[Book Spoilers] R.I.P -- Lord Ramsay Snow -- Theon's Exit

[mcb]

They can't omit him, because they can't omit a regular like Alfie Allen for an entire season.

Sure they can. If David Duchovny could disappear for a season from X-Files, certainly Alfie Allen can disappear from GOT for a time.

[scurvy]

I expect that Ramsay will kill the Ironborn so they can tell no tales after a fine banquet with ale and wine and claim that they put Winterfell to the torch when they defended it against his attack. At the same time he will spread the word that Theon killed Bran and Rickon in order to fill that gap in the storyline. Of course Sansa isn't heir to Winterfell unless the boys are dead and she doesn't become Lady of Winterfell upon Robb's death unless the boys are dead. So, Tywin arranging her marriage doesn't make sense unless Roose tells Tywin of the boys' deaths.

[The Monkey]

Aye, they are postponing the reveal of the Bolton treason for another season.

[Man in the Black]

I really liked the Theon scenes in the finale. Sure it departs from the book but they are well acted and constructed scenes, especially the speech which had me laughing my ass off.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

Aye, they are postponing the reveal of the Bolton treason for another season.

Yeah why cast someone for one scene when you can introduce him next season and get theons story picking up fast. Hope they have Theons story next season. Best way to show the Bolton betraying Robb is through Theon the first guy betraying Robb and once you see the difference between the two it gives Theon a lot more empathy.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

For me, the problem is, is that if the Ironborn were to be set free after giving Theon up to "the bastard," then why the eff is Winterfell burning? That is a question my non-reader friends asked.

It didn't make sense.

"Wait, they gave up Theon, and then still fought the Northmen? Is that why Winterfell is in ruins?"

.

Would it have been SO DIFFICULT to have Lewin tell Osha this? As it was, he warned her of enemies. Why not throw in an "EVEN NORTHMEN! THE BASTARD OF BOLTON HAS TAKEN WINTERFELL, UNKNOWN TO ROBB."

Instead it's "Kill me, quickly."

That was really stupid.

That bit of knowledge would keep tv watchers in suspense, waiting for and hating Ramsay, before he's even seen onscreen.

But no. Now they are left with "Derp dee derp. Winterfell is ruined...because it just is. Derp de derp."

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

For me, the problem is, is that if the Ironborn were to be set free after giving Theon up to "the bastard," then why the eff is Winterfell burning? That is a question my non-reader friends asked.

It didn't make sense.

"Wait, they gave up Theon, and then still fought the Northmen? Is that why Winterfell is in ruins?"

.

Would it have been SO DIFFICULT to have Lewin tell Osha this? As it was, he warned her of enemies. Why not throw in an "EVEN NORTHMEN! THE BASTARD OF BOLTON HAS TAKEN WINTERFELL, UNKNOWN TO ROBB."

Instead it's "Kill me, quickly."

That was really stupid.

That bit of knowledge would keep tv watchers in suspense, waiting for and hating Ramsay, before he's even seen onscreen.

But no. Now they are left with "Derp dee derp. Winterfell is ruined...because it just is. Derp de derp."

Derp Derp indeed for anyone who read the books. But for non-book readers it was a great cliff hanger I bet. If you friends were asking you who burned winterfell? Then that is a good mystery for them for next season. Or it will make them read the books. Plus I really think they want the Red Wedding to creep up and surprise the viewers. If non-book readers already knew that Robbs second in command's son burned winterfell they would know next season hes gonna get fucked.

I think they are just trying in all ways possible to keep the Red Wedding a secret in the show. Plus Ramsey is so goddamn evil the guy doesn't need any build up.

[Mulled Wino]

I'm glad we can get rid off that pathetic Dagmer=Ramsay theory. Horrible.

This. Astonishingly people are still tryig with it in this very thread.

[HalfAGroat]

2) On the other hand, the very final moments of his last scene rang utterly false. I suppose we're to take it that Dagmer and Lorren and the others had already planned to sell out Theon. But their cheering him? That's a bit too much. What's he going to do if they stare stonily at him, waiting for him to shut up? That's for the audience, and doesn't feel real and organic. I found it jarringly false.

