[Book Spoilers] Qhorin Half-Brain..err I mean Half-Hand

[victim]

I just want to put down my cards and say that I don't think Qhorin was done wrong by in the show. Sure, he was much cooler in the books and the show could have put him in some more scenes and made him far more formidable, but the essence of the character remained in that he was a man willing to die for the Wall. The infamous ranger had laid a plan down which was always going to end with his own death, whether Jon realised this before or after the fact has no major impact on his character arc, seeing as Qhorin essentially jumped on Jon's sword anyway.

Jon certainly knew there was some sort of plan to make the Wildlings trust him, he just didn't know what this plan was. After Jon eventually disarms Qhorin, there is brief moment of respite before he drives his sword through him. This clearly shows that Jon did not kill him because he was angry, but rather because finally realised that he must "do what needed to be done."

Despite what you think about why Jon killed Qhorin -- I think both arguments carry some weight, I really do -- I don't think it's necessarily important either way. What's truly important to Jon's character is what he realises after the deed is done, not what he realises beforehand. He just watched a man he respected die for the Wall. Qhorin laid his life down for the Watch, which is something that will stick with Jon throughout the series, despite the different path it took to get there.

[Ghost Rider]

True. Changing written text is fine, but you then throw the gauntlet down that you have something better up your sleeve. This plot shows a fairly bumbling Qhorin, which was unfortunate. They could have made things more clear that Jon knew his orders rather than killing an unarmed man out of anger. And the Halfhand tripping due to Ghost made it reasonable for Jon to slit his throat. This Qhorin had no reason to be bested and it appears forced.

That's not Morrigan "writing" the shooting script, that's exactly what's in the book. :) Establishing a relationship between Jon and Quorin was crucial to any dramatic impact of the fighting scene. The build up to that scene, the sense of urgency created via the intense chase NW - wildlings, the desperation at the end - all lost. Instead we got Ygritte scenes we could just as well have seen next season where they would hat fitted in much better, imho.

They also robbed Jon of all his choices: letting Ygritte go was his choice and showed us a lot of his character, losing her because of incompetence otoh, oh well.... Appealing to the Wildlings was his choice as well, one that was absolutely necessary for the Wildlings to buy his story. In the show the Wildlings are the ones that come off completely as morons. I mean they let their prisoners whisper to one another and then they are not the least bit suspicious when Quorin Halfhand goads Jon into killing him? Almost as dumb as Jon, Quorin not being able to follow someones traces in the snow in fact.

To the people who think Jon is not very smart in the books either: I think you are very wrong. Book!Jon is very observant and able to think outside the box. It was not for nothing that Mormont saw him as a potential successor. I especially liked the scene with the Maester's chain in AGoT that very early on highlighted his intelligence. Jon Show otoh... I really didn't wonder that Quorin Halfhand didn't request Jon for the ranging, who would honestly? These are not minor changes, Jon is after all one of the main protagonists of the story (not arguably!)

Well, as you can see I am rather disappointed and yes, sad, how the show handled Jon's story. I had been really looking forward to the drama of his CoK scenes.

[StarkWard]

Everything is said already. A Final Order would have really salvaged things a bit.

[Roboginger]

Wow... some of you guys really miss a lot of what goes on in the show....

care to elaborate? I remember a conversation or 2 john and half hand had that eludes to Jon spying, but i'm afraid no book readers might not pickup on it

[Versiroth]

care to elaborate? I remember a conversation or 2 john and half hand had that eludes to Jon spying, but i'm afraid no book readers might not pickup on it

Qhorin - One Brother inside Mances camp is worth 100 outside.

Jon - They'll never trust me.

Qhorin - They will... if you do what must be done.

*pushes john down and screams*

Qhorin - Traitor! You planned to give us up to the Wildlings!

*Ygritte looks at Jon with wide curious eyes and Jon thinks... I understand*

Later...

Qhorin - Die you traitor!

