[Book & TV Spoilers] Insightful interview with writer Bryan Cogman

[protar]

You're putting words in GRRM's mouth. And she's not a commoner anyway.

Well firstly, yes she's a commoner by westerosi standards. Secondly I'm not putting words in Martin's mouth. He's said he doesn't like that whole shtick and yet D+D basically build a whole arc over it. So I'm just finding it hard to believe that he's invested in the arc.

And to the other posters, yes Robb wouldn't have Talisa's tongue taken out, that was just what Martin said would likely happen to the backtalking commoner in medieval times. But nonetheless, book Robb wouldn't have become enamoured with a girl because she tells him that his war is wrong. He barely tolerates his mother suggesting that, and you think that he'd just let some random nobody sass him about it and fall in love with her to boot? No way in seven hells.

[Daske]

But nonetheless, book Robb wouldn't have become enamoured with a girl because she tells him that his war is wrong. He barely tolerates his mother suggesting that, and you think that he'd just let some random nobody sass him about it and fall in love with her to boot? No way in seven hells.

I'm sure the fact that she is smoking hot probably has something to do with it too.

Hormone-ranging young men don't follow their mums, they follow the hot girl from Volantis.

Y'know a whole bunch of our players are involved in some kind of love game while they are meant to be playing at war, and most are older and supposedly wiser than Robb - see Renly/Loras, Jaime/Cersei, Dany/Drogo, Tyrion/Shae, Jon/Ygritte, even Stannis gets seduced! They're all at it! Robb & Talisa falling in love is probably the most believeable of the lot.

[protar]

I'm sure the fact that she is smoking hot probably has something to do with it too.

Hormone-ranging young men don't follow their mums, they follow the hot girl from Volantis.

Y'know a whole bunch of our players are involved in some kind of love game while they are meant to be playing at war, and most are older and supposedly wiser than Robb - see Renly/Loras, Jaime/Cersei, Dany/Drogo, Tyrion/Shae, Jon/Ygritte, even Stannis gets seduced! They're all at it! Robb & Talisa falling in love is probably the most believeable of the lot.

You may not be aware of this, but attractive women do not have the infalible ability to make men throw away all reason and sense, especially in dire situations. Not to mention the fact that all those other examples you gave have justification and context. Renly/Loras have been going at it long before any wars, and I don't see Renly's romance with Loras getting in the way of his fighting. Jaime/Cersei, again happened before the war (and actually doesn't happen during the war.) and is specifically pointed out as messed up. Dany was sold to Drogo, Tyrion has an addiction to prostitues, Jon sleeps with Ygritte to save his skin and Stannis gets seduced so Melisandre can make shadowbabies. With Robb/Talisa it's pure lust and I find that boring and unsympathetic.

[Daske]

You may not be aware of this, but attractive women do not have the infalible ability to make men throw away all reason and sense, especially in dire situations.

Not infallibly, not necessarily physically attractive, and not all reason and sense, but yes - love and lust can and do make many many people do very very silly and stupid things. Is this really in doubt?

Not to mention the fact that all those other examples you gave have justification and context.

The justification and context for all of them bat Stannis/Mel but including Robb/Talisa is simply that they all fell in love or at least ended up that way.

Robb ''I feel like I have justified my love to you Tal, let's go for it"

Talisa: "Oh no, Robb, our context is too weak, I just can't commit right now!"

I will stop there - I can see how these Robb/Talisa debates get silly.

[protar]

Not infallibly, not necessarily physically attractive, and not all reason and sense, but yes - love and lust can and do make many many people do very very silly and stupid things. Is this really in doubt?

The justification and context for all of them bat Stannis/Mel but including Robb/Talisa is simply that they all fell in love or at least ended up that way.

Robb ''I feel like I have justified my love to you Tal, let's go for it"

Talisa: "Oh no, Robb, our context is too weak, I just can't commit right now!"

I will stop there - I can see how these Robb/Talisa debates get silly.

Lust can make people behave stupidly, but not in all defiance of other circumstances. Robb knows he's promised to another, he's not going to be paying attention to random commoners.

