's stubborn. And even immature. I'm not saying a 14 year old should be faulted for being immature, and obviously he's not selfish or intentionally reckless like he is in the show, but he's still young. he has to go day after day trying his best to be the king his bannermen want him to be, with his bannermen questioning his abilities (and initially not trusting him), and his enemies underestimating him, at all times. so not only is the statement that Talisa is the one person who questions him ridiculous, but so is the idea that he would ever willingly put up with (let alone fall in love with) some nobody who's constantly telling him he's running his war wrong. I understand that this show is praised for tackling "modern issues", but you can't insert a modern relationship that makes no freaking sense in context to replace a completely realistic situation in the middle ages just because the latter may be "boring" to casual TV viewers.

I completely agree with you. Having it a bit modern is one thing but this just screams all out modern that it's ridiculous they did the arc like this. Ugh. I hope they don't screw up anymore characters, add new ridiculous characters, than they already have. (I mean serious why is Ros still around??)

[Le Cygne]

Jaime as a kinslayer. Arya not going through hell and not saying her list again and not practicing swordfighting (callbacks to season 1 and Syrio and Jon Snow) and not learning from Jaqen and not killing the guard. Ygritte escaping rather than Jon choosing to let her go, and Ghost not helping him beat QHH. Dany raging and looting. Cersei not killing the bastards. Joffrey turning on Cersei. Littlefinger's obsession with prostitutes.

My point was that she was quite prepared to kill, or to cause death/ injury, even if by an unorthodox method.

Brienne defending herself is one thing but brutally killing a stranger? And just like killing the Tickler (is there gold in the village?) was both a release for Arya and a sign of how much she had suffered (which they didn't show nearly enough in the show), Brienne killing the men who had brutalized her was the same, and not only for her, but "for Jaime":

He clawed at his belt and came up with a dagger, so Brienne cut his hand off. That one was for Jaime.

"You have two hands." One more than you left Jaime.

"Sapphires," she whispered at him, as she gave her blade a hard twist that made him shudder.

Also having Brienne kill the guards instead of Loras, the scene where Jaime stands between them when Loras accuses her of Renly's murder, which he now inexplicably thinks she didn't do, is not possible.

[7V3N]

Naturally I realise that it destroyed the means of pursuit.

My point was that she was quite prepared to kill, or to cause death/ injury, even if by an unorthodox method. Brienne may seem a little slow, but she is definitely not stupid, and she would have known that dropping a very large boulder from considerable height IS very likely to kill or maim people who just happen to be underneath! :P For all we know (because Jaime and co didn't stay around to find out), some of the soldiers may have been injured as well as wet; given that many of them probably couldn't swim and would have been weighed down by even light armour or padded tunics, some of them could even have drowned.

Yes but my main point remains the same. Brienne is not a killer. She is a knight, a true knight bound by honor. In that, she sees things like torture as immoral. She would not give a man a slow death out of anger or disgust. I do not know if it is the fault of the actress, director, or writers, but the scene was not Brienne. Even her facial expressions show a killer, not the shy, self-conscious, honorable knight that Brienne is. Just check the scene I linked below and watch her face.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fy2VV7I8RJg

ETA: Does this look a woman who would be troubled by the 'Brienne the Beauty' joke?

[Le Cygne]

Does this look a woman who would be troubled by the 'Brienne the Beauty' joke?

Hell no! :) Nobody would have dared tell one, either.

Found this quote:

It may be that I will need to kill him, she told herself one night as she paced about the camp. The notion made her queasy. Her old master-at-arms had always questioned whether she was hard enough for battle. “You have a man’s strength in your arms,” Ser Goodwin had said to her, more than once, “but your heart is as soft as any maid’s. It is one thing to train in the yard with a blunted sword in hand, and another to drive a foot of sharpened steel into a man’s gut and see the light go out of his eyes.” To toughen her, Ser Goodwin used to send her to her father’s butcher to slaughter lambs and suckling pigs. The piglets squealed and the lambs screamed like frightened children. By the time the butchering was done Brienne had been blind with tears, her clothes so bloody that she had given them to her maid to burn. But Ser Goodwin still had doubts.

