[Book & TV Spoilers] Insightful interview with writer Bryan Cogman

[King Tommen]

I still think that Catelyn as portrayed on the show is sympathetic despite some of the actions she has taken. She was very emphatic that Robb should not trust Theon or the Greyjoys and she was the voice of reason during the Renly/Stannis parlay. She also got Renly to agree to the alliance with Robb before he was assassinated which made the whole reason she was chosen to be Robb's emissary there look like a good decision. Additionally, she made very logical arguments to Robb about why breaking his betrothal to the Frey's was not a good idea without being a shrew about it which he mostly just chose to ignore.

I don't think D&D came up with the best way to portray her interactions with Robb when it came to releasing Jaime as they did end up writing themselves into a corner when it came to motivating Robb to break his betrothal. That being said, let's not pretend that Martin's Catelyn is not a compromised character as well and it's not like she was ever beloved by the fanbase. Before the HBO project was ever developed, there was a fair large segment of the book fanbase that blamed her for many of the events and did not look upon the character favourably.

I think there is a segment of the readership that believes that Catelyn generally has received the short end of the stick when it comes to the fanbase opinion on her and was hoping that the show would reinforce their opinion. The show instead has made her gaffes more clearcut and less nuanced which I'm sure bothers some of these fans but I don't think there's a demonstration that D&D "don't have interest in the character" or are attempting to demonize her. They probably have shared an interpretation of the character that many have and decided to emphasize what they believe her role in the events were.

[Daske]

I guess I may just be quibbling about the word 'blame' and how it is applied.

I just can't see how the blame can be on anyone other than Robb himself. Cat's actions and Robb loving Talisa only became connected when Robb made them connected by marrying her while upset. Cat's actions have no connection at all to Talisa by themselves.

Is this site always going to make me over-anaylize everything?

[Ran]

She also got Renly to agree to the alliance with Robb

No, she didn't. It's much the same as in ACoK -- he's willing to allow Robb to call himself king so long as he swears fealty to Renly, and both in the novel and in the show (just look at the look on Catelyn's face) she knows that will never happen.

They probably have shared an interpretation of the character that many have and decided to emphasize what they believe her role in the events were.

If that's true, they're less discerning and intelligent than I credited them to be. I figured they just kept grabbing things away from Catelyn to pass on to other people, and simplifying her character, out of a certain cynicism and to patch up some mistakes they made in breaking down the season. If it's just because they have a shallow understanding on the character, that'd be sadder still.

[Khal Porno]

I don't think the producers dislike Catelyn and have no use for her character, she's one of the most important characters on the show, and she gets quite a bit of screen time, more so than most. If the producers didn't like the character she'd hardly be in the show.

Maybe I need to watch season 2 again, but it seemed to me that her biggest motivation for freeing Jaime was that she wanted to save her daughters, and I seem to remember that was made clear to Robb. I don't really feel like watching all those episodes again just to find out, but as I was watching it the first time it seemed clear to me that that's what was going on and it was what the producers intended, so it didn't seem illogical at all. I don't see how that's "bad writing."

[Khal-a-bunga]

I don't think the producers dislike Catelyn and have no use for her character, she's one of the most important characters on the show, and she gets quite a bit of screen time, more so than most. If the producers didn't like the character she'd hardly be in the show.

Maybe I need to watch season 2 again, but it seemed to me that her biggest motivation for freeing Jaime was that she wanted to save her daughters, and I seem to remember that was made clear to Robb. I don't really feel like watching all those episodes again just to find out, but as I was watching it the first time it seemed clear to me that that's what was going on and it was what the producers intended, so it didn't seem illogical at all. I don't see how that's "bad writing."

The series of events, as they occurred in the show, basically went like this...

- Scene between Tyrion and Littlefinger, where the idea of trading Sansa and Arya for Jaime is introduced.

- Scene between Littlefinger and Catelyn at Renly's camp.