Yes, all of those romances end with the two people in love, but the circumstances are more than just a cliche meet-cute. Unlike Talisa/Robb

[Khal Porno]

I don't think they "meet cute" at all. Wasn't she sawing off some dude's arm or something??

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't think they "meet cute" at all. Wasn't she sawing off some dude's arm or something??

Leg.

[Reznak mo Reznak]

Well firstly, yes she's a commoner by westerosi standards. Secondly I'm not putting words in Martin's mouth. He's said he doesn't like that whole shtick and yet D+D basically build a whole arc over it. So I'm just finding it hard to believe that he's invested in the arc.

and how exactly is a noblewoman from volantis a commoner in westeros?

[DragonAge93]

All that matters is Robb broke his oath to Frey, and now he's gonna have to pay the consequences. Isn't that all that really matters, the main plot of Robb's story? Him marrying another and breaking Frey's oath? Who cares if some things are altered along the way, as long as we get the gist of the story.

And she's not a commoner. She is of noble birth, and even Robb can tell she was of noble birth, so the backtalking didn't really bother him all that much.

[protar]

All that matters is Robb broke his oath to Frey, and now he's gonna have to pay the consequences. Isn't that all that really matters, the main plot of Robb's story? Him marrying another and breaking Frey's oath? Who cares if some things are altered along the way, as long as we get the gist of the story.

And she's not a commoner. She is of noble birth, and even Robb can tell she was of noble birth, so the backtalking didn't really bother him all that much.

See that's were I disagree. People like you who are more accepting of the changes to the source material believe that the journey isn't important and that so long as the main events are there then it's fine. I believe that the journey should be just as important and that an adaptation should be more than just ticking off a list of major plot points. Changing the means to get to these events often completely undermines the drama and emotion involved and alters the personalities of the characters, usually for the worst. Let's say for example that a viewer is one of the many, many people who dislikes Talisa and finds her arc trite and uninteresting. The let's assume the likely possibility that in S3 much of Robb's arc revolves around the romance with this character they hate and they can barely stand to see them on screen. So then the RW comes around. Robb's dead, that's the important thing right? Wrong, because thanks to Talisa a large portion of the viewership (and from what I've seen those who like Talisa are very much in the minority.) is glad to see that arc come to an end and grief is replaced by relief. One of the most shocking events in the books, potentially ruined in the show.

And btw, yes by the standard of Westeros, Talisa is a commoner. She gave up all claims to nobility in Volantis and now she's cutting off people's legs for a living.

[Khal Porno]

Undermining the drama and emotion...dude, Robb's romance as it occurs in the book universe DIDN'T EVEN HAPPEN IN THE BOOKS. It's in ONE paragraph that Robb tells his mom. Tell me again how it's SOOOO important that it happens exactly how he describes it in one paragraph out of an 1100+ page book.

And you have no idea what the majority of Game of Thrones viewers think of Talisa. From what I can tell of viewers who post on this message board, opinions are split - but those who are butthurt about it are the ones who whine the loudest. However there are millions of people who watch Game of Thrones. People who post here and complain about Talisa are less than .01% of the total viewers.

[Helghan]

See that's were I disagree. People like you who are more accepting of the changes to the source material believe that the journey isn't important and that so long as the main events are there then it's fine. I believe that the journey should be just as important and that an adaptation should be more than just ticking off a list of major plot points. Changing the means to get to these events often completely undermines the drama and emotion involved and alters the personalities of the characters, usually for the worst.

There are times when the journey is not really important only the destination. Robb/Jeyne arc is exactly this kind of situation, mostly because this very arc happens basicly off-screen in the books. The injury, pity-fuck then quick marriage is not one bit more interesting then Robb falling in love with Talisa. You do understand why the off-screen development of Robb/Jeyne does not work on TV right? Non-book readers wouldnt know what to make of it. Hell even in the books it was a bit weird.

The really important part of Robb/Jeyne are the repercussions since they are integral part of the RW, but the repercussions are unchanged in the series. And dont get me wrong Im not a fan of Talisa, but I dont see it being any worse or better than what we got in the books.

