What if R+L=J is proven false?

[LadyMary]

I can't see any other reasonable, not-cheap alternative. I just can't. Would the series be wrecked if it wasn't true, no. But at this point, it's upwards of 98% certain, and the missing 2% is troll insurance.

Will Jon's parentage matter to the plot? I think so — otherwise, why not just make him Ned's bastard, or why keep it a secret for so long? — but not in the way people think. Everyone asking this question seems to view it solely from the context of Jon becoming the king on the Iron Throne. And I think that's the wrong way to approach it. I don't think it's about Jon ever becoming king, but rather, about Jon fulfilling the prophecies and/or being the one to fight the good fight successfully. While I think that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and that he's legitimate, I don't see him ever becoming king, nor do I want him to. His role is bigger than that. I think a large point of the story is that it doesn't matter who sits on the throne.

I was going to post something similar, but you said it well enough just to concur with what you've written - especially the part I bolded.

I think the whole "game of thrones" going on south of the Wall is distraction for the people of Westeros, and the real war and threat is the one that most of the people believe is nothing more than a myth. I think Jon's role (and probably Daenerys the Conqueror's role for that matter) is about saving the living from the cold destruction of the Others. Assuming Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, he is the embodiment of "Ice and Fire".

In a way, Jon finding out that he is R+L's son kind of doubly sucks, which fits GRRM's tendency to make something that sounds "good" in theory (i.e., being a Prince or the heir to Rhaegar) end up being not so good. Imaging that Jon finds out the man he loved as a Father is not really and lied to him his whole life, the man who was his father was reputed to have raped his mother (true or not), that he's still a bastard anyway (I think) or if he's legitimate, his Kingship is moot because ( a.) there's another claimed son of Rhaegar with a better claim, ( b. ) a sister of Rhaegar with three dragons and an army are also vying for the throne, and ( c.) his biological father is dead and the Targaryen regime is ended anyway and he'd have to get in line and fight for it if he wanted the throne. Why would Jon even want the Iron Throne? He's a Northman by culture, a worshiper of the Old Gods and sees what the real threat is to the realm. It might satisfy some desire to know the truth, but I don't see how it would change anything for him.

So... yes, I believe R+L=J. I'm not sure if I believe the Jon is a Targaryen bastard or a trueborn son of Rhaegar (although the Kingsguard at the ToJ is good evidence that he might be legit).

No, I don't believe it's bad writing.

No, although I'd be really surprised, the story won't be ruined for me if R+L doesn't = J as long as the truth is just as interesting and makes sense in context. It just seems like the clues in the book are too numerous and cleverly laid out for it be anything but R+L=J.

[Raging Bear]

I love what everyone has had to say. I tried to keep my personal opinion hidden when I made this thread to encourage sharing rather than attacking or defending my position.

Anyway I this it's safe now tell you what I think.

I don't believe in R+L=J.

I see the evidence in the books, and yes, I think ned was hiding Jon's true parentage from him, and yes I think something important happened at the ToJ, but I don't think they are necessarily related.

I can't see GRRM making Jon AA (which I think there is stronger evidence for) and be TPTWP. With it's massive cast, numerous POV's, rounded, morally ambiguous characters, and multiple, interweaving storylines, the one thing asoiaf most definitely doesn't have is a central protagonist on a hero's journey.

A young man, exiled from society, turns out to be the lost heir to the kingdom, and a prophesized hero who will save the world from destruction?

Many good stories fit that mould, but not asoiaf.

It is jsut too inconsistent with the books so far for the story to take that direction.

[4rcane]

if its false, then I will think George Martin changed his original storyline just to screw with fans. George Martin have mention this in previous interviews that in the old days before the internet, theories like j-l=L (he didn't mention this by name) are only picked up my small percentage of the reader base but with the internet such theories are picked up and spread much more easily.

You do not make Jon's mother to such a big secret in the storyline, then continuously add false leads like Eddward telling Robert, John's mother was Wylla, then whathisname squire telling Arya another name if Jon's mother wasn't someone really really important. Its bad story telling by giving so many false leads that leads to nowhere

[David Selig]

Oh, you kids and your zany sarcasm. It's weird to imagine that the (arguably) obvious retcon would somehow make you like the books more. :P

It won't make me like the books more (or less). I believe in R+L=J, I just don't care about it much, and all the obsession with this theory on this board amuses me.