- Brienne swears her oath of loyalty to Catelyn.

- Jaime attempts to escape; kills the Karstark guard. Lord Karstark wants revenge.

- Catelyn releases Jaime, as she thinks he won't survive the night. Word has already reached her regarding Winterfell. Her husband is dead, her two youngest boys are captives, her oldest is fighting a war to both save Sansa & Arya, and to gain independence in the North. She's already been given an offer to trade Jaime for the girls, and with his precarious situation at the camp, it seemed like the right thing to do.

Pretty clear series of events. Doesn't strike me as bad writing, despite the fact that Catelyn doesn't "justify" her position on what she did to Robb. She let Jaime Lannister escape, therefore that he might not have survived the night becomes irrelevant. Lord Karstark and/or his men very well may have killed him, but she denied them that opportunity by letting him go. What good would attempting to spread the "blame" more evenly do, at that point?

[Ran]

The "good" it does is that Robb doesn't decide that she's betrayed him out of pure selfish desire for her children and reckless disregard of his position. It means he can't so easily marginalize her, or need to take Karstarks outrage as if it's not tainted by the fact that it was his men that were putting Jaime in danger. It means that the "betrayal" may be no more than initiative taken in an ugly situation. That's all good for her relationship to him, and her influence with him, and in general when it comes to the truth.

It's bad writing. It takes the main cause of Catelyn acting as and when she did and buries it so that Robb has a nice, easy through-line to what the writers want him to do. It's jarringly transparent.

[Khal-a-bunga]

The "good" it does is that Robb doesn't decide that she's betrayed him out of pure selfish desire for her children and reckless disregard of his position. It means he can't so easily marginalize her, or need to take Karstarks outrage as if it's not tainted by the fact that it was his men that were putting Jaime in danger. It means that the "betrayal" may be no more than initiative taken in an ugly situation. That's all good for her relationship to him, and her influence with him, and in general when it comes to the truth.

It's bad writing. It takes the main cause of Catelyn acting as and when she did and buries it so that Robb has a nice, easy through-line to what the writers want him to do. It's jarringly transparent.

But Lord Karstark and his men didn't actually do anything, is my point. Of course Karstark was going on about revenge and executing Jaime for his crimes, but none of those things happened. Catelyn made sure of that by letting Jaime go, so there isn't any real way of knowing if it would have happened or not.

In a case like that, I personally wouldn't say, "I only did it because I felt that his life was in danger." because my real reasoning would have still been securing my daughters' safety. She took responsibility for her actions, in my eyes.

I also don't see how that allows the writers to totally (or mainly, even) justify Robb choosing to marry Talisa. That decision comes from a number of things, all explained in the context of the show: Robb sees what happened to his father because of his loyalty; he is betrayed by Theon, who he had looked at like a brother; his own men - particularly Roose - question his ethics as they pertain to dealing with and handling his enemies; Catelyn does what we've discussed; and perhaps most importantly, Robb loves Talisa.

It's this combination of things (and many more, I'd imagine: Renly vying to be King despite the line of succession; the situation with Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen's true parentage) that bring Robb to the point where he chooses to follow his heart, and stupidly break his vow with the Frey family. I felt the decision was a stupid one in the books as well, although for different reasoning, obviously.

So yes, perhaps Catelyn could have more thoroughly explained her reasoning to Robb, but I don't know that that bit of writing was used in the way you're saying it was. There was a lot more to Robb's decision than that one simple act of betrayal by his mother, and even if she had carefully explained her reasoning to Robb, it wouldn't have changed the reality of what actually happened.

[Daske]

I also don't see how that allows the writers to totally (or mainly, even) justify Robb choosing to marry Talisa. That decision comes from a number of things, all explained in the context of the show: Robb sees what happened to his father because of his loyalty; he is betrayed by Theon, who he had looked at like a brother; his own men - particularly Roose - question his ethics as they pertain to dealing with and handling his enemies; Catelyn does what we've discussed; and perhaps most importantly, Robb loves Talisa.

