[Book Spoilers] Qhorin Half-Brain..err I mean Half-Hand

[Nine of Spades]

I think they fundamentally botched the characterization of Jon in the show, and Qhorin is a casualty. A lot of the changes dont bother me, but the Jon chapter changes are just fundamental and profound. Its just a different character. That doesnt mean the TV show is ruined for people who havent read the books, but for people who are readers and like jon, it can incredibly grating. Its not like the cost of filming the book scenes would have been astronomical, or that the Jon narrative was terribly sprawling. It probably needed some changes, but they didnt have to be nearly as major as they were.

Again, it probably doesnt ruin things for people who didnt read the books, it really is good tv. But for a lot of book readers who liked Jons story its just sad to see an imposter out there.

[Jojosh]

I suspect they really want to test the waters with Jon turning his cloak next season. Him falling in love with Ygritte and his lack of a connection with quorin is going to really play on his mind.

[Hear Us Roar]

Qhorin and jon needed another scene or two to set up the plan.

[Nine of Spades]

I woudn't doubt if he didn't get scripts well in advance of the shoots. He is one of the producers.

I get the feeling Martin is so geeked out that people want to adapt his work, that he is willing to let people do what they want. I dont think hes a IP control freak. I bet if you asked him and got an honest answer, hes just happy people like the show, and if its not "true" to his work thats ok with him.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Folks,

A gentle reminder from the FAQ that if you post inflammatory stuff that doesn't add to a discussion it will be (and have been) deleted.

Also, those posts that quoted the inflammatory comment have also been deleted.

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[/MOD]

[Still_Servant]

"We are the watchers on the wall."

Once Halfhand whispers these dying words to Jon, I felt that the scene somewhat redeemed itself.

I don't like the changes they made to the Halfhand/Snow plot, but I think I can live with it now. The line above is an awesome line and it made Jon realize what Halfhand was doing. He's basically telling him, "You will always be a man of the Night's Watch."

My biggest gripe is that I don't really see a logical reason for changing it so much from the book. One extra scene could have changed everything and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Just one scene.

[Gannicus]

The show, for the most part, has been awesome. I also could care less if the show makes changes to the story, if the changes are better. However the Jon story line has been the show's biggest blunder to date.

Still, I think it was obvious that Jon knew what QH wanted him to do. They were just putting on a good show for the wildlings. However we missed so much else here.

1. QH asking for Jon to range with him.

2. Jon letting Yigrette live and QH telling him he wanted to see what kind of man he was.

3. And most importantly the completely badass stands of Qhorin and the other rangers trying to warn the wall.

I thought these we some of the most exciting chapters in ACOK. It was weird and disappointing to see them cut.

Instead Jon asks to range and his mistake leads to the death of his fellow rangers. I don't think Jon seems like a total teenage emo wussy like many on here claim but I don't see the purpose of this change.

I get time is an issue. But you can't give me one less Dany hissy fit "my dragons this and that" moments to save a scene for rangers of the nights watch being absolutely epic?

But I guess what's done is done.

[Mediumjon Umber]

I get the feeling Martin is so geeked out that people want to adapt his work, that he is willing to let people do what they want. I dont think hes a IP control freak. I bet if you asked him and got an honest answer, hes just happy people like the show, and if its not "true" to his work thats ok with him.

Martin does control his IP. If he for example ever catches you with a fanfiction, he'll hang you like a Frey.

[Nine of Spades]

Martin does control his IP. If he for example ever catches you with a fanfiction, he'll hang you like a Frey.

Let me clarify what I mean by control freak. Yes, he isnt going to let just anybody do the thing. But once he greenlights it, he isnt trying to micromanage the project.

[Ghost Rider]

Qhorin - One Brother inside Mances camp is worth 100 outside.

Jon - They'll never trust me.

Qhorin - They will... if you do what must be done.

*pushes john down and screams*

Qhorin - Traitor! You planned to give us up to the Wildlings!

