Greatjon_umber Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Whorish?!? So, I guess you prefer your women chaste and pure? Just wow...Uh. Of course I do? Who wouldn't want a lover that's completely and utterly devoted to them, having just known them as a lover and building a connection through that? I don't even see why anyone would assume otherwise about me, or be outraged by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 This is interesting, actually. I was always under the impression that even though Cersei did have feelings for Jaime, she manipulated the shit out of him (there was that part where she wanted him to join the Kingsguard, remember?). Did I read it wrong?No, no, you got me wrong. I didn't exclude Jaime as an example of Cersei manipulating men. I excluded him as an example of Cersei doing it in such nakedly transactional way, although, towards the end, it did become something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 It's here, guys, for those interested in the Barristan discussion: http://asoiaf.wester...-beating-sansa/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I don't think its a fair to compare Sandor and Arys in regards to whether they were willing to beat Sansa. Sandor clearly had feelings for Sansa. He doesn't seem to have problems beating any other innocents (or killing the butcher's son). Sansa meant nothing to Arys, so he abused her. Therefore, he's an asshole regardless of whether he hit her lightly. A true knight would have drawn his sword against his brothers and escorted Sansa to safety.I actually agree with everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l3ol3o Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 No honey, what makes you-and the OP- sexist is that you both use a gendered insult to describe a strong female character.Oh that is such bullshit. I call males Dicks all the time. I don't here you crying sexist about that. Give me a break. I'll call females bitches and males Dicks if thats what I think they are and it doesn't mean that I'm sexist. Your looking for something that not there to prove your point that made little sense to begin with.I have no problem with people disagreeing with me that Arianne isn't a bitch. I do have a problem with people crying "Sexist!" if you do think that she is a bitch. It's not fair and completely false. I see this all the time in this forum by feminists who are so quick to use the "sexist" card when a male criticizes a female.Winter's Knight you are a prime example of this. I call a woman a bitch and I'm a sexist. Yet I call Littlefinger a Dick and you have no problem with that? Do you see a problem here?I guess in Winter Knight's eyes if you call anyone a bitch your automatically hate all women..... What a joke.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Oh that is such bullshit. I call males Dicks all the time. I don't here you crying sexist about that. Give me a break. I'll call females bitches and males Dicks if thats what I think they are.And I'll continue to call you sexist, since that is clearly what you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David C. Hunter Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Listen we dont always have to be politically correct when talking about fictional characters. It was a bitchy thing to do for Arianne Martell, thus she is a bitch. I dont see a whole lot of difference between calling a seducer and user a bitch.P.S. Arianne Martell is my favorite female character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Soprano Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 P.S. Arianne Martell is my favorite female characterSame here. She's awesome. :) :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l3ol3o Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 And I'll continue to call you sexist, since that is clearly what you are.They say you know you won an arguement when the other side reverts to name calling. All you can do is call me a sexist when it seems pretty clear to me that your the one with the gender issues. You can't accept women being called a Bitch but your perfectly alright with men being called dicks. It's pathetic and sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l3ol3o Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Listen we dont always have to be politically correct when talking about fictional characters. It was a bitchy thing to do for Arianne Martell, thus she is a bitch. I dont see a whole lot of difference between calling a seducer and user a bitch.P.S. Arianne Martell is my favorite female characterOh watch out! You call anyone a bitch on this forum and your a misogynist sexist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServantOnIce Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I think she loved Se Aerys.I am a big Aerys Oakheart fan and he was PLAYED like a Dollar Tree drum. Love takes time to build past the initial phase of lust/enchantment . . she didn't love him, she PLAYED him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Welcome to feminism, which is pretty much reverse sexism with women thinking they're the top of the food chain. Just don't take them seriously, I tend not to and it saves me from growing white hairs on this forum.I'm usually pretty laid back about the gender issues on here. With that said, namecalling characters, whether "bitch" or "dicks" just isn't that productive for conversation, because those words aren't very precise in getting to the issues at hand, and because they can be loaded terms with additional connotation that is not always intended, though embedded. Callus, manipulative, insensitive, etc are more precise and productive, and probably would have by-passed the entire sexism debate.Instinctively, I don't like the idea of trading one's body for some kind of profit. But a woman in the world of ASOIAF does not have much bargaining capital, and sex in Dorne is treated much differently than elsewhere in Westeros- far less moral shame. She does not have access to lands that she can offer him instead (and Arys couldn't hold lands as a KG anyway), or other chips she could set before him. Instead, she uses the resource she does have control over. One could make the argument that it's wrong to play tiddly-winks with poor Arys' heart, but I think the fact he falls for it makes him utterly foolish rather than Arienne a guilty bitch/ whore/ vortex. Personally, I think the seduction is a cheap trick, but it seems to work well enough. I think this says more about the men than the women involved for its persistence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Martin Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Favorite female? Really?Sure her chapters turn me on, but favorite female character? Better than Arya? Sansa? Brienne? I'm not saying I don't enjoy them, but favorite is strong, IMOBut I think Arienne is the bellwether for House Martell. She's going to do big things, the only question is will they end up the ruin of House Martell? Or, as it just occurred to me, could she be the ruin of all of Varys work? Could she seduce Aegon and could that result in him making some really bad choices? She has a track record of seducing men to go along with her plans and them not working out for the man involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Listen we dont always have to be politically correct when talking about fictional characters. It was a bitchy thing to do for Arianne Martell, thus she is a bitch. I dont see a whole lot of difference between calling a seducer and user a bitch.P.S. Arianne Martell is my favorite female characterI'm