[Book & TV Spoilers] Insightful interview with writer Bryan Cogman

[Masamune]

I think you need to distinguish between not liking the character and not liking how the character is written. It's fair to say everyone 'hates' Joffrey for instance, but most people will say he has been well written. Lots of people 'hated' Sansa in S1, but the writing was fine.

A lot of viewers probably do think Talisa is a bit 'meh' because her character isn't Arya or the Queen of Dragons, and that she is clearly the Harbinger of Doom for Robb, and they like Robb. And some may say they 'hate' the character for those reasons.

No. Fans have taken against Talisa because she's a cliched, anachronistic deviation to the story that didn't need to be made. It cheapens Robb's entire character arc. Throw in Catelyn's braindead behaviour in the show, too, and all this has me rooting for the Red Wedding now. Well done, HBO. If that's what you were going for: Mission accomplished.

[Daske]

No. Fans have taken against Talisa because she's a cliched, anachronistic deviation to the story that didn't need to be made. It cheapens Robb's entire character arc. Throw in Catelyn's braindead behaviour in the show, too, and all this has me rooting for the Red Wedding now. Well done, HBO. If that's what you were going for: Mission accomplished.

I think you missed my point, but anyway not all fans agree with you, so it's odd you just say that. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, but thankfully it isn't being written to make you happy. This way we still have a show to enjoy ourselves.

Honestly, I think if he fell in love with Talisa in the books, and wedded Jeyne in the series people would be still compaining why it doesn't make sense in the show for the opposite reasons.

Straight question - you have said previously that for you good equates to faithfulness to the books. If the show was completely faithful, do you believe the show would now be heading into a third season?

[King Tommen]

No. Fans have taken against Talisa because she's a cliched, anachronistic deviation to the story that didn't need to be made. It cheapens Robb's entire character arc. Throw in Catelyn's braindead behaviour in the show, too, and all this has me rooting for the Red Wedding now. Well done, HBO. If that's what you were going for: Mission accomplished.

Actually, I think what you mean is that a very small subsection of diehard book fans don't like the character because it's not what they wanted to see. If you could stop speaking for the entire fanbase, that would be great.

[PatrickStormborn]

No. Fans have taken against Talisa because she's a cliched, anachronistic deviation to the story that didn't need to be made. It cheapens Robb's entire character arc. Throw in Catelyn's braindead behaviour in the show, too, and all this has me rooting for the Red Wedding now. Well done, HBO. If that's what you were going for: Mission accomplished.

I'm sorry, I'm re-reading ACoK at the moment and I've just got to the parley between Stannis and Renly at Storm's End. May I ask how Catelyn's behaviour can be classified as "braindead"? As far as I can see, no changes have been made so far, excluding the ones that are the result of no Riverrun and no Tullys. She warned Robb not to trust Balon Greyjoy, she told him to trade the Kingslayer for Sansa and Arya, she got sent to Renly... I am yet to see any changes that severely weaken Cat's character.

I know a lot of readers dislike Show Cat's desire to return to her children, but as far as I can see that's the result of the lack of Tullys. In the books, Robb (as bratty as he is in the show) tries to send her away and she keeps telling him that her place is with her dying father. Without her dying father, what excuse does she have?

ETA: Robb's arc is pretty awful in the books, tbh. He acts like a brat, heads West to pillage, shouts at Edmure, forces him to marry a Frey because he broke his promise, and then he apologises for not trading the Kingslayer for Sansa.

[Masamune]

I think you missed my point, but anyway not all fans agree with you, so it's odd you just say that. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, but thankfully it isn't being written to make you happy. This way we still have a show to enjoy ourselves.

Was there a point to that? Other than the usual 'You dun speak 4 da fanz bro!' that spews forth whenever someone criticizes the show?

Honestly, I think if he fell in love with Talisa in the books, and wedded Jeyne in the series people would be still compaining why it doesn't make sense in the show for the opposite reasons.

The point being that Talisa wouldn't exist in the books, so that's some circular reasoning thar buddy.

Straight question - you have said previously that for you good equates to faithfulness to the books. If the show was completely faithful, do you believe the show would now be heading into a third season?

This isn't just a matter of being faithful to the books. Sloppy writing is sloppy writing, irregardless.

All I will say is that without S1 (which was, by and large, faithful to the books) we wouldn't have S2, now would we?

[Masamune]

I'm sorry, I'm re-reading ACoK at the moment and I've just got to the parley between Stannis and Renly at Storm's End. May I ask how Catelyn's behaviour can be classified as "braindead"? As far as I can see, no changes have been made so far, excluding the ones that are the result of no Riverrun and no Tullys.

