[Book & TV Spoilers] Insightful interview with writer Bryan Cogman

[Ran]

Just stop with the silly personal invective, folks. Agree to disagree and move on.

[Arkash]

I dont bother reading those discussions any more... always the same, and it will always be the same as long as works (on any support) are translated to screen.

[protar]

And we all know internet forums are the majority opinion (and therefore the right one). Give me a break, dude. You can say ANY romance is a cliche then. OMG it's a girl and there's a guy and he wants her and she kind of wants him too, WHAT A CLICHE!!

I presented my arguments as my opinions, and because they are my opinions, you can't say that these things are bad. Only that you don't care for them.

No internet opinions aren't the majority, but as we don't have any surveys from the general public on their opinion, it's all we have to go on. I was merely making a point.

And as I said in my post it's the execution which is more important; cliche's can be done well and original stories can be done badly. I feel that the Talisa plot (and much else besides) was done poorly. You don't, fairplay, let's just agree to disagree if you can't be civil. Never did I say you weren't entitled to your opinions, I apologise if you got that message.

[Daske]

Of course the actually important thing is how the story is written and I feel that the Talisa/Robb romance was written terribly (along with the majority of the forum and the majority of the Unsullied.)

None of my non-reader friends like Talisa - but this is because half think she may be a spy and all of them assume she will be Robb's achilles heel. None of them have mentioned bad writing - they just don't like this story-line because they are invested in the characters and don't like what it clearly means for Robb's future. And I would bet that is similar for the wider audience in general.

[Werthead]

I haven't actually read this thread before, but something Cogman said rather disturbs me:

An offhand remark about a character in the second episode of the first season that doesn’t pay off until season five might not be the best use of that time in the second episode of the first season.

A hell of a lot of good TV works on this principle: things are set up many episodes or even entire seasons in advance and then pay off satisfactorily later on. Cogman's suggestion that you can't do this would invalidate a lot of The Wire and Deadwood (two shows light-years ahead of GoT - so far anyway - in quality), not to mention a fair bit of Babylon 5, Buffy and other shows of that kind.

In fact, I'd say that setting something up three seasons ahead of time is a much better use of time than pulling something out of thin air once you get there and try to retcon. BSG tried that a lot in its final two seasons, and is a key reason why those two seasons suck.

They were the wrong choice to make. That's not because of the source material, however, it's because of the showrunners making some poor decisions in how they were adapting it. Or possibly because Rose Leslie's agent negotiated four episodes, and by god, one of them had better be a two-hander with Kit Harington. And maybe Charles Dance's agent did the same

I have to say that this is highly implausible. TV actors don't have that kind of power, unless you're Kiefer Sutherland on 24 or maybe Kelsey Grammer on Frasier. Ultimately the job of an actor is to get a script and do what is asked of him or her on it. Those actors were in those episodes because they were written to be in that many (or maybe had scenes written for fewer episodes and then the scenes were ultimately stripped across more), not because of any horse-trading behind-the-scenes by relatively low-profile actors (as Leslie is and arguably Dance, at least relatively).

A movie is a different beast, as named actors might sell a movie just by being in it, so they have more say in what happens in it (and is sometimes why the actor is also sometimes credited as a producer).

Do you honestly think that if D&D weren't fans of this series at all and didn't respect the material that they would tackle something as immense as ASOIAF?

It's worth remembering the Legend of the Seeker effect. The producers claimed to be huge fans of the books when they bought the rights, but then chucked the books and went off in their own direction. GoT has not seen anything of the same kind of treatment, but it's worth remembering that D&D read the books and almost immediately began developing the TV series based on that initial read of them. No-one involved in the TV series has been an immense fan of the books stretching back for years like many people here, or Philippa Boyens was on the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

They may like the books a great deal, but they've also said themselves that they were reading with an eye for adaptation, rather than a total love of the books. Commercial considerations played a role.

None of my non-reader friends like Talisa - but this is because half think she may be a spy and all of them assume she will be Robb's achilles heel. None of them have mentioned bad writing - they just don't like this story-line because they are invested in the characters and don't like what it clearly means for Robb's future. And I would bet that is similar for the wider audience in general.