...

There was a lot more to Robb's decision than that one simple act of betrayal by his mother, and even if she had carefully explained her reasoning to Robb, it wouldn't have changed the reality of what actually happened.

This is spot-on.

[protar]

This is spot-on.

No it's not because D+D have flat out told us that Cat was the reason Robb slept with Talisa.

I remain convinced that it's all part of their plan to give Cat the blame for the RW.

[Khal Porno]

No it's not because D+D have flat out told us that Cat was the reason Robb slept with Talisa.

I remain convinced that it's all part of their plan to give Cat the blame for the RW.

Can you point us to where you heard this?

[protar]

Can you point us to where you heard this?

It's in the behind the episode interview doohicky for episode 8.

[Khal Porno]

It's in the behind the episode interview doohicky for episode 8.

http://www.youtube.c...channel&list=UL

Robb's sense of honor and his ideals were built on his father and his mother both...he's fighting this war and his mother has just done something terrible in his eyes...it makes him wonder "why are you following this code to the letter and why are you so committed to loyalty, honor, dignity, duty, you know, to the exclusion of all else when nobody else around you really is, and is that a smart thing to do or is that a stupid thing to do?" His father was that way, what happened to his father? ...It all becomes too much in a way that's, I think, weirdly reminiscent of- of what Jaime says, where it's just at a certain point all of the, the different promises that you've made start to conflict with each other and something has to give somewhere.

Robb definitely is, is hyper-aware of what it would mean to break his oath to Walder Frey...What's so great about Talisa is that she asks deep, kind of probing questions...she's forcing him to confront his own idealism in a critical way that I think he finds challenging, but also makes her much more attractive to him. Maybe it's almost a bit of-of...realism kind of seeping into his world? And...recognition and acknowledgment that people aren't perfect and that sometimes your own wishes, and your own desires, and your own happiness does need to play a role in your life. I think if it was a crack in his worldview that let all of these questions seep in a little bit.

If this is what you're referring to, Weiss isn't "flat out" telling us Catelyn is the reason Robb slept with Talisa, he's saying that what she did was part of what made him start to question his ideals and Talisa makes him confront with his worldview, which is part of why he is attracted to her and makes him think that perhaps he should consider what he wants. But it's clear that having sex with her is Robb's choice and his responsibility.

On a related note, Weiss basically outlines here what it is about Talisa that appeals to those of us who like her, for those who can't understand why.

[protar]

http://www.youtube.c...channel&list=UL

If this is what you're referring to, Weiss isn't "flat out" telling us Catelyn is the reason Robb slept with Talisa, he's saying that what she did was part of what made him start to question his ideals and Talisa makes him confront with his worldview, which is part of why he is attracted to her and makes him think that perhaps he should consider what he wants. But it's clear that having sex with her is Robb's choice and his responsibility.

On a related note, Weiss basically outlines here what it is about Talisa that appeals to those of us who like her, for those who can't understand why.

Well yes actually, he does essentially say that Robb sleeps with Talisa because Cat freed Jaime, which makes Robb basically just say "Ok screw honour." It doesn't matter how much pseudo-philosophical nonsense Weiss covers it up with, that's his point.

And all that stuff about Talisa? That just sounds cringe-inducingly pretentious to me. I find the writing of her character to be poor and cliched and again, no matter how much they try to make it sound like she's deep and interesting, and that they've tried to make her a vessel of deep moral values, I'm just not buying it. Because the fact is, Talisa's just a little bit of D+D fanfic they made up after they got all excited reading about Volantis (which coincidentally is in the very interview that this thread is supposed to be about.).

[Khal Porno]

Well yes actually, he does essentially say that Robb sleeps with Talisa because Cat freed Jaime, which makes Robb basically just say "Ok screw honour." It doesn't matter how much pseudo-philosophical nonsense Weiss covers it up with, that's his point.