Herp... I'm gonna release Jaime to save him from the Karstarks and then make no mention of this when Robb & Rickard Karstark confront me about it. Derp.

[King Tommen]

I actually think that the show gives Catelyn a far more plausible reason to release Jaime than the "I'm so sad that I think I'll do some stupid stuff" that her and Robb both use as justification in the books. It is clearly demonstrated that the Karstark men will kill Jaime if Catelyn doesn't release him before the night is over. With Robb away, there is no one to stop them so it does appear like this is her only option if she wants him to remain alive and be able to use him to get her daughters back. The problem is that for some reason, she doesn't appear to bring this up with Robb after he finds out and does end up looking a bit like a dumbass in his eyes. But it's not like the audience doesn't understand the reasoning, I think she still remains sympathetic.

[Daske]

Was there a point to that?...

Yes, it was that when people say they 'hate' a character they may not be talking about the same 'hate' that you are. If you took a few seconds to digest what you are reading before knee-jerking this nonesense...

Other than the usual 'You dun speak 4 da fanz bro!' that spews forth whenever someone criticizes the show?

Criticizing the show and acting like you speak for all fans when criticizing the show are two different positions. It's arrogant too.

[Daske]

The point being that Talisa wouldn't exist in the books, so that's some circular reasoning thar buddy.

I used the word 'if', a little known word I grant you.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Herp... I'm gonna release Jaime to save him from the Karstarks and then make no mention of this when Robb & Rickard Karstark confront me about it. Derp.

"Herp" and "derp" used in the same sentence? Troll confirmed. I'll now wait for some asinine reply regarding "apologists". If you're so un-happy with the show, there are entire forums dedicated to the book series here. And I only say that because it seems like a massive waste of time to spend so much time posting about things you don't enjoy, as opposed to those that you do.

[protar]

"Herp" and "derp" used in the same sentence? Troll confirmed. I'll now wait for some asinine reply regarding "apologists". If you're so un-happy with the show, there are entire forums dedicated to the book series here. And I only say that because it seems like a massive waste of time to spend so much time posting about things you don't enjoy, as opposed to those that you do.

In all fairness, he does have a point. Why didn't she mention her reasoning to Robb?

[oierem]

In all fairness, he does have a point. Why didn't she mention her reasoning to Robb?

Because Karstark was with them, and didn't want to accuse him, create more tension between them, and because she was ready to assume the blame.

[protar]

Because Karstark was with them, and didn't want to accuse him, create more tension between them, and because she was ready to assume the blame.

Didn't Karstark leave? Why didn't she tell Robb then? and I would say Cat wouldn't lie down like that and take that nonsense even when he was there but this is the show.

[PatrickStormborn]

In all fairness, he does have a point. Why didn't she mention her reasoning to Robb?

Because Catelyn was guilty; Karstark wasn't. How could she prove he was going to kill Jaime?

[protar]

Because Catelyn was guilty; Karstark wasn't. How could she prove he was going to kill Jaime?

Well I'm not saying her argument was perfect, but it was the reasoning for why she Jaime so why when confronted with Robb does she not even give it a go? I can't believe (as Oierem said.) that it was simply because Karstark was in the tent.

[PatrickStormborn]

Well I'm not saying her argument was perfect, but it was the reasoning for why she Jaime so why when confronted with Robb does she not even give it a go? I can't believe (as Oierem said.) that it was simply because Karstark was in the tent.

I think it is a little bit weird, but at the same time I can't imagine Book Cat saying: "Well I had to free him because Karstark was going to kill him!" She's the sort of character who would accept her punishment with dignity. After all, she's the only one who's committed a crime there.

My only problem with the handling of Cat, so far, is that we didn't get her offering herself for execution in response to freeing Jaime. I hope they include that in season three, because it's one of the reasons I respect and admire Cat so much.

[King Tommen]

I think if they wanted to go in that direction then they should have had a quick shot of Catelyn glancing at Karstark and pausing before continuing with a look on her face that clearly showed that she was making the decision to not implicate Karstark in order to maintain the peace. As shot, it appears as though Catelyn simply forgets the major reason why she let Jaime go and has decided that she only released Jaime because she wanted to trade him for the girls.

[Ran]

All of this is because D & D aren't particularly interested in Catelyn, have pushed her into the hysterical mother role, and wanted to motivate Robb by making it so he could easily and unambiguously blame his mother. David and Dan blame Cat's "betrayal" for Robb betraying the Freys -- "if even his own mother can betray him, why does he have to act so properly rather than do what he wants?", in essence.