[Ghost Rider]

Oh, where to start in this thread... Maybe to ask: is there any character on the show not radically altered by some minor (ETA: or larger) changes?

Characters that bear no resemblance to their book counterparts, they seem to be borrowed from another book or show:

- Jon Snow (who is that big incompetent moron with the teddy bear face?)

- Brienne of Tarth (who is that ba killer of a woman?)

- Cersei Lannister (The poor woman! Lost a child by Robert, it has grieved her ever so much)

- Robb Stark (where have you lost your sense of honour, Robb Stark?)

- Shae (Aren't you supposed to be a whore or something?)

little resemblance

- Arya Stark (can someone with these big eyes murder someone? - obviously not!)

- Tyrion Lannister (who would never do anything questionable, no, not him! He is the knight in shining armour, a good hearted fellow who just happens to be ... small.)

- Jaime Lannister (would never have thought, he is some underhanded kinslayer!)

- Catelyn Tully-Stark (dear god, if Ned had only listened to her and stayed home with her and the kids!)

- Tywin Lannister (is there any secret he wouldn't share with his cheeky little cupbearer?)

- Littlefinger (as subtle as a smack against the head)

alright, some may pass: Theon, Dany, Varys, Sam, did I forget someone important?

[7V3N]

alright, some may pass: Theon, Dany, Varys, Sam, did I forget someone important?

Davos. Liam Cunningham has been absolutely EXCELLENT. Cut the ass-clenching Stannis scenes and just give us Davos!

[Chaircat Meow]

Oh, where to start in this thread... Maybe to ask: is there any character on the show not radically altered by some minor (ETA: or larger) changes?

Characters that bear no resemblance to their book counterparts, they seem to be borrowed from another book or show:

- Jon Snow (who is that big incompetent moron with the teddy bear face?)

- Brienne of Tarth (who is that ba killer of a woman?)

- Cersei Lannister (The poor woman! Lost a child by Robert, it has grieved her ever so much)

- Robb Stark (where have you lost your sense of honour, Robb Stark?)

- Shae (Aren't you supposed to be a whore or something?)

little resemblance

- Arya Stark (can someone with these big eyes murder someone? - obviously not!)

- Tyrion Lannister (who would never do anything questionable, no, not him! He is the knight in shining armour, a good hearted fellow who just happens to be ... small.)

- Jaime Lannister (would never have thought, he is some underhanded kinslayer!)

- Catelyn Tully-Stark (dear god, if Ned had only listened to her and stayed home with her and the kids!)

- Tywin Lannister (is there any secret he wouldn't share with his cheeky little cupbearer?)

- Littlefinger (as subtle as a smack against the head)

alright, some may pass: Theon, Dany, Varys, Sam, did I forget someone important?

I agree with all these, although I'm slightly less bothered about Jaime.

In some cases its a real shame because, imo, they really have the actors to pull of the role, like in the case of Brienne, Tywin, Arya, Tyrion, Littlefinger etc.

Its the change to Shae that really flattens out Tyrion's insecurities imo.

I'm less bothered about Jon because, like you, I think he just looks too wrong (and too old) for the role anyway. They didn't have to make it a truly perfect storm though by writing him as a clown!

Dany is an interesting one because I think she has been very out of character this season as regards where she was in Clash. You can see some of her behaviour this season in the book character of Thrones and Storm though. The insistence her enemies will all die screaming for instance or the desire to punish without really ascertaining the facts. I do think the actual Dany would be more cut up about the whole Doreah issue and wouldn't have gone around looking so smug after she left her to die though. So that ranked as a fair change for me.

And Sam is a bit different. He doesn't whine about being a coward all the time, he is very chipper and natters about girls the whole time. He's passable though I agree.