And all that stuff about Talisa? That just sounds cringe-inducingly pretentious to me. I find the writing of her character to be poor and cliched and again, no matter how much they try to make it sound like she's deep and interesting, and that they've tried to make her a vessel of deep moral values, I'm just not buying it. Because the fact is, Talisa's just a little bit of D+D fanfic they made up after they got all excited reading about Volantis (which coincidentally is in the very interview that this thread is supposed to be about.).

OK first off, no, he does not say that Robb has sex with Talisa because Catelyn freed Jaime and he said "screw honor." That's ridiculous, and it's NOT what he said at all. I know that's what you want to think, but what he said doesn't bear that out at all. He makes it clear that it was Robb's decision based on what he wanted.

Second, how can you call that pretentious? He explained what the intent was with that character. That is exactly what I liked about her and that's essentially what my very first post here said, that I liked how she challenged him, and I had not seen this interview until this morning. I came to the same conclusion myself, so clearly she was written well enough that their intent was clear to viewers who were not prejudiced against her because she's not Jeyne Westerling. And no where does he say "it's so much better, and we're geniuses that we came up with this." That would have been pretentious, but he just outlines what they were seeking to accomplish with her as a character and how she affects Robb's story.

Third, as far as "fanfic" (groan), I believe they said somewhere that she was originally written to be "Jeyne" but fleshed out a bit - since she has no character in the books, they have to fill in the gaps. They decided to make her Volantene after they'd cast Oona and they were thinking forward to how Volantis will figure into the story - I'm sure Martin clued them into what that will be - and they want to create a continuity rather than just dumping it on the audience in season four or five.

If you don't like her then fine, but there are many of us who do and who find her to be well-written, and we are not "wrong" despite how much you want that to be the case.

[protar]

OK first off, no, he does not say that Robb has sex with Talisa because Catelyn freed Jaime and he said "screw honor." That's ridiculous, and it's NOT what he said at all. I know that's what you want to think, but what he said doesn't bear that out at all. He makes it clear that it was Robb's decision based on what he wanted.

Second, how can you call that pretentious? He explained what the intent was with that character. That is exactly what I liked about her and that's essentially what my very first post here said, that I liked how she challenged him, and I had not seen this interview until this morning. I came to the same conclusion myself, so clearly she was written well enough that their intent was clear to viewers who were not prejudiced against her because she's not Jeyne Westerling. And no where does he say "it's so much better, and we're geniuses that we came up with this." That would have been pretentious, but he just outlines what they were seeking to accomplish with her as a character and how she affects Robb's story.

Third, as far as "fanfic" (groan), I believe they said somewhere that she was originally written to be "Jeyne" but fleshed out a bit - since she has no character in the books, they have to fill in the gaps. They decided to make her Volantene after they'd cast Oona and they were thinking forward to how Volantis will figure into the story - I'm sure Martin clued them into what that will be - and they want to create a continuity rather than just dumping it on the audience in season four or five.

If you don't like her then fine, but there are many of us who do and who find her to be well-written, and we are not "wrong" despite how much you want that to be the case.

"his mother has just done something terrible in his eyes...it makes him wonder "why are you following this code to the letter and why are you so committed to loyalty, honor, dignity, duty, you know, to the exclusion of all else when nobody else around you really is, and is that a smart thing to do or is that a stupid thing to do?"

That's what Weiss says. Basically Cat does something awful, this makes Robb question his code of honour and sleeps with Talisa because of this. You are of course entitled to interpret it differently but when your only argument is "that's not what he said, you're wrong." well lets just say I'm more inclined to think you're simply arguing for the sake of it and don't actually have any valid points. Yes Robb chooses to sleep with Talisa, Cat didn't warg into him and make him break his oath with the Freys. But the tipping point for Robb's choice is Cat freeing Jaime. I'm really not sure how there is any way around that.