Did Catelyn not try to argue for why she released the Kingslayer? Sure she did... until it was time for her to note her immediate cause of action, the very thing that we see as the first and only concern when she shows up at the cage. Then, and only then, Catelyn turns passive and "accepting of all the blame",

This is bad writing, folks, not some complex psychology based on how, oh, Karstark's is there so she can't say in front of him that his men were growing murderous (notice that? Don't even have to implicate him directly; she could even call men to witness the fact that there was brawling and, no doubt, men going on about how they ought to go kill the Kinglsayer) or how she's being "dignified" and accepting all the blame so that she's shoved in a corner, losing all influence at a critical time, and gives Robb reason to do whatever he wants. Oh, and later on in private, no Karstark's present, her motives remain forgotten.

It made things easier on them. They needed to give Cat a reason to release Jaime since the novel's reasons -- not "oh, I'm sad", but rather the recognition of the uselessness of Jaime as a hostage and the imminent need to shore up the Stark line now that Robb (middle of the war, thick of battle Robb) is the only

male Stark left -- are not operative (why they changed that, I do not know yet).

But THEN they also needed Robb to have an absolute and uncomplicated view of what his mother did, so she clams up and her one and only explicitly stated reason for acting is never referred to or hinted at again. Not because it makes sense, but because they trapped themselves and had to fudge things, and if there's one thing they know how to do, it's fudging Catelyn's character to get what they want.

Bad writing. It happens.

[Daske]

All of this is because D & D aren't particularly interested in Catelyn, have pushed her into the hysterical mother role, and wanted to motivate Robb by making it so he could easily and unambiguously blame his mother. David and Dan blame Cat's "betrayal" for Robb betraying the Freys -- "if even his own mother can betray him, why does he have to act so properly rather than do what he wants?", in essence.

Why wouldn't Robb blame Cat for releasing Jaime whatever the reason? She did it and admits to it. He's not going to be happy about it whatever.

But anyway, aren't you quoting there what the showrunners believe is going through Robb's mind as his motivation and not necessarily what the showrunners think should be the overall impression to the viewer. It doesn't follow they we or D&D should want to lay the blame on Cat for betraying the Freys just because Robb blames his mum for something else. Robb's state of mind is clearly one of the biggest factors influencing his subsequent decision, and yes she has some effect on that, but as there is no intent from Cat to send a raven for a wedding planner it can hardly be called blame. This is probably not even on her radar and why would it be.

Robb makes his own decisions. Yes, he may be swayed somewhat this way or that, as anyone is based on their environment, advice or the way they are treated by other people, but it's still his choice. And anyway, Cat's actual earlier advice to his face was explicitly not to get involved with Talisa!

For someone to do something rashly to spite someone else is a weakness in former personality not the latter's. In this case if blame is being laid for the wedding it falls at Robb's feet rather than his mother's. It's neither her fault he is young nor that he is in love (which is the other reason this happens). You can argue about whether she did or didn't have a good reason for releasing Jaime at all, but one thing she had no reason to think was 'Oh Robb might have a shotgun wedding if I release Jaime, I better not'.

Did Catelyn not try to argue for why she released the Kingslayer?

I do agree that the lack of explanation of her actions by Cat could have been handled better.

It's such a common thing in drama to gloss over people's obvious actions to spin out the story or add tension. It's infruriating how many times, even in quality dramas, we see an upset protagonist walking away with the other party shouting their name over and over, when really they just need to take a few steps to catch up with them and say 'I did it because...'. Or how many times is the hero called away by a phone call just as another person they are talking to is about to give away some important info. It's weak, but as mentioned by others there was in Cat's case at least some attempt to formulate a real reason for staying quiet, but yeah it could have been done in a clearer way.

[Ran]

Why wouldn't Robb blame Cat for releasing Jaime whatever the reason?

The operative phrase is "easily and unambiguously". Robb would not be so self-righteous and feel so betrayed if Catelyn informed him that Jaime was hours away from being murdered, the way the camp was, and he could ask others who were present if they had that sense too.

... and not necessarily what the showrunners think should be the overall impression to the viewer.

It's about the bad writing entailed to force Robb to an unnatural position by having Catelyn's motivations suddenly vanish in mid air. As you say, it's weak stuff.

There are, of course, other things that the writers have said about Catelyn, and certainly there are things they've done with Catelyn to deviate her from the character in the novels, that shows they don't have much interest in the character and are willing to compromise the character as needed to further the story they want to tell.