This is my experience as well. Talia, or rather the marriage, are clearly Bad News for Robb, as spelled out in the Season 2 finale, but I haven't seen anyone complain about it too much.

Executing the Robb/Jeyne relationship as depicted in the books would have been suicide for Robb's character and storyline, and no-one would have been even vaguely invested in the relationship or the character of Jeyne.

[protar]

Executing the Robb/Jeyne relationship as depicted in the books would have been suicide for Robb's character and storyline, and no-one would have been even vaguely invested in the relationship or the character of Jeyne.

Really? I think that a lot of people, non-readers as well as book-readers would've have liked to see the more original and creative story that was from the books. Robb breaking his contract for honour not for love is genre-busting, which is what the books are about and what the show was about initially. Also, I personally (and I know I'm not alone.) feel that the way the book took made Robb more sympathetic. The only real problem is Jeyne, in that she is something of a none character, but she could easily have been fleshed out into a more compelling love interest. And considering the fact that D+D have turned every female character save Cat and Sansa in badass girl-power girls, someone who wasn't so sassy and in-your-face could've been refreshing.

[King Tommen]

Really? I think that a lot of people, non-readers as well as book-readers would've have liked to see the more original and creative story that was from the books. Robb breaking his contract for honour not for love is genre-busting, which is what the books are about and what the show was about initially. Also, I personally (and I know I'm not alone.) feel that the way the book took made Robb more sympathetic. The only real problem is Jeyne, in that she is something of a none character, but she could easily have been fleshed out into a more compelling love interest. And considering the fact that D+D have turned every female character save Cat and Sansa in badass girl-power girls, someone who wasn't so sassy and in-your-face could've been refreshing.

The problem with the Jeyne plotline from the book is not that he marries her for honour (which is kind of stupid considering that the two of them always had the option of just acting like they never had sex and that would have solved a lot of issues but regardless...). The main problem is the depiction of Robb having grief-sex with a nurse who is with him when he thinks his brothers are dead. Not only is that an extremely creepy thing to actually have to dramatize but you also then have to decide if he actually is developing a love interest in her before this occurs or whether she just happens to be the closest thing for him to bang. Seeing as they would probably have to have them displaying feelings for each other prior to having sex, it would have ended up being a love story anyways so it's not really a whole lot further off from what took place with Talisa and Robb on the show.

Some readers miss the point that it's not about the reasons for the marriage, it's the reasons for the sex that had to be altered.

As bookreaders, you can put all of the unpleasantness aside about how exactly Robb got into bed with this girl because it's all offscreen and you can just shrug your shoulders and say "I guess things made sense at the time..." but on the show, they would have to depict this coupling to the audience which wouldn't allow anyone to have the same suspension of disbelief.

I think the only genre-busting thing about the Jeyne Westerling plotline in the book is that Martin decided to have one of his main characters have an entire relationship and make a major life altering decision offscreen and casually lay it out for the other characters in a few lines after the fact.

[Werthead]

Agreed. And, lest we forget, the sole reason for Robb getting married (to anyone) is to set up the RW. The identity of the bride and the precise circumstances of the marriage are secondary, at best, when compared to that.

Having said that, I think the holding back of the news of Rickard and Bran's 'deaths' when it could much more convincingly explain both Robb and Cat's actions in the late-season period is a bit weird, and does not really make much sense.

[protar]

The problem with the Jeyne plotline from the book is not that he marries her for honour (which is kind of stupid considering that the two of them always had the option of just acting like they never had sex and that would have solved a lot of issues but regardless...). The main problem is the depiction of Robb having grief-sex with a nurse who is with him when he thinks his brothers are dead. Not only is that an extremely creepy thing to actually have to dramatize but you also then have to decide if he actually is developing a love interest in her before this occurs or whether she just happens to be the closest thing for him to bang. Seeing as they would probably have to have them displaying feelings for each other prior to having sex, it would have ended up being a love story anyways so it's not really a whole lot further off from what took place with Talisa and Robb on the show.

Some readers miss the point that it's not about the reasons for the marriage, it's the reasons for the sex that had to be altered.