*They fight...Jon realizing what Qhorin had meant he disarms and kills him*

Qhorin to Jon - We are the watchers that guard the night.....

Audience - Ahh! That's what he ment when he told Jon he had to do what must be done!

Or

Audience - Yep, exactly what I figured was happening.

[eyeheartsansa]

That is a little insulting... I have the ability to formulate an opinion on what I think is good writing or not and to then express my ideas about it. Everyone here does. If you find something that you disagree with, then by all means find your points and discuss them.

I am not responding to any one person here, just all the general fan rage... it is no fun and makes me tired. No need to feel insulted. I don't have the time or energy to outline all the things I disagree with, like a debate club.

There's no 'right' or 'wrong' when discussing these things, but I'm just not feeling all the fan rage going on here. It was not that difficult to surmise that Jon and Quorin were putting on a show for the wildlings, especially given their conversation two episodes ago. If it wasn't so obvious, fine - it's ok to have a little confusion and a little ambiguity.

I expect Jon and Ygrette will have a little heart to heart chat in the next season and he will unpack some of that for us, to clarify this point to anyone who didn't get it.

Everyone is so worried that people who didn't read the books are going to be confused, miss things, or whatever - which is also condescending. Poor confused non-readers who won't understand! Let them be confused! They can go read the books.. or they can have their own theories... or they might be following the show just as well as anyone, because they aren't worrying so much about these discrepancies.

I post in an unrelated, music-oriented forum, which has an active GoT thread. readers and non-readers alike are following the show and aside from a few minor quibbles, everyone has been pretty much thrilled with this season. It is quality writing and production and it's getting good ratings. My a number of measurable standards, we are getting a killer 10 episodes of premium television.

I just think too many hardcore GRRM fans are taking some of this stuff waaaay too seriously, and need to just relax a little and enjoy the ride. One guy's opinion, but I'm not alone. George is a veteran TV writer. If he was not pleased with how the story is being handled, he would not be putting his name on any of it.

I feel I'm always coming to the show's defense, and it's not always the case. there are few minor things i was disappointed in. Most recently.. not enough burnination at the HOU. I wanted to see dany walking away calmly as the whole building was collapsing in flames behind her. Robb and Talisa... good not great. But I've been no less than pleased with just about all of Jon Snow's stuff. He is whiny and angsty, occasionally gutsy, fiercely committed to his vows but conflicted about all the things he's supposed to be conflicted about. Even though every reader doesn't get to see their favorite scene or line of dialogue, they are conveying all of this wonderfully,

[KC_Accidental]

Why couldn't we get to know the wildlings... NEXT SEASON?

Why did we have to forgo AWESOME Nights Watch valor/glory scenes in favor of ygritte leg humping and jon wandering around like a fool?

I think since we haven't really heard much about the Wildlings in depth and certainly not much since season 1, that it was a good idea to get some more insight into them before Jon was marched into their camp at the start of season 3. I think that would have left some viewers wondering exactly what the deal was with these people. It's good to set things up a little beforehand.

I don't think it should have replaced the Halfhand and rangers scenes though. Saying that if those scenes were to be included in their entirety they would take up a large chunk of an episode, as opposed to 5-10 minutes of Ygritte educating the viewer on the differences between the NIghtswatch and Wildlings.

So yeah, just saying there was a purpose for those scenes. I found it stupid on Jon and Qhorin's part but I have to say I loved Ygritte so much so I can't complain too much! Her accent is amazing.

I just think too many hardcore GRRM fans are taking some of this stuff waaaay too seriously, and need to just relax a little and enjoy the ride. One guy's opinion, but I'm not alone. George is a veteran TV writer. If he was not pleased with how the story is being handled, he would not be putting his name on any of it.

I think you don't understand what a contract is. If GRRM is not happy he can't just pull the plug on it. This point has been made before, he has sold the rights to it and is on board as a consultant and to write 1 episode, out of respect to him. I also made the point before that fans are very much entitled to their criticism. Book readers have technically made this happen. If fans didn't buy the books and made it popular then HBO wouldn't be adapting it and certainly not without a huge budget. No popularity, no go I'm afraid.

