[Book Spoilers] Qhorin Half-Brain..err I mean Half-Hand

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

You can't understand the 'fuss' because you are confused as to what the fuss is about.

Qhorin's motivations are not the issue, Jon's are.

It was, in the opinion of many posters on this thread, entirely ambiguous when Jon cottoned onto to the nature of Qhorin's plan. If he realized what Qhorin was doing only after he had run him through he is a murderer.

Some thought Jon and Qhorin were on the same page after episode eight, some thought Jon realized what was afoot only during the fight, others felt Jon only really understood what was going on after he had put his sword in Qhorin.

Point is this level of ambiguity regarding Jon's main decision in season 2 totally sucks.

Read the thread next time.

I thought they made it ambigious on purpose. So next season Jon will spill the beans to Ygritte break down cry that he killed his friend to join them even though the HH wanted him to...and then sex. Perfect way to lead to them having sex instead of Jon just being like oops I broke my vow and banged you.

[Nine of Spades]

Unlike the genius who wants to send men across a blizzard to Hardhomme when his fleet has been wiped out and the place is surrounded by Others.

Also unlike the guy who can't tell when he has pissed his men off enough to shove knives in him.

1. The wildlings compose the bulk of the force, and they had no problems with the plan. We think it a terrible idea largely because Mel thinks its a terrible idea, but we have more reason to trust Mel and her visions then Jon does.

2. I dont think the assassination was terribly obvious or something that could be expected. Its really unclear how Marsh and co thought assassinating Jon in the middle of a bunch of armed wildlings would go well. Its not like Jon didnt have loyalists in the watch either, Marsh and his people are likely dead, however events end up transpiring. Seeing an assassination that is that suicidal coming from Bowen Marsh I think is pretty difficult.

This is in contrast to him:

1. Gettting Tormund's people south of the wall.

2. Getting rid of Slynt.

3. Keeping Stannis off his back and off the wildlings backs

4. Securing funds nescessary

5, Securing ships to try and save the people at Hardhome

So I think his record in ADWD is at worst mixed. Compared to the relentless boobery of Jon Show season its positively stellar.

[SerMixalot]

and that problem is especially egregious because the circumstances of his killing QH play a HUGE role when he returns to the NW. I guess I can see it being played that Jon was acting under orders, but I think it was important enough that it SHOULD have been expressly stated and not left to interpretation.

[Chaircat Meow]

I thought they made it ambigious on purpose. So next season Jon will spill the beans to Ygritte break down cry that he killed his friend to join them even though the HH wanted him to...and then sex. Perfect way to lead to them having sex instead of Jon just being like oops I broke my vow and banged you.

Um...

If this does happen Ygritte is more likely to stick something in Jon than let him stick something in her.

Just saying.

[SerMixalot]

Saving the wildings is a very good idea, whether at the gate or at Hardhome. Saving them before they are turned into wights makes for far fewer enemies. 30,000 unkillable zombies would be a BIG problem for the NW

[Wolfmage]

You can't understand the 'fuss' because you are confused as to what the fuss is about.

I addressed a variety of observations made in this thread, thanks.

Qhorin's motivations are not the issue, Jon's are.

Other people have raised the question of Qhorin's motivations. As I was adding my own thoughts and general reactions to a variety of posts, without quoting anyone specifically, I don't feel I'm required to address the capital I “Issue” as defined by you.

It was, in the opinion of many posters on this thread, entirely ambiguous when Jon cottoned onto to the nature of Qhorin's plan. If he realized what Qhorin was doing only after he had run him through he is a murderer.

Well, from what I read, posters have raised this ambiguity in the context of Jon’s facial expression and Qhorin’s taunts. I have addressed the taunts above, which make perfect sense to me, though I can see how some might feel the facial expression thing muddies the water for them.

Some thought Jon and Qhorin were on the same page after episode eight, some thought Jon realized what was afoot only during the fight, others felt Jon only really understood what was going on after he had put his sword in Qhorin.