As bookreaders, you can put all of the unpleasantness aside about how exactly Robb got into bed with this girl because it's all offscreen and you can just shrug your shoulders and say "I guess things made sense at the time..." but on the show, they would have to depict this coupling to the audience which wouldn't allow anyone to have the same suspension of disbelief.

I think the only genre-busting thing about the Jeyne Westerling plotline in the book is that Martin decided to have one of his main characters have an entire relationship and make a major life altering decision offscreen and casually lay it out for the other characters in a few lines after the fact.

Well firstly Robb and Jeyne in the books couldn't have pretended nothing had happened because her maidenhead would've been broken. Then if she later wed someone else this would be discovered to great offense. Not to mention how dishonourable lying would be :P .

I'm not sure how it would've been creepy. Perhaps if they were to show Robb passionately making love after talking about his dead brothers but the scene doesn't have to go so far. They could have them talking, then Robb breaks down, Jeyne holds him and they start kissing. Then the scene cuts off and it's only next episode when Robb is talking to Cat that we get a confirmation that they did it. That wouldn't have been creepy it would've been tender and tragic.

As for the build up, in the books Robb and Jeyne clearly had some affection for one another but not in a "let's have sex and get married" way. Now it would've been difficult, but with some skilled writing it could have been possible to give the vibe that Robb and Jeyne merely liked each other or at least that Robb was so set on marrying the Frey girl that nothing could happen.

And I disagree that the romance wasn't genre-busting. In most arranged marriage cases it's always broken for love (like in the show.). To break it for honour is more unique.

[Khal Porno]

It would have been unique, but it also would have played extremely poorly onscreen. I think having sex with someone (especially someone who is just at the right place at the right time) after finding out your brothers had been murdered is just gross and in poor taste, and I'm willing to bet many viewers would have agreed. I'm sure this was the producers' motivation for not having them learn about Bran and Rickon's "deaths." Also, it will be interesting to see how Robb deals with this news and it will add something that he has a wife to share it with. Actually the honor thing is not that unique, we've seen characters make dumb decisions for honor before and the shotgun wedding is as timeless a story device as a woman playing hard to get.

And again, since Robb's story was my biggest disappointment with the books, I had been looking forward to them showing his story onscreen and fleshing out his love for Jeyne (not to mention seeing how they gave her an actual personality), so I was actually pleasantly surprised that they doubled down and even gave her an interesting/unusual backstory.

You're right that lying would have been dishonorable, but if they don't tell anyone then it's like Spock said; "it wasn't a lie, it was an omission," haha. And the hymen membrane can be broken through strenuous physical exertion (or riding a horse, as the books even say), it doesn't have to be from sex. But that's neither here nor there; Martin did it the way he did it, and while I think it's creepy and a bit disappointing that all of Robb's story was offscreen, I don't feel that it's "bad" and I'm not going to complain and say it should have been different. Martin doesn't owe me anything, and neither do Benioff and Weiss.

Protar my problem isn't with you personally, my problem is when people get extremely bent out of shape over changes that have little consequence, and then say that the writing is unilaterally "bad" (I've even seen people on here call it an "abomination." How ridiculous), when really they are just disappointed that not everything is the same. I think it's OK to say "I wish Talisa had been Jeyne and they'd followed that story instead of creating something a bit different," the problem is saying "it's horrible writing!" or "it's a terrible adaptation and the producers have no respect for the source material!" Because I (and many, many others) think the writing on the show has been consistently excellent, and I've seen a LOT of adaptations where they have gutted the source material or changed things around completely so I recognize that as far as adaptations go, this may be the truest I've ever seen to the source material (especially considering how this is a huge book series to adapt).

[protar]

It would have been unique, but it also would have played extremely poorly onscreen. I think having sex with someone (especially someone who is just at the right place at the right time) after finding out your brothers had been murdered is just gross and in poor taste, and I'm willing to bet many viewers would have agreed. I'm sure this was the producers' motivation for not having them learn about Bran and Rickon's "deaths." Also, it will be interesting to see how Robb deals with this news and it will add something that he has a wife to share it with. Actually the honor thing is not that unique, we've seen characters make dumb decisions for honor before and the shotgun wedding is as timeless a story device as a woman playing hard to get.