Tell me something would you have hated the Robb/Talisa arc of the series if Talisa were Jeyne? Same dialogue, same scenes but the girl now is from the Westerlands instead of Volantis. If your answer is no then your problem is with only Talisa the character, which is preference.

Let's say for example that a viewer is one of the many, many people who dislikes Talisa and finds her arc trite and uninteresting. The let's assume the likely possibility that in S3 much of Robb's arc revolves around the romance with this character they hate and they can barely stand to see them on screen. So then the RW comes around. Robb's dead, that's the important thing right? Wrong, because thanks to Talisa a large portion of the viewership (and from what I've seen those who like Talisa are very much in the minority.) is glad to see that arc come to an end and grief is replaced by relief. One of the most shocking events in the books, potentially ruined in the show.

I know people who have read the books about a dozen times and like Talisa more than Jeyne, but thats beside the point. I myself dont care about either, but I admit Im one of the few who never gave a rats ass about Robb or Cat either so the RW for me was not even near as shocking as Martin intended.

Back to your point, what you describe can happen with just about every character. I know non-book readers who didnt care about Ned getting beheaded in season 1, Eddard Stark of all people did not gain their sympathy at all, and according to them it wasnt because they expected Sean Bean to die either. Quite a few people dont care about Theon, one of the best written character in the books and Alfie Allens scenes in Winterfell were shining moments of season 2 in my opinion, yet there are some who dont care what happens in Winterfell with Bran, Rickon, Luwin, Theon, etc. You cant make everyone happy.

As for Robb, in the show Richard Madden had to be given more screen time than what Robb gets in the books. Otherwise viewers wouldnt feel he is important enough to be like Ned was in season 1, our main protagonist from the north. In the show where they have limited time to tell the books, to make a character be important means they have to give them a high number of scenes, this means we see more of Robb which basicly means invented stuff gets in.

D&D and maybe even HBO higher ups decided that falling for the girl would translate better on screen than what we got in the books. I do agree with them that they had to show it on-screen, how they went about it is another matter entirely. Thats part is down to preference, and just because you or I dont like it does not make it bad nor does it impy any way that the creators of the show dont understand the source material or dont care about it.

[protar]

Undermining the drama and emotion...dude, Robb's romance as it occurs in the book universe DIDN'T EVEN HAPPEN IN THE BOOKS. It's in ONE paragraph that Robb tells his mom. Tell me again how it's SOOOO important that it happens exactly how he describes it in one paragraph out of an 1100+ page book.

And you have no idea what the majority of Game of Thrones viewers think of Talisa. From what I can tell of viewers who post on this message board, opinions are split - but those who are butthurt about it are the ones who whine the loudest. However there are millions of people who watch Game of Thrones. People who post here and complain about Talisa are less than .01% of the total viewers.

Yes, the romance was glossed over. But then we have the first half of SOS (Equivalent in size to an ordinary novel.) to see Robb and connect with him so the impact was still there. In the show we're going to have a season of the walking cliche that is Talisa, completely ruining that.

And no, the internet is not a completely reliable basis for which parts of the show were liked and which weren't. But they're a representation nonetheless and the only one we've got. With most facets of the show there's a pretty even split on the web whether it was good or bad. With Talisa it's basically everyone vs half a dozen Talisa fans. Tells you something there. And what's more, this scattering of Talisa fans didn't exist at first, it just magically appeared once the purist vs apologist argument reached its pitch. So quite frankly I doubt that most of them even like Talisa and wouldn't be surprised if they were just arguing the point out of spite. There, I said it. I don't believe you sincerely like Talisa.

And really this is all moot to me, because the bottom line of my argument is that something was changed from the books when it could feasibly have been closer to the books. In my eyes that makes it wrong.

[protar]

There are times when the journey is not really important only the destination. Robb/Jeyne arc is exactly this kind of situation, mostly because this very arc happens basicly off-screen in the books. The injury, pity-fuck then quick marriage is not one bit more interesting then Robb falling in love with Talisa. You do understand why the off-screen development of Robb/Jeyne does not work on TV right? Non-book readers wouldnt know what to make of it. Hell even in the books it was a bit weird.