I'm not so sure that the others would have been in on the plan to sell out Theon. Dagmer and Lorren probably would have made this plan on their own, without informing the rank and file; the less people that know, the better. As far as the cheering, Dagmer said it best: "it was a good speech."

[Reposado]

For me, the problem is, is that if the Ironborn were to be set free after giving Theon up to "the bastard," then why the eff is Winterfell burning? That is a question my non-reader friends asked.

possibly, they gave up theon thinking that ramsay would honor his promise, and then he murdered them anyways once they had no walls.

but i'm not sure how they show theon's torture. will they spread 4-5 scenes over the next three season? that's what they'd be keeping alfie allen on for

[Mulled Wino]

For me, the problem is, is that if the Ironborn were to be set free after giving Theon up to "the bastard," then why the eff is Winterfell burning? That is a question my non-reader friends asked.

It didn't make sense.

"Wait, they gave up Theon, and then still fought the Northmen? Is that why Winterfell is in ruins?"

.

Why does the viewer have to know? It sets up a surprise behinning that can be discussed from now until the next season. Makes perfect sense actually. They dont have to tie up all the lose ends, which is something else that makes this series close to unique.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

Why does the viewer have to know? It sets up a surprise behinning that can be discussed from now until the next season. Makes perfect sense actually. They dont have to tie up all the lose ends, which is something else that makes this series close to unique.

Exactly, no better way to start season 3 then showing the sacking of winterfell. Sets up the viewers for a season filled with a storm of swords.

[green_caitlin]

"Pathetic Dagmer=Ramsay theory". Yes, it is pathetic. But the final scene with Theon and his men was even more pathetic, and somehow I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out Dagmar really is Ramsay. Anything is possible in this 'adaptation'.

They (I mean the screenwriters, not the Ironborn :/) could've handled it in so many different ways, but they chose the most absurd one. I'd been expecting, for instance, to see Roose Bolton (since we haven't met Ramsay so far and I hadn't thought they'd introduce him at the end of this series) storm Winterfell, fight Theon's man, defeat them and capture Greyjoy. Wouldn't it be surprising enough (at least, for a person who hasn't read the book?). But no, instead we had to see the grotesque 'speech scene'. Are these the same Ironborn Martin wrote about?

I may be wrong, but I have the impression that they just didn't want to spend money to show us the battle at Winterfell, so they changed the ending.

Sorry for being so emotional, but I've never felt so angry since I started watching the series. Theon's story is a well-written one and now I feel it's being wasted.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Why does the viewer have to know? It sets up a surprise behinning that can be discussed from now until the next season. Makes perfect sense actually. They dont have to tie up all the lose ends, which is something else that makes this series close to unique.

Why? It sets in motion a hatred before a character is even cast. With one sentence, an entire plot line is known without using precious screen time next season. Next season starts with people knowing exactly who Ramsay is.

Now, there's going to be a 10 minute dialogue between Ramsay and a whore in at least 8 different episodes about his exploits, and then a 2 minute Red Wedding. If there even is a Red Wedding, because the writers may decide to kill off all of Robb's men before it even takes place. They all get eaten by alligators that Mel saw in the flames after Stannis choked her, or some other bullshit like that. Maybe they all turn to rabbit's and the explanation is "Oh, well, it's 3pm."

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

Why? It sets in motion a hatred before a character is even cast. With one sentence, an entire plot line is known without using precious screen time next season. Next season starts with people knowing exactly who Ramsay is.

Now, there's going to be a 10 minute dialogue between Ramsay and a whore in at least 8 different episodes about his exploits, and then a 2 minute Red Wedding. If there even is a Red Wedding, because the writers may decide to kill off all of Robb's men before it even takes place. They all get eaten by alligators that Mel saw in the flames after Stannis choked her, or some other bullshit like that. Maybe they all turn to rabbit's and the explanation is "Oh, well, it's 3pm."