Smart!Wildings - What's that little show for? How could he have possibly planned to give them up to the Wildlings? Even we wouldn't have suspected QH of such stupidity as to not being able to follow a boy's traces through the snow and get caught up while doing that? How could that stupid boy have planned something like that then? It's obviously a ruse... and a stupid one at that

Show!Wildlings - Oh, QH calls the boy a traitor. Must be true!!! Can't imagine anything else...

Later...

Qhorin - Die you traitor!

*They fight...

Smart!Wildlings - Oh, so they go on with their game. Let's enjoy the little show and watch just how far they are prepared to go.

Jon realizing what Qhorin had meant he disarms and kills him*

Qhorin to Jon - We are the watchers that guard the night.....

Smart!Wildlings - oh wow, that was ... far. Maybe QH's reputation for being badass was not totally undeserved. Even though his plan lacked subtlety, he didn't lack courage at least. Would have died soon anyway though - Wildlings go on to promise Jon that he would be one of them, after he tells Mance all he wants to know. Little does Jon know that they don't plan to keep that promise...

Show!Wildlings - hey, that boy has killed QH! That must mean that the boy's with us now and QH obviously spoke the truth! Doesn't matter that we would have executed/ tortured him to death soon anyway.

Audience - Ahh! That's what he ment when he told Jon he had to do what must be done!

Or

Audience - Yep, exactly what I figured was happening.

Audience - wow, we're that much smarter then the Wildlings. We have figured it out, while they are totally clueless!

[Justin Danford]

My biggest gripe is they never had The half-hand ask Jon if that sword of his was sharp. It was my favorite part of their exchange in the books and is a nice revelation moment when you realize why he keeps asking.

They could have tosssed it in at the end of that first talk he has once theyve both been captured and then again right before they break out in their fight.

This would have made it overtly clear what he wanted, and would allow the audience to assume that Jon had at least some sense of what was needed to be done once the fight broke out.

The way they handled it really makes it seem Jon kills him out of anger. D&D seem to place the audience in dark on these things sometimes, as if we were the wildlings who are now fooled into thinking Jon has turned his cloak (which will be shown to us as false in season 3).

I think thats a bad way to do it. For instance, in the throne room scene in which the farce is played to name Margery Joffery's future queen, it isnt clear the whole thing was just a show put on for court. I had several non-readers remark how the acting in that scene was terrible, and when I told them that was done to intimate the farce then they got it. Vary's could have at least given an eye-roll or something.

[Harrad]

The HBO series handled the Quorin-Jon thread like the book. The details were different, but the clues were all there.

[Rodrik Moss]

They could've doen the entire Jon story line like it was done in the book, in the TV series. They could've replaced the "I'm walking around with this wildling girl and lost my friends"-BS with them running south while not even clearly seeing their enemies and losing one by one of the rangers who hold them off. Then having Ygritte come back with Lord o' Bones and having Snow defeat Qhorin after he tells him "You must not balk, whatever is asked of you..." (I hate how they cut that line out). Having Ghost help him take down Qhorin. It could've been achieved exactely that way, with the same airtime they spent on Snow now, and the same budget (the only thing that would be expensive of these is having Ghost come into the scene and bite Qhorin's leg, but that's it).

The only reason why they did it that I can imagine, is cause they wanted more Ygritte and some naughty remarks in there. It cheapens his story and his person. It's quite sad how this season is being handled. (Nudity/flirting/gore over story) Or maybe they don't want to show Snow's warg capabilities. Since they seem to want to make Bran the crippled unique paranormal wizard kid.

[Leuf]

My take on the scene is that Qhorin understands that Jon wasn't able to kill Ygritte earlier. In the show Jon and Qhorin don't spend any time together after that except as prisoners, so why would Qhorin think Jon could kill him in cold blood now? I believe Jon understands what he wants from him, but Qhorin doesn't give him any time to think about it, and he gets him angry while he's at it. Jon knows what he has to do, since he does it even though Qhorin is disarmed, but he doesn't get the time to process it until it's over.

The difference is that the show didn't give Jon a chance to prove himself to Qhorin. The scene follows logically from that change.

