[Book Spoilers] Qhorin Half-Brain..err I mean Half-Hand

[Leuf]

Yes I've read the books. You want Jon to be an uber ranger secret agent. Well he isn't. That's what makes Jon passable as a deserter. It's that Jon is naturally pretty confused and conflicted that gets him accepted by Mance, who would see right through him if he wasn't. By spending that time on Jon and Ygritte, now Ygritte knows Jon better and she's on his side, more so even than in the books at the start. She clearly understood what Qhorin was up to and she basically helped Jon get past his first test. Given the focus on the two of them, she'll probably keep helping him quite a bit.

It's inconsistent in the least to say that QH would try and have jon cross sides after proving to be such a boob. think about it. would he send Tarly to corss sides? Why didn't he send an experienced ranger to infiltrate in the past then?

Why would the NW ever have tried to infiltrate the wildlings when they've only just found out they are gathering? Like I said, what did Qhorin have to lose by trying it once they were caught?

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Yes I've read the books. You want Jon to be an uber ranger secret agent. Well he isn't. That's what makes Jon passable as a deserter. It's that Jon is naturally pretty confused and conflicted that gets him accepted by Mance, who would see right through him if he wasn't.

I suggest you go back and read Jon's early ASOS chapters.

By spending that time on Jon and Ygritte, now Ygritte knows Jon better and she's on his side, more so even than in the books at the start. She clearly understood what Qhorin was up to and she basically helped Jon get past his first test.

If that is the case, then she's beyond stupid.

Given the focus on the two of them, she'll probably keep helping him quite a bit.

Which would be ridiculous.

[Mulled Wino]

Yes I've read the books. You want Jon to be an uber ranger secret agent. Well he isn't. That's what makes Jon passable as a deserter. It's that Jon is naturally pretty confused and conflicted that gets him accepted by Mance, who would see right through him if he wasn't. By spending that time on Jon and Ygritte, now Ygritte knows Jon better and she's on his side, more so even than in the books at the start. She clearly understood what Qhorin was up to and she basically helped Jon get past his first test. Given the focus on the two of them, she'll probably keep helping him quite a bit.

Why would the NW ever have tried to infiltrate the wildlings when they've only just found out they are gathering? Like I said, what did Qhorin have to lose by trying it once they were caught?

No, i want jon to be a capable, better than average young ranger that's respected with a pedigree. Like he was in the books.

If one on the inside is worth 100 on the outside, seems like might be a strategy to try and get a solid spy amongst the wildlings. Especially if it was a competent ranger.

I see the show Ygritte/jon relationship as a joke.

Jon Snow isnt confused at all, book Jon knows exactly what to say to get Mance to believe him. Mance also took him because of his prowess as a fighter, killing Orell, capturing Ygritte, killing the halfhand, eluding capture by hunters for days or weeks and cuz he's a warg with ghost.

Jon Show is an absolute mess. He never killed orell, he got outwitted by ygritte, lost his fellow rangers, doesnt have a wolf, and i guess he gets props for killing qh in a joke of a fight.

You cant have really paid attention if you think Jon had nothing hard to do except bang Ygritte after mance accepted him.

[modehead]

They couldn't develop both Ygritte and Qhorin equally during the season...

That's what resonates with me. I just think they could've done alot more with the dialog Qhorin had: In that chain gang scenem he could've said "Learn what you can from them. Do as they say, and make sure your sword is sharp." and it makes sense that he sacrificed himself.

[Slingingstones]

The pregnant pause just prior to Jon stabbing Qhorin, was not the “Estocada”, a Matador performs on a charging bull. In this case, the bull came up short and didn‘t impale himself.. Everyone is imbued with self-preservation, Qhorin is no different, thus the pause before the assisted Hara-kiri. It appeared to border on Murder 2°, or at the very least, poor sportsmanship/rage.

I realize that they both had the plan in hand, but, some of my non-book friends didn’t pick up on it.

[Leuf]

I see the show Ygritte/jon relationship as a joke.

Well there you go. There's no real point in having a discussion about it, is there?

Nevertheless, Jon can't have the same discussion with Mance as he does in the books, since Jon isn't at the feast in the show. But I submit that Mance is already spilling his guts to Jon before Jon even says two sentences and it's not because Jon is such a badass. Jon tells Mance something he will believe, because there is a lot of truth behind it.

Jon has all next season with the wildlings to come of age.

[Mulled Wino]

Well there you go. There's no real point in having a discussion about it, is there?

Nevertheless, Jon can't have the same discussion with Mance as he does in the books, since Jon isn't at the feast in the show. But I submit that Mance is already spilling his guts to Jon before Jon even says two sentences and it's not because Jon is such a badass. Jon tells Mance something he will believe, because there is a lot of truth behind it.

Jon has all next season with the wildlings to come of age.