It's the same with people saying that GRRM has every right to take his time writing these books. Of course he does but his fans have made him a shit ton of money and given his story a brilliant TV adaptation. We shouldn't be left hung out to dry as he reaches old age, endangering the completion of the series. I say take time with it George but don't make us wait another 6 years for Winds of Winter! And certainly not another 6 on top of that for the finale!

[eyeheartsansa]

I think you don't understand what a contract is. If GRRM is not happy he can't just pull the plug on it. This point has been made before, he has sold the rights to it and is on board as a consultant and to write 1 episode, out of respect to him. I also made the point before that fans are very much entitled to their criticism. Book readers have technically made this happen. If fans didn't buy the books and made it popular then HBO wouldn't be adapting it and certainly not without a huge budget. No popularity, no go I'm afraid.

So do you think George is secretly cursing the TV screen when he sees these things while maintaining a public front of being jolly and supportive in his interviews? I'm genuinely curious as to what he thinks of the Qarth stuff especially. He seems to have a great sense of humor about it, which I find refreshing.

Everyone is as entitled to be upset, as much as others are entitled to be annoyed. That is what keeps these discussions going. this is not my first rodeo. I've seen this story before a dozen times with various adaptations over the years.

[KC_Accidental]

Well I don't think it would be good for him to publicly slate the show if he does have grievances. I'm not saying he doesn't though, just that if he does then he can't really do anything about it. If he came out slating it then it would look unprofessional on his part and probably make him look like a bit of a douche, no matter how entitled he was to do so. Look at Alan Moore for example.

And of course he could be totally fine with it. As you say he seems quite a jolly man and he's probably very happy that it's in good hands. Despite grievances about certain things I do still believe the show is in good hands. Mainly because it could be so so much worse and be spearheaded by people who aren't fans of the books.

[MaximumPatlickicus]

Qhorin - One Brother inside Mances camp is worth 100 outside.

Jon - They'll never trust me.

Qhorin - They will... if you do what must be done.

*pushes john down and screams*

Qhorin - Traitor! You planned to give us up to the Wildlings!

Yea, right then I thought, "okay even though this isn't a perfect 1:1 adaptation, at least the setup is complete"

I really don't understand where some people are seeing ambiguity. The actors facial expressions? So you don't like Kit's acting then, but you can't fault the writing for that. It wasn't perfect, but there is simply no evidence for this "jon snow stupidly murdered halfhand in anger because there was no plan" idea.

Still, I would rather to have seen the repeated "is your sword sharp?" question, with Qhorin's last word a simple "...sharp" than whatever it was he said in the show..

...also the spearwife offering Jon her breast would have been nice :drool:

edit: oh yea, without ghost's help, it doesn't make sense that Jon is able to defeat the legendary Halfhand, unless he's holding back. THAT makes for a legitimate gripe IMO.

[Greywolf2375]

Well, you missed very blatant attempts by the writers to show you that Jon knew what Qhorin was doing. And later, when he tells his black brothers "I was following the Half Hands orders", maybe then you can admit you were wrong.

That's part of the problem. There was no order for Jon to turn his cloak and become a wildling.

[Independent George]

The problem with Jon's story on the show is that they had to dumb down every single character to make it work. Namely:

1. Qhorin is an idiot to leave a completely green Jon alone to execute Ygritte, right after he's already hesitated to kill her.

2. Qhorin is even more of an idiot for not turning around and looking the entire time he's walking away.

3. Jon is an idiot for first letting her escape, and then dragging her around the wilderness looking for Qhorin.

4. Qhorin then stumbles into an ambush while searching for his missing ranger (who's only missing because of #s 1 & 2 above).

5. The wildlings are idiots by letting Qhorin arm himself.

6. And then, despite specifically capturing him alive (probably at great cost) to interrogate him, they hand the other prisoner a sword and let him kill their highly valuable prisoner.