[Mulled Wino]

True. Changing written text is fine, but you then throw the gauntlet down that you have something better up your sleeve. This plot shows a fairly bumbling Qhorin, which was unfortunate. They could have made things more clear that Jon knew his orders rather than killing an unarmed man out of anger. And the Halfhand tripping due to Ghost made it reasonable for Jon to slit his throat. This Qhorin had no reason to be bested and it appears forced.

Although your Marty Stu reference is waaay off. I agree with this. The chase and subsequent fight with JS and QH was Arguably the most exciting plotline in CoK

[Mulled Wino]

My take on the scene is that Qhorin understands that Jon wasn't able to kill Ygritte earlier. In the show Jon and Qhorin don't spend any time together after that except as prisoners, so why would Qhorin think Jon could kill him in cold blood now? I believe Jon understands what he wants from him, but Qhorin doesn't give him any time to think about it, and he gets him angry while he's at it. Jon knows what he has to do, since he does it even though Qhorin is disarmed, but he doesn't get the time to process it until it's over.

The difference is that the show didn't give Jon a chance to prove himself to Qhorin. The scene follows logically from that change.

Jon snow that couldnt kill ygritte and gets punkes out and disrespected by Mormont all the sudden is the man that qh thinks is going to go on the tougest ever undercover assignment in NW history. Seems totaly legit to me?!?!?!?!?!?!!

[Mulled Wino]

The HBO series handled the Quorin-Jon thread like the book. The details were different, but the clues were all there.

No they didnt. The only thing that was the same was that they "fought" and jon won and possibly turned his cloak.

[Leuf]

Jon snow that couldnt kill ygritte and gets punkes out and disrespected by Mormont all the sudden is the man that qh thinks is going to go on the tougest ever undercover assignment in NW history. Seems totaly legit to me?!?!?!?!?!?!!

First, what is so tough about this undercover assignment after being accepted in? He has to sit around and fuck a redhead. A tough job is being on the Fist when the Others come a knockin. Second, once they are captured what does Qhorin have to lose? They are dead anyway. He got himself killed before they could torture anything out of him and he has a long shot of something worthwhile coming out of it. Seems like a good idea to me.

[Indigo Snow]

Was talking to a non-book-reading friend yesterday about this episode, and he totally thought Jon killed Qhorin because Qhorin pissed him off with his insults. Ugh! I mean, sure, the half-assed set up was there, and he probably just wasn't paying attention. But to be honest, I didn't even catch the set up on the first watch, and totally understand why my friend would see it that way.

WHY did they have to make it so ambiguous? Some cheap cliffhanger? It just pisses me off that they are making Jon look so stupid and passive! :( And it's not just with this scene. At first I thought it was Kit's acting that seemed off, but then I realise he's really doing the best he can with his material. They took away Jon's choice and action at every turn, and basically made him screw up everything. The killing of Qhorin was suppose to be his final moment to shine this season, yet they've made no effort to show his struggles, and motivations. It just looked more odd than anything.

Other than Jon & Ygritte's great chemistry (thanks to the actors), Jon's storyline was imo one of the weaker ones this season. I guess it was more of a transitioning season for Jon. Really hope they do a better job next season! So many things to look forward to!! ;)

[Mulled Wino]

First, what is so tough about this undercover assignment after being accepted in? He has to sit around and fuck a redhead. A tough job is being on the Fist when the Others come a knockin. Second, once they are captured what does Qhorin have to lose? They are dead anyway. He got himself killed before they could torture anything out of him and he has a long shot of something worthwhile coming out of it. Seems like a good idea to me.

remember its mance that has to accept him, so that's not easy right there. oh, and I'm not sure if you read the books but there's a lot of trying times ahead for jon. Many wildlings want to kill jon, he was attacked and almost lost an eye. plus they caught him lying to protect his brothers and almost killed him there. I have about 10 more examples, but I"m not sure if you read the books and I don't want to spoil it any more.

it's unfathomable that the wildlings would just accept jon unless they are going to just accept him as a hostage and stick him in a cart because he's part stark. And even worse that ygritte would actually still accept jon under the furs after she chumped him out so bad.

It's inconsistent in the least to say that QH would try and have jon cross sides after proving to be such a boob. think about it. would he send Tarly to corss sides? Why didn't he send an experienced ranger to infiltrate in the past then?