I understand but think about it this way. Jaime Lannister we are supposed to hate then he becomes a character we start to enjoy. Ramsey could be the oppoisite effect when first introduce he could seem not to bad but by the end of the episode he does something like burning winterfell to the ground that it suprises and angers you and you think well he still might have some redeming quailties....then we get to see the next 3 seasons of torture and rape. Acctually seeing him do something rather then hearing Luwin say it gives more depth to his character.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I understand but think about it this way. Jaime Lannister we are supposed to hate then he becomes a character we start to enjoy. Ramsey could be the oppoisite effect when first introduce he could seem not to bad but by the end of the episode he does something like burning winterfell to the ground that it suprises and angers you and you think well he still might have some redeming quailties....then we get to see the next 3 seasons of torture and rape. Acctually seeing him do something rather then hearing Luwin say it gives more depth to his character.

We saw Joff as a completely insane little turd from the get go. No "OMG!" moments were needed. From his very first scene he was hated, and he still is. There are characters that are loved throughout and others hated throughout, with consistency. There are others, such as Jaime, that you hate, then may have a change of heart towards. You can have that change of heart toards Jaime and still have the continuing hate for Ramsay, with no build up, just as you did with Joff.

[MizasterJ]

It would have been really nice to just see a glimpse of Ramsay.Why not? Instead of having the incredibly vague and somewhat confusing ending. In my opinion that would make a better lead in to Season 3..(who was that man and why did he burn winterfell?) Yes the viewers may understand that it was Roose Bolton's bastard but, they wouldnt necessarily know that Roose was "in on it" Ramsay could have been defying his father.

Instead we don't know what happened to Theon, we dont know what happened to the Ironmen, and we also have a loose end hanging with Roose telling Robb that his bastard's army was going to rescue Bran and Rikkon.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

We saw Joff as a completely insane little turd from the get go. No "OMG!" moments were needed. From his very first scene he was hated, and he still is. There are characters that are loved throughout and others hated throughout, with consistency. There are others, such as Jaime, that you hate, then may have a change of heart towards. You can have that change of heart toards Jaime and still have the continuing hate for Ramsay, with no build up, just as you did with Joff.

See I think Ramsey could be the new Jofferey. In the series first episode he doesn't do anything to bad. He is rude to the starks by not giving them his sympathies for Bran falling, but its not like he killed anyone he just a prick. But the second episode you see he is truely a little shit when he has the butchers boy killed.

Ramsey in his first appearance could burn winterfell to the ground and kill the ironborn at the same time. So you think awsome he killed the Ironborn. Then when he burns down winterfell the viewer would think oh my god why would he do that. Then the next scene with him is straight up flaying. I mean sure you could have him be a pure evil guy but you gotta remeber in asoiaf everyone even the shitty of all shitty have a reason for being so evil and grrm always gives you a hint of pity for them. Ramsey is awful absolutly nasty. But you cant forget he is the way he is because of his father. Not that it redeems him or anything, but it gives you a slight amount of pity and understanding. And I mean small.

By the end of the series the only pure evil villian with the Others.

[The Second Hand]

I think we can all agree that the handling of Theon's story was really awful and almost embarrasingly pedestrian. The fact that we'll wait, what, two years for Ramsay? God, a fan favorite totally gone now... and we'll be lucky if non-readers remember him at all.

[eyeheartsansa]

so much drama!

My prediction:

ramsay will be cast for season 3 and he will be a larger than life TV villain. He'll get more screen time than he gets book time and everyone will enjoy the shit out of watching him torture Theon. They aren't going to leave that story arc hanging.. we will see this very early in the next season as a new plot element.

non-readers are left with the mystery of which Northmen? why burn WF? and enough clues to put it together. Roose mentions his bastard in the 'previously on' segment. It's interesting that Robb is knowingly, in effect, handing Theon over to him.

Ramsay is just too good to be squeezed into the last two episodes. I guess they'll have to find some other way to incorporate 'Reek,' involving some tv-villain monologue.