Seriously, this was just awful. I loved Ygritte's performance, but not enough to overlook all of this idiocy. We lost out on Squire Dalbridge for this?

[Versiroth]

The problem with Jon's story on the show is that they had to dumb down every single character to make it work. Namely:

1. Qhorin is an idiot to leave a completely green Jon alone to execute Ygritte, right after he's already hesitated to kill her.

2. Qhorin is even more of an idiot for not turning around and looking the entire time he's walking away.

3. Jon is an idiot for first letting her escape, and then dragging her around the wilderness looking for Qhorin.

4. Qhorin then stumbles into an ambush while searching for his missing ranger (who's only missing because of #s 1 & 2 above).

5. The wildlings are idiots by letting Qhorin arm himself.

6. And then, despite specifically capturing him alive (probably at great cost) to interrogate him, they hand the other prisoner a sword and let him kill their highly valuable prisoner.

Seriously, this was just awful. I loved Ygritte's performance, but not enough to overlook all of this idiocy. We lost out on Squire Dalbridge for this?

1 and 2 happen in the book. The difference is Jon lets her go right then and there and rejoins Qhorin.

3. Jon didn't let her escape in the show. He had reservations about killing her and being a hard women, she was able to escape. And he dragged her through the wilderness because A) he still didn't want to kill her and B ) he didn't want to break his vows. Heck, the writers probably purposely did this to insure the audience that he wasn't truly breaking his vows when he killed Qhorin. Merely doing what must be done.

4. Qhorin stumbles into plenty of ambushes in the book. The eagle tracking them kept the wildlings on top of them the whole time they were trying to escape. The only reason Qhorin asked Jon to kill him and join the wildlings in the book is because he knew they were both as good as dead if he didn't.

5. Qhorin was tied up... he rammed a wildling and stole a sword to attack Jon.

6. In the book, the wildlings also let Qhorin and Jon fight. Ghost helps him in the book, but to be honest, it's probably better that he didn't in the show as the writers were clearly trying to convey to the audience that the death was a ruse to get the wildlings to trust Jon. Qhorin gave his life to set Jon up to spy on the wildlings for the Nights Watch. If Ghost attacks Qhorin, it really could have been seen to the TV audience as murder.

What happens in the book and on the screen ends up the same. The only difference was that a lot of what was said in the books was implied in the show.

[Chaircat Meow]

1 and 2 happen in the book. The difference is Jon lets her go right then and there and rejoins Qhorin.

3. Jon didn't let her escape in the show. He had reservations about killing her and being a hard women, she was able to escape. And he dragged her through the wilderness because A) he still didn't want to kill her and B ) he didn't want to break his vows. Heck, the writers probably purposely did this to insure the audience that he wasn't truly breaking his vows when he killed Qhorin. Merely doing what must be done.

4. Qhorin stumbles into plenty of ambushes in the book. The eagle tracking them kept the wildlings on top of them the whole time they were trying to escape. The only reason Qhorin asked Jon to kill him and join the wildlings in the book is because he knew they were both as good as dead if he didn't.

5. Qhorin was tied up... he rammed a wildling and stole a sword to attack Jon.

6. In the book, the wildlings also let Qhorin and Jon fight. Ghost helps him in the book, but to be honest, it's probably better that he didn't in the show as the writers were clearly trying to convey to the audience that the death was a ruse to get the wildlings to trust Jon. Qhorin gave his life to set Jon up to spy on the wildlings for the Nights Watch.

What happens in the book and on the screen ends up the same. The only difference was that a of what was said in the books was implied in the show.

This is absolute drivel.

1 and 2 do not happen in the book. Book Qhorin doesn't need Jon to kill Ygritte, he is just testing him and that is why he leaves. He wants to see what Jon will do if left to his own devices and without pressure from his commander. In the show Qhorin does want Ygritte dead and so he has no reason to leave.