Personally I think Qhorin's prior push-fight sign-posted things very clearly when combined with the dialogue over multiple episodes. The dialogue was directed straight at Jon, so I don't particularly think we need to pinpoint Jon's absolute understanding of what's happening. It is enough to say his understanding is emergent without any defined point of crystallisation prior to the moment happening, presumably because he would be in denial about the need to actually kill a mentor and hero -- even though he couldn't help but be aware this was always Qhorin's intention.

Of course, you are free to posit that Jon is absolutely oblivious to all this and that he doesn't have a clue what is going on around him.

Read the thread next time.

Don’t be an ass. I read the thread, thanks. I don't personally agree that the ambiguities are really so substantive to hurt understanding or enjoyment, let alone being fatal to the credibility of the series, though I'm certainly happy to discuss them without belittling people. My experience is that non-readers can mostly understand what is going on without the kind of confusion that should follow from such allegedly fatal ambiguities.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

Um...

If this does happen Ygritte is more likely to stick something in Jon than let him stick something in her.

Just saying.

Doubt it. Ygritte is a free woman. And theres one thing on her mind Jons Snowcone. And she would be irritated with him but not kill him.

[Nine of Spades]

Doubt it. Ygritte is a free woman. And theres one thing on her mind Jons Snowcone. And she would be irritated with him but not kill him.

Whaaaa?

"Im no crow wife!" Ygritte?

Ygritte cut Jon a lot of slack for his kneeler ways, but no way does she take him to bed if she knows hes a crow

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

Whaaaa?

"Im no crow wife!" Ygritte?

Ygritte cut Jon a lot of slack for his kneeler ways, but no way does she take him to bed if she knows hes a crow

Exactly so I think Jon will spill the beans about HH wanting him to kill him to Ygritte about how he is still a crow break down she will say something along the lines of "You don't have to be a crow anymore." *sex scene* and then from there on out she will think he is a wilding. But that way Jon is able to confide in someone tell the truth of why he killed HH but at the same time be half a lie because he convinces her hes not a member of the watch by finally having sex with her. I mean the seventh episode they talked about sex the whole time the one thing that would make her trust him is sex because she knows its against his vows. Jon Snow more like littlefinger in the north next season.

[xythil]

I think the Jon and Ygritte scenes served the purpose of providing more insight (and a reminder) into the Wildlings before they have a bigger part to play next season. I think that was well done. However it doesn't change the fact that it was completely stupid and weird that Qhorin is like "okcheersbye" as soon as Jon says he'll kill her. There is no sense in that. They are beyond the Wall in enemy territory, they would not leave a rookie who has never been beyond the wall alone with a Wildling. It is retarded.

It also doesn't change the fact that Qhorin only slightly hinted that Jon had to turn cloak. He certainly didn't order him to kill him. In the books when the shit hits the fan with Jon's turn cloakery, at least Jon can say that he was ordered to do it by the best ranger in the Nightswatch, a commander and legend. He actually ordered him to do it.

Why couldn't we get to know the wildlings... NEXT SEASON?

Why did we have to forgo AWESOME Nights Watch valor/glory scenes in favor of ygritte leg humping and jon wandering around like a fool?

[Howdyphillip]

Saving the wildings is a very good idea, whether at the gate or at Hardhome. Saving them before they are turned into wights makes for far fewer enemies. 30,000 unkillable zombies would be a BIG problem for the NW

Saving the wildlings before they turn into weights is a brilliant idea... Sending the fleet was a great move. After receiving a raven saying that most of the fleet has been lost, and there are Others in the water and on the land, and then deciding to lead a bunch of people to form a rescue party was as dumb a move as anyone has made in the entire series. The message was days old, those people were almost assuredly dead. To make matters worse, he was going to send men through a blizzard without the supplies to actually help the starving people he was supposedly going to rescue.

[eyeheartsansa]

I love how everyone here thinks they can write for HBO.

[xythil]

I love how everyone here thinks they can write for HBO.

Thats just it...we don't have to write for HBO... George already wrote it... they just keep f*cking it up.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

I love how everyone here thinks they can write for HBO.

Fuck the city, Fuck the kingsguard, Fuck the king. <----- my idea.

[The Bastard of Bolton]

Jon's story was handled pretty bad I admit.