not the PC police or anything, but idk, it just seemed excessive towards Arianne. She did care for the man. If it was Cersei, y'know, that would be much easier, but I don't think what Arianne did compares. She played him yeah, but it wasn't all cold-hearted. She didn't want him to die. That's just my opinion, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatjon_umber Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I'm usually pretty laid back about the gender issues on here. With that said, namecalling characters, whether "bitch" or "dicks" just isn't that productive for conversation, because those words aren't very precise in getting to the issues at hand, and because they can be loaded terms with additional connotation that is not always intended, though embedded. Callus, manipulative, insensitive, etc are more precise and productive, and probably would have by-passed the entire sexism debate.Instinctively, I don't like the idea of trading one's body for some kind of profit. But a woman in the world of ASOIAF does not have much bargaining capital, and sex in Dorne is treated much differently than elsewhere in Westeros- far less moral shame. She does not have access to lands that she can offer him instead (and Arys couldn't hold lands as a KG anyway), or other chips she could set before him. Instead, she uses the resource she does have control over. One could make the argument that it's wrong to play tiddly-winks with poor Arys' heart, but I think the fact he falls for it makes him utterly foolish rather than Arienne a guilty bitch/ whore/ vortex. Personally, I think the seduction is a cheap trick, but it seems to work well enough. I think this says more about the men than the women involved for its persistence.Yes, he's a big boy, and she's a big girl. If he can be held responsible for his actions, why can't she? Obviously he was a dope, but as a helpless romantic myself, I can understand. He had emotions for the girl, she abused those and took advantage of him. Had the genders been reversed, like in maybe Littlefinger's situation with Lysa, I'd of course say the same thing about him taking advantage of her. And there are other tools women have, Brienne being a grand example of how a woman can rely on other tools for their exploits. Even Arya, whom isn't nearly as "blessed" as Brienne with size would still be ore then capable of ending a few lives with that needle of hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David C. Hunter Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I'm usually pretty laid back about the gender issues on here. With that said, namecalling characters, whether "bitch" or "dicks" just isn't that productive for conversation, because those words aren't very precise in getting to the issues at hand, and because they can be loaded terms with additional connotation that is not always intended, though embedded. Callus, manipulative, insensitive, etc are more precise and productive, and probably would have by-passed the entire sexism debate.Instinctively, I don't like the idea of trading one's body for some kind of profit. But a woman in the world of ASOIAF does not have much bargaining capital, and sex in Dorne is treated much differently than elsewhere in Westeros- far less moral shame. She does not have access to lands that she can offer him instead (and Arys couldn't hold lands as a KG anyway), or other chips she could set before him. Instead, she uses the resource she does have control over. One could make the argument that it's wrong to play tiddly-winks with poor Arys' heart, but I think the fact he falls for it makes him utterly foolish rather than Arienne a guilty bitch/ whore/ vortex. Personally, I think the seduction is a cheap trick, but it seems to work well enough. I think this says more about the men than the women involved for its persistence.Mainly the reason for that is because we have many different backgrounds and ethnicities on this forum and many people have different interpretations of slang and slurs, but speaking for americans, when I call Arianne Martell a bitch 99% americans know what I mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David C. Hunter Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Favorite female? Really?Sure her chapters turn me on, but favorite female character? Better than Arya? Sansa? Brienne? I'm not saying I don't enjoy them, but favorite is strong, IMOBut I think Arienne is the bellwether for House Martell. She's going to do big things, the only question is will they end up the ruin of House Martell? Or, as it just occurred to me, could she be the ruin of all of Varys work? Could she seduce Aegon and could that result in him making some really bad choices? She has a track record of seducing men to go along with her plans and them not working out for the man involved.I love Arianne Martell. I love the Martells and the culture of Dorne in general. Arianne Martell seems to be hitting her potential in winds of winter and I believe she is politically smart and motivated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatjon_umber Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I love Arianne Martell. I love the Martells and the culture of Dorne in general. Arianne Martell seems to be hitting her potential in winds of winter and I believe she is politically smart and motivatedI just can't imagine the Dorne ever being a real major player. I mean they had a chance with that one prince, Doran or whatever his name was, that -SPOILER- got roasted alive by the dragon. They're just not as powerful as the other Lords of Westeros IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Yes, he's a big boy, and she's a big girl. If he can be held responsible for his actions, why can't she? Obviously he was a dope, but as a helpless romantic myself, I can understand. He had emotions for the girl, she abused those and took advantage of him. Had the genders been reversed, like in maybe Littlefinger's situation with Lysa, I'd of course say the same thing about him taking advantage of her. And there are other tools women have, Brienne being a grand example of how a woman can rely on other tools for their exploits. Even Arya, whom isn't nearly as "blessed" as Brienne with size would still be ore then capable of ending a few lives with that needle of hers.Well but Brienne and Arya are terrible examples of "other weapons women have". Because they are the 2 specific females (and the Mormonts I guess) who are clearly using men's weapons - violence and swords and whatever. That is not a woman's place in Westeros. They are trained (as Cersei puts it) so smile and please and flirt, and not to fight. It's unfair to blame other ladies who are not so "liberated" for not picking up a sword and fighting their own battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Soprano Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I just can't imagine the Dorne ever being a real major player. I mean they had a chance with that one prince, Doran or whatever his name was, that -SPOILER- got roasted alive by the dragon. They're just not as powerful as the other Lords of Westeros IMO.They want to be that way. They don't want to be involved in the court intrigue in King's Landing. They choose to be isolated, and they have the greatest autonomy of all the other regions and they like it that way. That's why I like Dorne. Most of the time when King's Landing wants something from them, they either ignore them or tell the Kings to go F-himself. What's not to like? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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