Please note: ignored the rest of a post and focused on one sentence he could attempt to manipulate.....

Why do ou think ygritte fell for him? She likes virgins? She likes guys she can outsmart and that are weaker than her? She digs emo guys that can let the woman be the boss?

I

[Mulled Wino]

Well there you go. There's no real point in having a discussion about it, is there?

Nevertheless, Jon can't have the same discussion with Mance as he does in the books, since Jon isn't at the feast in the show. But I submit that Mance is already spilling his guts to Jon before Jon even says two sentences and it's not because Jon is such a badass. Jon tells Mance something he will believe, because there is a lot of truth behind it.

Jon has all next season with the wildlings to come of age.

So why was mance spilling his guts then? Mance can spill his guts btw because he holds power over life and death for jon.

If u dont think mance only allowed jon to turn cuz he respected jon as a badass, i dont know what to say. Except that you are absolutely out of your mind.

You dont come of age AFTER manceaccepts u and u kill QH. Unless ur a warg with a direwolf and Jon Show is none of the above.

[Leuf]

Please note: ignored the rest of a post and focused on one sentence he could attempt to manipulate.....

That was not me ignoring the rest of a post (which everyone else has been doing to me), but me just saying you have no interest in seeing Jon's story from any other viewpoint so there's no point in me trying to argue the point any further. You win, whatever.

Why do ou think ygritte fell for him? She likes virgins? She likes guys she can outsmart and that are weaker than her? She digs emo guys that can let the woman be the boss?

I think he's a different kind of man than what she's used to, just like Drogo was into Dany because she was different. I don't think she's in love with him or anything at this point, but she's intrigued by him. I doubt she's ever met a man she could come onto who wouldn't be on her in two seconds. She wants to figure him out.

Likewise Mance has no shortage of men who think they are badasses around him. Mance has some freaky obsession with Winterfell going on and here is Ned's son in front of him. It's another puzzle to be figured out.

[Jayce]

all the changes they made, they did them just because they though they could improve the story....

I don't agree with this. I agree that they have buggered up Qhorin's rep, his mens abilities and made Jon look a muppet, but they did not do it for the reason you state.

Unfortunately it comes down to simple numbers, they have a big budget, but it is not unlimited and to do these scene's like the book they would of needed more actors and possibly more screen time. I know you or I could work out a better way, but we don't have the other consideration to take in to account on top. They did the best they could, its just unfortunately they buggered this one up.

[Jayce]

I've been reading through this and people keep talking about Mance as if he was in the episode, did I miss something?

[Mulled Wino]

That was not me ignoring the rest of a post (which everyone else has been doing to me), but me just saying you have no interest in seeing Jon's story from any other viewpoint so there's no point in me trying to argue the point any further. You win, whatever.

I think he's a different kind of man than what she's used to, just like Drogo was into Dany because she was different. I don't think she's in love with him or anything at this point, but she's intrigued by him. I doubt she's ever met a man she could come onto who wouldn't be on her in two seconds. She wants to figure him out.

Likewise Mance has no shortage of men who think they are badasses around him. Mance has some freaky obsession with Winterfell going on and here is Ned's son in front of him. It's another puzzle to be figured out.

I have no problems with stories being reworked for the small screen. I have a problem with how they reworked Jon Show and pretty much everythig north of the wall.

And as far as Ygritte being intrigued, you and I have a completely different view of wildling society. I believe that before any sort of interest forms between the opposite sex (especially with a spearwife), respect MUST be earned. Ygritte would never respect Jon Show, which was such an easy fix. Just have him kill orell and take her prisoner, then CHOOSE to let her go. Now, we're talkin intrigue. Someone from her society would rather spit on Jon Show than start falling for him or help him.

Mance has no shortage of strong men around him, but he needs more. Especially more that have knowledge of the wall. But he would be better off keeping Jon Show prisoner in a cage and just extracting info from him. Thats all he brings to the table.

Its pretty obvious why Mance has a "freaky thing" going on with winterfell. Its the capital of the north no? There's quite a bit of history bet the wildlings and the starks.

[Davos55]

There is no way the storyline in the show improved on the novel's version. I was most disappointed by Jon's story for the entire season. I absolutely loved his story in ACOK, and the show has ruined it and lost almost all of the essence of his character. Hopefully they can right their ship with his excellent material in ASOS, but I won't get my hopes up. Very, very unfortunate.

Also, where the F is Ghost?!?!?!?

[Leuf]

I do think that Jon's story this season was a downgrade from the books. Where with Dany they needed to fill in some things and I think they had some success doing that, they actually took meat out of Jon's story. But that doesn't mean that his story is ruined going forwards. If you're going to hold to the idea that book Ygritte can't respect show Jon, well fine maybe you're right. But show Ygritte can, and show Jon can still do plenty to impress her next season. I don't think Jon really comes into his own until after they go over the Wall and he makes a real choice for the first time.