I think it's pretentious because I find Talisa to be incredibly poorly written and basically just the most trite, boring character ever to dirty my television screen. So it strikes me as incredibly grating when Weiss goes on about how wonderful and three-dimensional she is. What deep probing questions does she ask? Some stock questions about the effects of war? That's not deep that's cliched.

And please, don't start again with the "you're prejudiced that's she's not Jeyne" thing again, making out that only superior, perceptive individuals such as yourself can see how amazing Talisa is. I dislike her because I feel she's poorly written and uninteresting for the 500th time. My opinions on the other invented characters are quite different. I absolutely loved the Spice King and while I don't particularly like Ros, Esme Bianco does at least bring a bit of flair and energy to the role that I can enjoy to an extent. So your notion that all this hate stems from her being a book deviation is ridiculous. Is that part of it? Yes it is, I won't deny it.

To your third point, how does Jeyne have "no character" in the books? Is she incredibly three-dimensional? Absolutely not, she's quite flat. But she has traits (kind, shy, naieve etc.) that could easily be fleshed out into a more rounded character. Because believe it or not female characters are not incredibly uninteresting if they're not badass, exotic, backtalking wonderwomen. The fact that D+D (and you from your posts.) seem to think this, is incredibly disturbing to me.

And your notion that they're using her to introduce Volantis now "rather than just dumping it on the audience in season four or five." as you put it is absurd as they've made hardly any effort to establish the mythology of Westeros and Essos beyond what is necessary in the current season. So I don't know why they'd be doing it now.

[Khal Porno]

Cripes dude, your arguments are always so over-reactive. Yes Weiss said that what Catelyn did was part of why he started to question his ideals, but his feelings for Talisa were what made him decide to go for it. To say otherwise is really a stretch.

And I never said that I was a "superior, more perceptive individual who can clearly see how amazing Talisa is" - I just said that what Weiss said in this interview is exactly what I like about the character. Why does the idea that others like her upset you so much? I'm not attacking your religion or something.

I didn't care for the representation of Catwoman in the latest Batman movie and didn't think her character was translated well from the comics, but many of my friends seemed to like her - but it didn't make me angry and I'm not going to tell them that they are wrong or that I don't believe them when they say they like her.

I don't think female characters have to be "badass exotic backtalking wonderwomen," and it's silly for you to tell me that that is my opinion. And that isn't even an apt description of Talisa anyway.

[protar]

Cripes dude, your arguments are always so over-reactive. Yes Weiss said that what Catelyn did was part of why he started to question his ideals, but his feelings for Talisa were what made him decide to go for it. To say otherwise is really a stretch.

And I never said that I was a "superior, more perceptive individual who can clearly see how amazing Talisa is" - I just said that what Weiss said in this interview is exactly what I like about the character. Why does the idea that others like her upset you so much? I'm not attacking your religion or something.

I didn't care for the representation of Catwoman in the latest Batman movie and didn't think her character was translated well from the comics, but many of my friends seemed to like her - but it didn't make me angry and I'm not going to tell them that they are wrong or that I don't believe them when they say they like her.

I don't think female characters have to be "badass exotic backtalking wonderwomen," and it's silly for you to tell me that that is my opinion. And that isn't even an apt description of Talisa anyway.

My arguments are over-reactive? Said the raven to the crow.

Obviously Robb has feelings for Talisa and would not have slept with her if he didn't, but his code of honour was what was holding him back, and Cat broke that code of honour. That is essentially the situation according to D+D.

And no you didn't outright say that you were superior and more perceptive, but you pretty strongly implied it. Your exact quote was: "clearly she was written well enough that their intent was clear to viewers who were not prejudiced against her because she's not Jeyne Westerling." If that's not implying that i'm not seeing straight and you are, then I don't know what is.