And again, since Robb's story was my biggest disappointment with the books, I had been looking forward to them showing his story onscreen and fleshing out his love for Jeyne (not to mention seeing how they gave her an actual personality), so I was actually pleasantly surprised that they doubled down and even gave her an interesting/unusual backstory.

You're right that lying would have been dishonorable, but if they don't tell anyone then it's like Spock said; "it wasn't a lie, it was an omission," haha. And the hymen membrane can be broken through strenuous physical exertion (or riding a horse, as the books even say), it doesn't have to be from sex. But that's neither here nor there; Martin did it the way he did it, and while I think it's creepy and a bit disappointing that all of Robb's story was offscreen, I don't feel that it's "bad" and I'm not going to complain and say it should have been different. Martin doesn't owe me anything, and neither do Benioff and Weiss.

Protar my problem isn't with you personally, my problem is when people get extremely bent out of shape over changes that have little consequence, and then say that the writing is unilaterally "bad" (I've even seen people on here call it an "abomination." How ridiculous), when really they are just disappointed that not everything is the same. I think it's OK to say "I wish Talisa had been Jeyne and they'd followed that story instead of creating something a bit different," the problem is saying "it's horrible writing!" or "it's a terrible adaptation and the producers have no respect for the source material!" Because I (and many, many others) think the writing on the show has been consistently excellent, and I've seen a LOT of adaptations where they have gutted the source material or changed things around completely so I recognize that as far as adaptations go, this may be the truest I've ever seen to the source material (especially considering how this is a huge book series to adapt).

Well clearly we aren't going to agree. I think it could've been done well as in the books. If they'd glossed over the actual sex and just shown the prelude I don't think it would've looked creepy.

And while I am frustrated on the level that the story was changed, the fact that I think the writing is bad is a completely different complaint. There have been scenes from the books where I didn't like the writing and book deviations that I didn't like, but where I still felt the writing was good.

[PatrickStormborn]

Having said that, I think the holding back of the news of Rickard and Bran's 'deaths' when it could much more convincingly explain both Robb and Cat's actions in the late-season period is a bit weird, and does not really make much sense.

I think the only real explanation for this is so that there is a reason for Jojen and Meera to travel to Bran. If news has reached Howland Reed that Bran has been killed, why would his children go north?

[Khal-a-bunga]

I think the only real explanation for this is so that there is a reason for Jojen and Meera to travel to Bran. If news has reached Howland Reed that Bran has been killed, why would his children go north?

It'll likely tie in with Ramsay and Theon in season three, as well.

[protar]

I think the only real explanation for this is so that there is a reason for Jojen and Meera to travel to Bran. If news has reached Howland Reed that Bran has been killed, why would his children go north?

Well Jojen can greendream. Personally I'm convinced that they held back the news so that they could blame Cat for the RW.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Well Jojen can greendream. Personally I'm convinced that they held back the news so that they could blame Cat for the RW.

That doesn't make any sense. The "blame" for the Red Wedding has already been established; Robb broke his vow to the Frey's, and discontent has been sowed within his army. If anything, the show has given Catelyn less agency than she had in the books.

Jojen & Meera may play some part in the decision not to have news of Bran and Rickon "dying" reach Catelyn and Robb, but the main reason is likely to have something to do with Ramsay and Theon. Other posters here have detailed what seems to be a logical story line for those two, based on how the second season ended.

In any case, I'd be interested to hear how you came to the conclusion that D&D are setting up Catelyn to take the blame for the Red Wedding.

[oakenhelm]

In terms of people complaining about Talisa, I think they all need to go back and carefully read all of the chapters in the novels where Robb appears. In the books, Robb is a very young boy. He throws tantrums where he waves his sword around, for instance. He's very, very young, and the mistake he makes with Jeyne is the mistake of a young boy. Richard Madden is 26 years old, and the character of Robb has been considerably aged up as well. the basic childishness of book Robb's decision for marriage wouldn't have worked with a Robb played by Richard Madden. Did the Talisa story work? I'm not convinced it worked all that well, either, but I at least understand what they were trying to do, and why they felt they had to change the book.