That's your opinion. I thought it was interesting and different to how the usual fantasy romances played out. It could've worked out great on screen.

The really important part of Robb/Jeyne are the repercussions since they are integral part of the RW, but the repercussions are unchanged in the series. And dont get me wrong Im not a fan of Talisa, but I dont see it being any worse or better than what we got in the books.

Tell me something would you have hated the Robb/Talisa arc of the series if Talisa were Jeyne? Same dialogue, same scenes but the girl now is from the Westerlands instead of Volantis. If your answer is no then your problem is with only Talisa the character, which is preference.

It would've been somewhat better as she wouldn't have felt so out of place in the story, but I still would've disliked the arc because of how poor I felt the writing was, and how trite I thought the romance was.

I know people who have read the books about a dozen times and like Talisa more than Jeyne, but thats beside the point. I myself dont care about either, but I admit Im one of the few who never gave a rats ass about Robb or Cat either so the RW for me was not even near as shocking as Martin intended.

Back to your point, what you describe can happen with just about every character. I know non-book readers who didnt care about Ned getting beheaded in season 1, Eddard Stark of all people did not gain their sympathy at all, and according to them it wasnt because they expected Sean Bean to die either. Quite a few people dont care about Theon, one of the best written character in the books and Alfie Allens scenes in Winterfell were shining moments of season 2 in my opinion, yet there are some who dont care what happens in Winterfell with Bran, Rickon, Luwin, Theon, etc. You cant make everyone happy.

No, you can't make everyone happy, but you're certainly not helping things by introducing a boring, cliche character like Talisa. And yes, that's how most people see her. The internet isn't the best way representation of the viewership, but it's still a representation. Where other changes have a roughly even split on whether it was bad or good, I could count the Talisa fans on this forum on my fingers and it's the same on the TWOP forums. To pretend that she's really popular outside the net despite this is not only absurd, it's also hypocritical. If I'm not allowed to say that Talisa is unpopular outside the web then you can't say if she's popular outside the web. Neither of us have access to that information so we go by the information we do have.

As for Robb, in the show Richard Madden had to be given more screen time than what Robb gets in the books. Otherwise viewers wouldnt feel he is important enough to be like Ned was in season 1, our main protagonist from the north. In the show where they have limited time to tell the books, to make a character be important means they have to give them a high number of scenes, this means we see more of Robb which basicly means invented stuff gets in.

I agree that we needed to see Robb in season 2, but it would've been nice if we'd seen book Robb.

D&D and maybe even HBO higher ups decided that falling for the girl would translate better on screen than what we got in the books. I do agree with them that they had to show it on-screen, how they went about it is another matter entirely. Thats part is down to preference, and just because you or I dont like it does not make it bad nor does it impy any way that the creators of the show dont understand the source material or dont care about it.

If that was the case, then that's just D+D not having the balls to show an interesting relationship on screen. That doesn't justify their actions or make me respect them any more. It's only more proof of the fact that they don't respect the books.

[Frumpus]

And really this is all moot to me, because the bottom line of my argument is that something was changed from the books when it could feasibly have been closer to the books. In my eyes that makes it wrong.

The change from the books is a good thing. In the books, unless you were a bad reader, you would have noticed that Robb screwed a girl out of depression over news of his dead brothers, and after the deed was done, he decided he just HAD to marry her out of honour.

That right there makes Book Robb a massive idiot who made a grave mistake because of his shallow concept of honour. At least the TV Robb geniunely fell in love, regardless of who the character was.

I'm still hoping Talisa was planted by Roose or some other Lannister spy, to keep with the whole conspiracy thing from the books, but in terms of Robb's actual motives, TV Robb is superior.

[protar]

The change from the books is a good thing. In the books, unless you were a bad reader, you would have noticed that Robb screwed a girl out of depression over news of his dead brothers, and after the deed was done, he decided he just HAD to marry her out of honour.