[facetree]

If it isn't true, then it isn't. *Shrug*

I see no reason why it isn't true, though. It's certainly the most viable theory out there so far. If there's a more convincing one, then I'd believe that. But I haven't seen any that convinced me yet.

[Winter's Knight]

It won't make me like the books more (or less). I believe in R+L=J, I just don't care about it much, and all the obsession with this theory on this board amuses me.

It's the Jon fanbase, I'm sure of it.

[facetree]

It's the Jon fanbase, I'm sure of it.

Some people just like to be critical :) I don't really like Jon that much, possibly because I find him a bit whiny at times-I prefer Tyrion :D But the R+L=J theory is just the most plausible one at the moment. If there's a better one, show me with all the evidence, and I'll start believing in it.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

if it proves false then all the secrecy would be pointless so I'd have to say that it would be beyond disappointing.

[kha_alim]

Do you think it is possible for GRRM to finish the series in a consistent, satisfying manner without R+L=J being true?

I think no matter what George writes it will not be satisfying to a lot of people. He said in an interview at one time that the ending will be "bitter-sweet". I belive there will be a lot of people that will not like the bitter part.

On the other hand, it is George we're talking about here, so he CAN write the rest story even without Jon. He may decide not to bring Jon back from the dead, in witch case his parentage would really not matter. Even if he is brought back to life, his parentage might not matter at all in the story, a few other characters might make note of it, but that would be just about it. To be precise i will give you the example of Maester Aemon. He was a Targarien, asked to become the king of the realm, but he chose to take the black. When you join the nights watch you leave behind you'r former life, your old brothers and sister and the brothers of the nights watch become your family. In this sense R+L=J would be for Jon something like, "If only I would have known this sooner, I might not have joined the NW, but now, I have vows to keep, a realm to protect".

Someone said that not a lot of readers would notice R+L=J. And I can attest to that. I first read about it on these forums. And even then I was like wtf is this stupid ****. The hints are very well hidden. On first read I think no1 notices something like this. After reading all the "evidence" from this forum and links to various places, I now think that it is a real possibility, but I still don't think it matters that much in the larger picture, simply because Danny and her stroryline exists.

The way I see it, Jons purpose was fulfilled in Dance. He stopped the wildlings from taking Castle Black, became lord commander, and during this time he fortified the walls defenses. He brought in the wildlings, and set them to defend the wall, something no other character would have done. Jon fans may argue that he's needed to defend the wall, against the others, but he's not. Any man would do everything they can in that situation, and now that the wildlings are on the other side of the wall there is no1 who can send them back. And the wall it self does not need to stand by the end of winds.

On the prophesies side, most of them can be attributed to Danny. The dragon needs 3 heads, and Jon may be a Targ, but George also said that the 3 heads need not be only Targs. Jon can be the prince that was promised, but what did the promise say? Did it promise that from prince he would become king? I think not, cuz then it would be the king that was promised. Does it say that the prince will survive, will defeat the others and live happily ever after? No.

And lastly, there are tons of storylines. Any single one of them does not matter that much as every one of them. In short R+L=J or R+L=/=J does not matter that much.

[Toccs]

I can't see GRRM making Jon AA (which I think there is stronger evidence for) and be TPTWP. With it's massive cast, numerous POV's, rounded, morally ambiguous characters, and multiple, interweaving storylines, the one thing asoiaf most definitely doesn't have is a central protagonist on a hero's journey.

A young man, exiled from society, turns out to be the lost heir to the kingdom, and a prophesized hero who will save the world from destruction?

Many good stories fit that mould, but not asoiaf.

It is jsut too inconsistent with the books so far for the story to take that direction.

That's I think is a fairly common complaint people have about R+L=J and Jon = AA, but (and I'm not attacking you here) I think it is seriously flawed.

Just because one of the characters turns out to be a secret heir to the kingdom and a long predicted hero does not in any way diminish the myriad other characters in the story. Jon being revealed as AA and TPTWP does not change what happened to Arya, Robb, Tywin, Tyrion, Davos or anybody else and it doesn't somehow make those characters any less important then they already are.

Yes this series is multi-layered and complex but it is still just a story. There is a plot and certain characters have certain roles to play in resolving the conflict and some roles will be larger then others.

That can't possibly be inconsistent with these books, because no story can exist without such literary devices.