And when have I ever said that you were wrong and not entitled to your opinion? I haven't. I've disagreed with you, often quite vehemently, but it's not the same. I've expressed the opinion that you don't even like Talisa yes, but you're taking that way out of context. It's not because I personally don't like Talisa, it's because I hardly saw any Talisa fans until the purist vs. adaptionist reached a certain pitch, which led me to think that maybe some people where just getting carried away with their arguments. Now You tell me that you always liked her. You haven't exactly given any evidence that that's the case and you are often deliberately inflammatory, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and stand corrected in this case.

As for your views on female characters, I'm just getting that vibe when you say that Jeyne - who is quiet and shy - is a complete non-character, whereas you think Talisa - who is spunky and backtalks royalty - is deep and three-dimensional. And then you give no evidence as to how Talisa is more developed aside from being in-your-face.

[Helghan]

It's not because I personally don't like Talisa, it's because I hardly saw any Talisa fans until the purist vs. adaptionist reached a certain pitch, which led me to think that maybe some people where just getting carried away with their arguments. Now You tell me that you always liked her. You haven't exactly given any evidence that that's the case and you are often deliberately inflammatory, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and stand corrected in this case.

Im pretty sure some people agrue for Talisa just out of spite yet that does not mean that there are no people around who genuinely like her, just because you havent seen them does not mean they dont exist.

As for your views on female characters, I'm just getting that vibe when you say that Jeyne - who is quiet and shy - is a complete non-character, whereas you think Talisa - who is spunky and backtalks royalty - is deep and three-dimensional. And then you give no evidence as to how Talisa is more developed aside from being in-your-face.

The Duke did not say Jeyne is a non character because she is quiet and shy, he/she said Jeyne is a non-character because she is one, she is not fleshed out in least, she is nothing more than a plotdevice to have Robb forsake his oath to the Freys, even after the marriage she was not really fleshed out. And whether you like it or not Talisa is three-dimensional, she was originally intended to be Jeyne fleshed out but she became her own character during writing, that happens.

And if you watched season 2 then you should have realised by now that Talisa was fleshed out in the series, we know her intent, why she does what she does and whats her stance about things, how she sees the world, etc. Thats a lot more than what we know of Jeyne in the books.

[King Tommen]

Anecdotally, I have found that the extremely negative reactions to Talisa have come pretty much exclusively from the hard core reader fanbase which leads me to believe that there is definitely some baggage going into the forming of that opinion. The non-readers that I know and that I have seen commenting online have either had no problem with her or are just more apathetic because watching a love story develop isn't their cup of tea. The only time I've seen negativity expressed is when there is recognition that the girl is trouble (the same way Jeyne Westerling was) not because of who she was but because of the consequences of Robb being with her meant.

Part of the appeal of Talisa is that superficially speaking, Oona Chaplin is hot so there's an understanding of why Robb would be attracted to her especially since we've heard a few times about how homely and apparently devoid of personality the Frey girl most likely is. Over and above that though, I for one really did like the conversations they had regarding just what Robb's goal was in this war and her questions about what he thought honour was. I think it added a lot by having her ask him if he had contemplated what would happen to the kingdom if he did happen to take down Joffrey and questioning why he was doing this if it wasn't to sit on the Iron Throne himself. It was a point of view that hadn't come up before and I think it made Robb (and the audience) take a different look at the supposed nobility in conducting this bloody campaign in order to avenge his father which was creating so much collateral damage with everyday smallfolk who had very little stake in these disputes. It was more a commentary on the futility of war and helped counter all the notions in the series about honour on the battlefield. It ties in nicely with Renly's chastising of Robert on the boar hunt in Season 1 when he challenged Robert about just how great the "good old days of the war" were when there were people dying and starving just so that Robert could see through his rebellion.

IMO, those conversations helped with the "Starks are the good guys, Lannisters are the bad guys" black and white characterizations that Martin also fights back against. I think these conversations stir up a lot in Robb and they, along with his attraction for Talisa and his dawning realization that not everyone he trusts and relies on (like Catelyn) will adhere to the honour he does, give him the justification he needs to break his betrothal. To say that he suddenly decided to say "screw it" just because Catelyn releases Jaime isn't acknowledging all the things that were happening with him prior to that discussion with his mother.