To my everlasting surprise my 68 year old borderline senile father immediately figured out that Quorin let himself be killed in order to give Jon a chance to survive and infiltrate the wildlings. I most be undermining my father and the writers because in my mind I didn't think most people would have caught on to this given how poor the setup was in contrast to the book.

[Morrigan]

Thats just it...we don't have to write for HBO... George already wrote it... they just keep f*cking it up.

This. All they needed to do was film things pretty much as they were written, for these scenes there were no budget restrictions, it was just dialogue between Qhorin and Jon, but it was crucial dialogue. You needed Qhorin ordering Jon to "do whatever they ask" and "not balk" despite Jon's outrage at the notion of oathbreaking and that he'd rather die instead of breaking his oath but being reluctantly convinced, and you needed Jon to say "I yield" to the wildlings and THEN Qhorin call him names, and THEN have Rattleshirt order Jon to kill Qhorin and him complying. It wasn't that hard to do, people, and it would have established a good relationship between the two previously, and it would have shown that Jon actually asked to join the wildlings before getting called a traitor and having to prove himself.

I have to say, the way they handled the Jon/Qhorin story is probably the thing that pissed me off the most so far. Other than the worthless garbage that is Robb/Talissa, that is.

[xythil]

This. All they needed to do was film things pretty much as they were written, for these scenes there were no budget restrictions, it was just dialogue between Qhorin and Jon, but it was crucial dialogue. You needed Qhorin ordering Jon to "do whatever they ask" and "not balk", and you needed Jon to say "I yield" to the wildlings and THEN Qhorin call him names, and THEN have Rattleshirt order Jon to kill Qhorin and him complying. It wasn't that hard to do, people, and it would have established a good relationship between the two previously, and it would have shown that Jon actually asked to join the wildlings before getting called a traitor and having to prove himself.

I have to say, the way they handled the Jon/Qhorin story is probably the thing that pissed me off the most so far. Other than the worthless garbage that is Robb/Talissa, that is.

This

[Honey Badger]

Does anyone believe that Jon Show is the type of character to stand up to Stannis and Melisandre, beat the Thenns and defend the wall against Mance?

No, of course not. As already mentioned, he's a Marty Stu. For a bastard boy that's not worth too much other than being related to Ned and Benjen, he manages to get a cool dog, befriend people despite being a brooding ungrateful brat, get a cool sword, slay an Other, become Steward to the Lord only to become Lord Commander himself, infiltrate the Wildling army without being killed, trusted to play both sides, etc. His only real antagonist on the Wall is a well-connected guy he magically bests in an election he wasn't even trying to win, who he conveniently beheads later. It's actually a very absurd story arch. Just about everyone else in ASOIAF is easier to swallow.

[Honey Badger]

This. All they needed to do was film things pretty much as they were written, for these scenes there were no budget restrictions, it was just dialogue between Qhorin and Jon, but it was crucial dialogue. You needed Qhorin ordering Jon to "do whatever they ask" and "not balk" despite Jon's outrage at the notion of oathbreaking and that he'd rather die instead of breaking his oath but being reluctantly convinced, and you needed Jon to say "I yield" to the wildlings and THEN Qhorin call him names, and THEN have Rattleshirt order Jon to kill Qhorin and him complying. It wasn't that hard to do, people, and it would have established a good relationship between the two previously, and it would have shown that Jon actually asked to join the wildlings before getting called a traitor and having to prove himself.

I have to say, the way they handled the Jon/Qhorin story is probably the thing that pissed me off the most so far. Other than the worthless garbage that is Robb/Talissa, that is.

True. Changing written text is fine, but you then throw the gauntlet down that you have something better up your sleeve. This plot shows a fairly bumbling Qhorin, which was unfortunate. They could have made things more clear that Jon knew his orders rather than killing an unarmed man out of anger. And the Halfhand tripping due to Ghost made it reasonable for Jon to slit his throat. This Qhorin had no reason to be bested and it appears forced.

[Howdyphillip]

I love how everyone here thinks they can write for HBO.

That is a little insulting... I have the ability to formulate an opinion on what I think is good writing or not and to then express my ideas about it. Everyone here does. If you find something that you disagree with, then by all means find your points and discuss them.