[Winter's Knight]

Some people just like to be critical :) I don't really like Jon that much, possibly because I find him a bit whiny at times-I prefer Tyrion :D But the R+L=J theory is just the most plausible one at the moment. If there's a better one, show me with all the evidence, and I'll start believing in it.

Don't mind me, I'm just crabby. :P

[Bushido]

I think fans would be very p!ssed :D They'd be like "Justice.Vengeance. Fire and burnt books" :D

re: Jon as the Iron Throne heir,it would have some merit in story telling if he ended up on the throne,and was intending to fight The Others,and Dany ends up fighting the Others,while was going to win the throne. (or take it back)

[Raging Bear]

Just because one of the characters turns out to be a secret heir to the kingdom and a long predicted hero does not in any way diminish the myriad other characters in the story. Jon being revealed as AA and TPTWP does not change what happened to Arya, Robb, Tywin, Tyrion, Davos or anybody else and it doesn't somehow make those characters any less important then they already are.

I have respectfully disagree. While Jon being AA nad TPTWP does change what happened to the other characters, it does diminish what will happen to them. It would make Jon a protagonist in all three major plotlines (if he's Rhaegar's son, he would be the head of a dragon too, right?) It's too neat and tidy. Every other plotline both big and small has been about conflict. Confict where neither side is good or evil. It's not between right and wrong. "Should" is not a word in GRRM's vocabulary. There are good people and bad people on both sides and no matter who wins, someone is going to get screwed who doesn't "deserve" it, and someone who "shouldn't" be rewarded for their actions will be. The good and the bad cannot be separated and exist on both sides.

These characters need to come into conflict. These plotlines need to collide, not peacefully merge under the guiding light of Jon the Redeemer.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

I wouldn't say that it's bad writing if readers spot the hints. I'd say it's really well written if clues people read between the lines turn out to be true. If some random history comes up in TWTOW as well as a few new characters we've never heard of who propose Jon's real parentage; that would be bad writing.

"coughYoung Griffcough"

[Sapphire]

I feel like R+L=J ties everything up far better than any other theory out there. It won't be the end of the world if proven false, but then why make Jon's parentage such a long standing mystery if it won't factor into the story.

[Dragonstar]

I've said it before - GRRM isn't our bitch, and we arent his bitches either. He acknowledges tgat he has some the best, savviest fans - that nothing slips past them. I would HIGHLY doubt that GRRM changes a major plot point because his readers figured it out. This is a man who has sold millions of copies of his books all over the world - he's not trying to play the one up game with us. He started crafting this series what - 20 years ago. Before this forum and its theorizing. And he has mentioned that broadly he knows the fates of all his major characters... For the last time, if R + L doesn't turn out to be Jon, it won't be because we guessed it. It would be because he's had something else in mind for Jon. That said, I see no possibility for Jon not to be Rhaegar & Lyannas son. Thank you, that is all. I apologize for the tone, it just always irks me when I hear people think that he would change a story line just so he could pull a gotcha on his fan base.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

It wont be proven false. Hopefully it'll be proven completely irrelevant when Jon announces that while you can't choose your parents, you can choose your family, renouncing his Targ genes/heritage and carrying on life as the bastard of a Stark.

[Ben amido]

Reading this post and other threads i realise ppl hav varied kind of reactions when it comes to JON SNOW.

either they like him or don't...... but when we are discussing this topic regarding his parentage we should keep our bias out of this and think of the whole story.

cuz the story is abut difeerent characters with different approach in life and different way of achieving goals. but it is also abut the way characters develop over the period and what kind of a person one must be.

dany has become more confident woman though she has more arrogance that when she started out but yet there is a woman who mean business. same can be said abut jon. personally he is the modern and a better ersion of aragorn. he is a bastard with a mysterious heritage and he is on to become a important person to change the world just like dany.

even if the whole R+L=J turns out to be false still jon snow is a man who is going to play an important role in the survival of the world of westros. he is a capable leader with a good heart aand strong sense of duty and honor like his(supposedly) father ned. R+L=J or not he will either die fighting or end up as a great hero like bran the builder and the storm king......

but i thnk R+L=j theory would make his character development even more intriguing and interesting cuz as far as we know him he wants to be a great lord but he wants to earn everything not be served on silver platter. and he will continue this till the end.

i hope it turns out true and jon sits on Iron Throne but his life would not be an easy one and to the end he will hate being a KING.