That right there makes Book Robb a massive idiot who made a grave mistake because of his shallow concept of honour. At least the TV Robb geniunely fell in love, regardless of who the character was.

I'm still hoping Talisa was planted by Roose or some other Lannister spy, to keep with the whole conspiracy thing from the books, but in terms of Robb's actual motives, TV Robb is superior.

Yes, I did notice that and it made the romance different and unique. In the show it's exactly the same as any other storybook romance and what's more it makes Robb unsympathetic because he's just spitting on the Freys to fulfill his own lusts.

[Helghan]

That's your opinion. I thought it was interesting and different to how the usual fantasy romances played out. It could've worked out great on screen.

I would honestly like you to explain how an off-screen pity-fuck over the news of a relatives death is interesting romance. Thing is Robb/Jeyne was nothing more than a handy plotdevice to make Robb do something that would make the RW possible. We know almost nothing about it, only what Robb told Cat and he didnt really go into any details which is understandable.

Thing is we had to see Robb with the woman he would marry on-screen, because the way it was in the books does not work from a narrative viewpoint, this means new stuff. Basicly proud book purist would dislike it either way.

No, you can't make everyone happy, but you're certainly not helping things by introducing a boring, cliche character like Talisa. And yes, that's how most people see her. The internet isn't the best way representation of the viewership, but it's still a representation. Where other changes have a roughly even split on whether it was bad or good, I could count the Talisa fans on this forum on my fingers and it's the same on the TWOP forums. To pretend that she's really popular outside the net despite this is not only absurd, it's also hypocritical. If I'm not allowed to say that Talisa is unpopular outside the web then you can't say if she's popular outside the web. Neither of us have access to that information so we go by the information we do have.

Talisa being a boring cliche is your opinion nothing more. Some might agree with you some would not. I never said that she was popular outside the net. I doubt she is since she is new and book purists like yourself dont like when characters get replaced that I can understand, I can even relate to it. That however does not mean she is hated though. Most people I know dont care about her just like they dont care about Jeyne either.

And btw most of the people who hate/dislike Talisa dislike her because she replaced Jeyne not because the character itself is terrible. The writing wasnt the best I agree, the acting wasnt topnotch either while we are at it, but the show is not only about Robb/Talisa.

[Helghan]

If that was the case, then that's just D+D not having the balls to show an interesting relationship on screen. That doesn't justify their actions or make me respect them any more. It's only more proof of the fact that they don't respect the books.

Its your opinion that it was an interesting relationship, I for one would rather watch paint dry than seeing Robb/Jeyne or Robb/Talisa.

And its not proof that they dont respect the books. Look I dont mind if you make up things so you can hate on D&D, go for it. Truth we all have to accept like it or not that the TV series is an adaptation this means some things have to be changed in order for them to translate better on screen, other things have to be changed because of the actors or the available resources, or simply because they have to cater to a much wider audience than only those who have read the books.

And even little things will get people whining about them. Come one during season 1 people were bitching that Syrio had hair. Oh god how terrible! Or that Harry Lloyd and Emilia Clarke didnt have purple eyes. Not one person thought about why their eyes werent purpl,e no everyone started whining how terribly D&D does their job, who cares if the contacts irritate the actors eyes in the book they are purple!

Certainly Robb/Talisa is a bigger change but it falls under the same category. Its basicly like the first episode where the introduction of the family and the kings arrival were altered, scenes and dialogue were changed. Not because they dont respect the books but because it translated better on screen and in this case they were right, the scenes felt natural and were enjoyable even if they did not give us all the information brans chapters did.

Edit: And before you would call me an apologist, Im far from it. I dont like every single thing in the show, there are certain changes I dont like, there are scenes I think are useless or scenes where I cringe everytime I see them. However the show has lot more good scenes than bad ones. I am aware that whether I like it or not changes are made, and Im glad that even with scenes I dont like the shows quality overall is pretty high and its one of the best shows on TV right now.