Jon didn't let her escape in the show in the sense that it was a conscious choice. He was thoroughly incompetent and in this sense allowed her to escape. Again unlike the book when Ygritte was released because Jon decided he had to be merciful. Book Ygritte was also super ugly so no one can think Jon was hesitant because he was attracted to her. This is why KH believes his character in the show was unable to kill Ygritte though and he says it was a selfish decision.

Yeah, the eagle. Only Orell's ability to track Qhorin ensured Rattleshirt's success in the book. In the show Qhorin appears to have lain down like a dog. As did Jon when he was ambushed. In the book they were both prepared to fight to the death.

Qhorin can still kill someone with a sword hands tied or no! So it makes no difference. Cripes.

In the book the wildlings weren't interested in having Qhorin as their prisoner. In the show they said they were, even though Ygritte said earlier they weren't!

In the book the wildings have a reason for allowing the fight. If Jon and Ghost kill Qhorin they won't have to take on the feared ranger themselves. They would win if they did, obviously, but they still risked losses. They had some reason to think Jon turncloak did them a favour and they also knew Jon had a choice between attempting an honourable death and turning his cloak. In the show the first option wasn't open to him. So the original point about the wildlings needing to be dumbed down stands.

I've rarely seen a more hopelessly confused post than yours.

[Jojosh]

People who don't understand what is going on are just going by the finale's scene with jon and quorin. The correct way to view everything would be to remember what quorin said to jon in ep 8 and carry it over to this scene.

Pretty simple

As for Ghost's absence we haven't seen him since Quorin talked to Jon about how he can't control things that are wild.

Nitpick away on that omission

[Chaircat Meow]

People who don't understand what is going on are just going by the finale's scene with jon and quorin. The correct way to view everything would be to remember what quorin said to jon in ep 8 and carry it over to this scene.

Pretty simple

Nope.

People who have said they thought Jon's decision was left open to multiple interpretations in the show have indeed watched episode eight and it doesn't convince them Jon was in on the plan until he had killed Qhorin.

Read the thread.

[eyeheartsansa]

I've heard from plenty of non-readers (I hate calling them that!) who knew perfectly well what was going on, better than some people here.

[Howdyphillip]

So do you think George is secretly cursing the TV screen when he sees these things while maintaining a public front of being jolly and supportive in his interviews? I'm genuinely curious as to what he thinks of the Qarth stuff especially. He seems to have a great sense of humor about it, which I find refreshing.

I think George is right now sitting in a bathtub made of gold filled full of money and he is manically laughing.

(At least that is what I would be doing right now if HBO backed up and unloaded a dump truck full of cash at my house that they did to his.)

To answer on a more serious note, I really believe that if took the kinds of issues that some people have with the show, he would gracefully step away from writing episodes for it. I am also fairly sure that there are places that he cringes while watching episodes as well. That is just human nature.

[Versiroth]

I think George is right now sitting in a bathtub made of gold filled full of money and he is manically laughing.

(At least that is what I would be doing right now if HBO backed up and unloaded a dump truck full of cash at my house that they did to his.)

To answer on a more serious note, I really believe that if took the kinds of issues that some people have with the show, he would gracefully step away from writing episodes for it. I am also fairly sure that there are places that he cringes while watching episodes as well. That is just human nature.

I woudn't doubt if he didn't get scripts well in advance of the shoots. He is one of the producers.

[Tadco26]

The rangers were also mounted at the time and she was on foot. I still don't really understand why Jon recaptured Ygritte in the show. Did he think Qhorin was going to change his mind when he brought her back as a prisoner? Even if Qhorin wanted to keep her alive, they didn't have the food to feed her or the man power to guard her, and Qhorin said as much to Jon. If Jon didn't feel he could kill her, why did he volunteer? He wasn't given the duty by Qhorin in the show, he asked for it. And of course Rattleshirt letting Jon go because he defended himself from an unprovoked attack doesn't make much sense either.