Now as I've mentioned, the only thing I didn't really like with this arc is that I think they missed an opportunity to make Robb and Talisa's relationship more organic. They made her a nurse and in my mind, then had the perfect opportunity to have Robb be injured (just like the books) so that she would have a reason to have multiple interactions with him while tending to him. It wouldn't even have to be a major injury, just something that required her to dress and clean a wound regularly. At least then, her presence would make sense because it would be out of necessity of her doing her job. The way they ended up writing it, he kept either randomly running into her or seeking her out like a puppy dog in full view of the rest of his camp which was a little awkward. Really more of a minor quibble though. I liked her as a character and I think it will pay off more with the RW as we'll get to presumably see her reaction and devastation with the news since I'm sure she would feel almost entirely responsible for what happened. Her being built up this way will make the audience feel a lot more empathy for her grief and sorrow when that time comes.

[Khal Porno]

My arguments are over-reactive? Said the raven to the crow.

Obviously Robb has feelings for Talisa and would not have slept with her if he didn't, but his code of honour was what was holding him back, and Cat broke that code of honour. That is essentially the situation according to D+D.

And no you didn't outright say that you were superior and more perceptive, but you pretty strongly implied it. Your exact quote was: "clearly she was written well enough that their intent was clear to viewers who were not prejudiced against her because she's not Jeyne Westerling." If that's not implying that i'm not seeing straight and you are, then I don't know what is.

And when have I ever said that you were wrong and not entitled to your opinion? I haven't. I've disagreed with you, often quite vehemently, but it's not the same. I've expressed the opinion that you don't even like Talisa yes, but you're taking that way out of context. It's not because I personally don't like Talisa, it's because I hardly saw any Talisa fans until the purist vs. adaptionist reached a certain pitch, which led me to think that maybe some people where just getting carried away with their arguments. Now You tell me that you always liked her. You haven't exactly given any evidence that that's the case and you are often deliberately inflammatory, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and stand corrected in this case.

As for your views on female characters, I'm just getting that vibe when you say that Jeyne - who is quiet and shy - is a complete non-character, whereas you think Talisa - who is spunky and backtalks royalty - is deep and three-dimensional. And then you give no evidence as to how Talisa is more developed aside from being in-your-face.

OK, I will give you that my "clearly" statement comes across as a bit provocative although I didn't consciously intend that to be the case. For that I apologize. But all that stuff where you slagged off Talisa with the fanfic remark basically is saying "your opinion is wrong and you don't know what you're talking about." There's no reason for things to get so personal. And I wasn't even inviting a debate about Talisa, just pointing out that what Weiss outlined there was a big part of her appeal (to those who find her appealing).

For the record, this was my first post here, before I encountered the vitriol that comes with discussing Talisa:

I've really enjoyed seeing Robb's story fleshed out on the show, that's one thing I really didn't like about the books and didn't understand - why Robb was such a peripheral character. I kept thinking "OK when is the Robb chapter coming up?" and then having all his best stuff happen "off-camera" was disappointing to me.

So kudos to the showrunners, and hopefully they will continue the trend into season three. I suspect it will, considering they are breaking Storm of Swords into two seasons, it should give them the opportunity to let certain story arcs breathe a little more. In fact I hope they don't do the Red Wedding until season four.

I also really like that we are able to see Robb's relationship with his wife as it develops, and that she is an interesting character who actively challenges him instead of the fairly vapid girl from the books whom he had a one-night stand with and he said "well I guess I better make an honest woman out of her!" haha. Not that that was "bad" per se, I just feel that this is more interesting for me, especially in the context of a television series.

Anyway, this was all supposed to be about whether or not Catelyn is supposed to be blamed for the red wedding on the show, and I don't think that is borne out within the show's content, and the inside-the-episode interview doesn't indicate that either.