As someone that found Robb's marriage a bit baffling in the text (I understand the reasons), I actually prefer the high born nurse from Volantis.

[Khal Porno]

As someone that found Robb's marriage a bit baffling in the text (I understand the reasons), I actually prefer the high born nurse from Volantis.

Thank you!

[protar]

That doesn't make any sense. The "blame" for the Red Wedding has already been established; Robb broke his vow to the Frey's, and discontent has been sowed within his army. If anything, the show has given Catelyn less agency than she had in the books.

Jojen & Meera may play some part in the decision not to have news of Bran and Rickon "dying" reach Catelyn and Robb, but the main reason is likely to have something to do with Ramsay and Theon. Other posters here have detailed what seems to be a logical story line for those two, based on how the second season ended.

In any case, I'd be interested to hear how you came to the conclusion that D&D are setting up Catelyn to take the blame for the Red Wedding.

Well if you look at the inside the episode interviews you'll see that they pin Robb sleeping with Talisa on Cat. Their line of thinking was that Cat had just done something he saw as wrong and dishonourable (freeing Jaime.) and then Robb just goes "screw it" and decides he's had it with being honourable if no one else is going to. So then he bangs Talisa. Then, later the deciding factor for Robb marrying Talisa is because Cat tells him not to and he basically just does it to spite her at that point (at least partially.). That's D+D words not mine. And if we look at how weakened Cat has been even since Season 1, it seems clear to me that they removed Bran and Rickon's "Deaths" as Robb's motivation, just so they could make it all Cat's fault.

[Daske]

Well if you look at the inside the episode interviews you'll see that they pin Robb sleeping with Talisa on Cat. Their line of thinking was that Cat had just done something he saw as wrong and dishonourable (freeing Jaime.) and then Robb just goes "screw it" and decides he's had it with being honourable if no one else is going to. So then he bangs Talisa. Then, later the deciding factor for Robb marrying Talisa is because Cat tells him not to and he basically just does it to spite her at that point (at least partially.). That's D+D words not mine. And if we look at how weakened Cat has been even since Season 1, it seems clear to me that they removed Bran and Rickon's "Deaths" as Robb's motivation, just so they could make it all Cat's fault.

I think their lovemaking and wedding was overall portrayed as meant to be for genuine love, but I agree that certainly the speed that things developed was partly rather childishly Robb doing it to spite his mum. That's definately the impression I got watching it. But that's not the same at all as them setting it Cat so the blame her for the RW. It's a huge jump, her actions are way removed from what happened - especially when she explicitly tells him not to get involved in the first place. Robb has a choice in all this and makes his choice, Cat didn't make that choice for him.

[protar]

I think their lovemaking and wedding was overall portrayed as meant to be for genuine love, but I agree that certainly the speed that things developed was partly rather childishly Robb doing it to spite his mum. That's definately the impression I got watching it. But that's not the same at all as them setting it Cat so the blame her for the RW. It's a huge jump, her actions are way removed from what happened - especially when she explicitly tells him not to get involved in the first place. Robb has a choice in all this and makes his choice, Cat didn't make that choice for him.

Yes it's not a direct link but the fact remains that D+D blame Cat for Robb sleeping with Talisa. And that will lead directly to the RW. If we compare that to the books when Cat has nothing to do with the coupling, well it's a worrying change with no other reasonable purpose I can discern.

And they've been spitting on Cat since season one: virtually all of her major decisions are given to others, and her practicality in urging Ned to KL and in sticking with Robb are replaced by Cat telling Ned to stay at Winterfell and her bemoaning how she should be back at Winterfell with Bran and Rickon. The events in the books were she's proactive in combat (hitting that guard with a brazier, slitting a clansmen's throat.) are removed and instead she just cowers in a corner. And now this, in addition to removing her reasoning for freeing Jaime.

It the same thing they're doing with Sansa: making her more bratty and unsympathetic, that's when they're not just excising her from the show entirely. And I have a theory that all of this stems from D+D's fixation on sassy, badass women and the fact that Cat and Sansa can't be changed into that so D+D hate them.

/Rant over.