This year I reread ACOK before the season started, but next year I am purposefully not going to touch ASOS so that the details are a little fuzzy. Hopefully I can just enjoy the show for what it is instead of whining about what it isn't. I did plenty of that myself over the first eight episodes this season and frankly I don't want to be that guy. You're never going to enjoy the rest of the show if you make up your mind that a character is ruined in the second season.

[Istakhr]

I do think that Jon's story this season was a downgrade from the books. Where with Dany they needed to fill in some things and I think they had some success doing that, they actually took meat out of Jon's story. But that doesn't mean that his story is ruined going forwards. If you're going to hold to the idea that book Ygritte can't respect show Jon, well fine maybe you're right. But show Ygritte can, and show Jon can still do plenty to impress her next season. I don't think Jon really comes into his own until after they go over the Wall and he makes a real choice for the first time.

This year I reread ACOK before the season started, but next year I am purposefully not going to touch ASOS so that the details are a little fuzzy. Hopefully I can just enjoy the show for what it is instead of whining about what it isn't. I did plenty of that myself over the first eight episodes this season and frankly I don't want to be that guy. You're never going to enjoy the rest of the show if you make up your mind that a character is ruined in the second season.

The problem with Jon's story is that most Non book readers now believe he is slow and stupid instead of inexperienced. If next year they continue his degradation this time by Mance and wildlings, nobody is going to believe him transforming to a semi-competent lord commander.

[Mulled Wino]

To me, they ruined Jon Snow and the whole storyline north of the wall. But that was the only thing the season really ruined for me, i have other minor beefs, but nothing like this lame storyline.

I will view next season completely independently of this season. I've got more important grudges to hold in my life.

[Istakhr]

I always imagined if Jon's story in ACOK was ever to be filmed, it would be something like the last scenes of Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring, with Night's Watchmen being chased sacrificing themselves combined with epicness and a sense of doom, climaxing in Jon's anguish in having to kill his mentor.

Instead we got a soap opera with stupid Jon, stupid Qhorin and stupid wildlings. Don't they understand when every character north of the wall acts like an idiot, people stop caring about any of them? Just how many non book readers care about TV Jon for anything other than his looks?

The only reason for S2 north storyline that I can see is D&D like many other mediocre TV writers falling in love with a character (Ygrette by Rose Leslie) and writing a soap around her.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Enjoyed this quote from TV Critic Miodrag Zarkovic about the Jon QHorin storyline. I think he hits the nail on the head.

Pretty malfunctioning was also the part where wildlings release Jon Snow in the finale of season 2. As far as his captors know, Jon only protected his life by killing an angry attacker; to them, Jon did nothing other than proving to be a better swordsman than his fellow “crow;” he didn’t show any willingness to betray his oath and switch sides; actually, by witnessing how deadly with a sword Jon is, wildlings should’ve become much more cautious around him; and yet, as soon as Qhorin’s body fell to the ground, previously bloodthirsty leader of the group cut off ties of Jon’s hands. So yeah, Rattleshirt and his company are bound to enter the race for the nicest captors of Westeros, competing against the Lannister forces that kept Arya in Harrenhal.

The wildings also look incredibly stupid; makes no sense why Rattleshirt, who I believe was keeping Jon and Qhorin from fighitng in episode 8, suddenly lets them fight ot the death and impulsively releases Jon for no real reason. Awful, awful writing by David and Dan. They wasted two episdoes worth of setup for Jon's storyline on him romping around with Ygritte, and then had to pull this piece of hackery out of their ass to end on the same note as the book.

[Mulled Wino]

Enjoyed this quote from TV Critic Miodrag Zarkovic about the Jon QHorin storyline. I think he hits the nail on the head.

The wildings also look incredibly stupid; makes no sense why Rattleshirt, who I believe was keeping Jon and Qhorin from fighitng in episode 8, suddenly lets them fight ot the death and impulsively releases Jon for no real reason. Awful, awful writing by David and Dan. They wasted two episdoes worth of setup for Jon's storyline on him romping around with Ygritte, and then had to pull this piece of hackery out of their ass to end on the same note as the book.

The last two posts including this one are great.

Ive been saying that the chase scene with qh and jon snow could have made for epic and amazing tv. The whole north of the wall storyline is a complete fail this season. I guess it was done so Ygritte could talk dirty one book early.

Great quote arrogant bastard.

[Husband to Bears]

Qhorin and jon needed another scene or two to set up the plan.

This. In a series where the conversations have been so special, they missed one great chance to flesh out Jon's character while interacting with the Halfhand. But I still got the books half hand. Now, if they screw up the Tall Talker and Jon next season. Pikes! Walls! :)