[protar]

I would honestly like you to explain how an off-screen pity-fuck over the news of a relatives death is interesting romance. Thing is Robb/Jeyne was nothing more than a handy plotdevice to make Robb do something that would make the RW possible. We know almost nothing about it, only what Robb told Cat and he didnt really go into any details which is understandable.

Thing is we had to see Robb with the woman he would marry on-screen, because the way it was in the books does not work from a narrative viewpoint, this means new stuff. Basicly proud book purist would dislike it either way.

It was interesting because it wasn't typical. And, as you conveniently ignored from my previous post, I agree it shouldn't have been off screen.

Talisa being a boring cliche is your opinion nothing more. Some might agree with you some would not. I never said that she was popular outside the net. I doubt she is since she is new and book purists like yourself dont like when characters get replaced that I can understand, I can even relate to it. That however does not mean she is hated though. Most people I know dont care about her just like they dont care about Jeyne either.

And btw most of the people who hate/dislike Talisa dislike her because she replaced Jeyne not because the character itself is terrible. The writing wasnt the best I agree, the acting wasnt topnotch either while we are at it, but the show is not only about Robb/Talisa.

Look, from what I've seen most people don't like Talisa. Therefore the show would've been better without her.

Its your opinion that it was an interesting relationship, I for one would rather watch paint dry than seeing Robb/Jeyne or Robb/Talisa.

And its not proof that they dont respect the books. Look I dont mind if you make up things so you can hate on D&D, go for it. Truth we all have to accept like it or not that the TV series is an adaptation this means some things have to be changed in order for them to translate better on screen, other things have to be changed because of the actors or the available resources, or simply because they have to cater to a much wider audience than only those who have read the books.

And even little things will get people whining about them. Come one during season 1 people were bitching that Syrio had hair. Oh god how terrible! Or that Harry Lloyd and Emilia Clarke didnt have purple eyes. Not one person thought about why their eyes werent purpl,e no everyone started whining how terribly D&D does their job, who cares if the contacts irritate the actors eyes in the book they are purple!

Certainly Robb/Talisa is a bigger change but it falls under the same category. Its basicly like the first episode where the introduction of the family and the kings arrival were altered, scenes and dialogue were changed. Not because they dont respect the books but because it translated better on screen and in this case they were right, the scenes felt natural and were enjoyable even if they did not give us all the information brans chapters did.

I understand that changes are necessary in adaptations. But changing Jeyne to Talisa was not necessary. They simply didn't want to take the risk of presenting a non-conventional romance.

Now sorry if my answers are incomplete but I'm in a bit of a rush.

[Helghan]

I understand that changes are necessary in adaptations. But changing Jeyne to Talisa was not necessary. They simply didn't want to take the risk of presenting a non-conventional romance.

Now sorry if my answers are incomplete but I'm in a bit of a rush.

I agree that creating a character to replace another while fulfilling the same role was a waste of resources especially since the new character is about as interesting as the replaced one. I didnt ignore that we agreed about Robbs romance being on-screen, its obvious it has to be.

The problem with this non-conventional romance is thats its not fleshed out, there is no indication in the books at this point in the story that is has to be anything more than a fling, a one night stand. Its not a romance at all. Robb gets injured, Jeyne tends to his wounds, he recives the grave news, pity-fuck, quick marrige.

Robbs justification of marriying the girl makes no mention of doing it because he loves her, his whole argument is that he bedded her its the honorable thing to wed her. There is no indication in his chat with Cat that if another women was there in Jeynes place the same thing wouldnt have happened. No Im not saying Robb doesnt love his wife, but he did not unknowingly sign his own death warrant because he loved her. In the show he does, and he is told he is signing his death warrant but does not look like he believes it.

So yes they did play it safe with this approach, it does not make or break the show or either character in my opinion. It wasnt the best part of the series but the important parts of the story are still there, things can go forward from where we left off like they did in the books. Minus the Westerlings of course but they are not really integral in Robbs story.

Sorry for the long reply, the main thing I want to know is: Why do you feel, or where do you get the idea that just because things are changed, the creators of the show dont respect or understand the source material, while knowing that there are changes they will have to make along the way.