Reading Women In Westoros

[Kittykatknits]

This leads me to some questions I raised in another thread about Dany's rebellion against practices that demean women, remove the agency of women, or persist to reinforce systems of female oppression. We see Dany rebel against joining the crones, as well as refuse to wash Hizdar’s feet and be examined by his family prior to their marriage. I know that she’s criticized for not respecting traditions in societies she intends to rule, while others praise these rebellious acts as Dany’s assertion of power and agency against oppressive customs.

I think there is a real quandary here. As I said in the other thread, I can only praise her rebellious acts so far given the fact that she finds some of these practices problematic only as they pertain to her. Dany is exclusively the woman who holds power in her own right as Queen. She has the power to change customs outright, such as ban the practice of gyno exams for brides, or take a stance on voluntary retirement to the crones. Now, I’m not saying that she ought to have enforced these changes to customs, or have enacted a successful “Equal Rights Act.” Where I personally feel disappointment is that she does not consider the plight of other women in these institutional practices. I’m not asking her to come up with a strategy to overturn oppressive practices, but to at least consider the systems she’s personally rebelling against in a wider context. As it stands, she picks and chooses which customs she wants to personally follow, but does not challenge (even in her own thoughts) the overall systems that foster these sorts of oppression. I can’t speak for everyone, but this is one of the reasons I can only praise her individual instances of bucking the system so far. Though I agree with the stances she takes on these matters, it disappoints me that it is less about women’s rights and more about what Dany personally does not want to do.

I know that it terms of physical violence to women, Dany feels a great deal of empathy for her gender, and there is something to be said to that end. She also includes provisions where a man cannot sell his wife into slavery, so we do have some seeds of equality forming. I’ve been known to criticize Dany for being far too myopic in her views in a variety of matters, but I’m not looking to assassinate her character here by any means. I just want to express my disappointment that I see potential for Dany to open her view on this topic, especially given the fact that as the one Queen who rules in her own right, she could bring a form of equality to Westeros or elsewhere at some point.

I agree with you on this. I would love to see Dany overturning the patriarchal structure of Westeros, and I think it's quite a likely posibility (what else is the purpose of Dorne in the long-run, if not to establish a liberal precedent?). She couldn't really change much in Meereen because she was still trying to work with the nobles. If she had embraced fire and blood as soon as she started her rule, I'm sure we would have seen some huge changes with regards to the treatment of women.

I know Martin has stated that he meant to draw comparsisons between Cersei and Dany when it comes to the ways to ruling and both your posts show that in action. As you point out, Dany pushes back on the treatment of herself as a woman in Mereen - refusing to submit to the exam and wash her husband's feet. She takes some steps but has not yet made the connection that she has the power to bring changes to other women, not just herself.

We can contrast some of her thoughts and actions with Cersei, who is ruling as regent during this time. Cersei experiences some of the same frustration that Dany does. We know from her words that she feels as if she was sold off in marriage to be ridden by her husband whenver he wanted. She resents that she never had power or agency in the way that her brother had. She is angry when her father tries to arrange another marriage for her. Yet, like Dany, she does not make the connection that her suffering is the same as other women. In fact, she perpetuates the patriarchial system. Cersei has wished rape on other women and given them to Qyurn for torture. The most glaring example for me is her treatment of Sansa just before the marriage to Tyrion. She feels some pity for Sansa but not much. Cersei is a victim but also becomes a victimizer. I don't think she'll ever be able to make the connection between herself and the treatment of women as a whole. As both of you have mentioned, if Dany ever sits the Iron Throne, she would do so while exercising power in her own right, in a way that Cersei has never been able to do. If this happens, Dany would be uniquely positioned to make changes that no other woman in the books is currently able to do.

The problem is that Dany did not choose to become Drogo's khaleesi. She embraced the role, yes, but she never actively chose it. So why should she go and join the Crones at Vaes Dothrak?

She still calls herself "Khaleesi", but her role is no longer one of a khaleesi; she rules as a female khal now.

I think we're mostly in agreement. After I posted above, I realized I'd forgotten to mention a condition of a "khaleesi losing power on her husband's death." Whether Khaleeses lost their power upon their husbands' deaths doesn't really pertain to Dany, since it is precisely upon her husband's death that she attains power in her own right. I agree that it makes little sense for Dany to go into retirement at this point. If I take the purpose of the Dosh Khaleen to be positive in the sense that women are revered, and this is a way to provide for women who would otherwise have no way to live out respected lives according to Dothraki customs, then Dany does not even need this "safety blanket." It's quite pointless for Dany to retire as a "powerless wife" if she has power and means.

Butterbumps!, you brought up the Dosh Khaleen in your prevous posts and had some really great insights on it's supposed purpose. As you note, the reverence shown there is in very sharp contrast with the treatment of women in other areas of Dothraki culture. After Drogo's death, as you both note, Dany seizes power in her own right and now rules as a female khal, regardless of what title she uses. I think Dany's act is a perfect example of exactly what the Dosh Khaleen is meant to prevent. The wives of khals are able to wield some power and it is possible that they may attempt to rule in their own right after the death of her husband, just as Dany did. But, if they go to the Dosh Khaleen, they are permanently removed from any position that may usurp male authority or threaten the patriarchial nature of Dothraki culture. The reverence given to the crones is really another way removing them from power. I'm not saying this is the only purpose behind the Dosh Khaleen at all but it does play an element.

[butterbumps!]

Many may not agree with me (or do not want to)but I think when she is presented with a Targaryen who has a stronger claim than her she will not step aside but marry him to strengthen their claims but I know we disagree on the textual clues as to what her relationship with Jon will be like.

Ha! Yes, the one subject we will never agree on! I'm going to put this out there. I'm strongly against Dany's marrying even for strengthening claims because she's the Queen in her own right. I like your Nymeria parallels, and how Nym married and integrated, but I'd feel very conflicted if Dany chose this path. I feel that she's exclusively in a position (as a female) to eschew marriage as a political tool. I suppose that marriage could be a peaceful vehicle by which to maintain stability, but I'm curious (hoping) to see if Dany's arc can be resolved by

A. Not needing Tyrion the miracle worker to school her in the ways of governance, turning her arc into the Eliza Doolittle of military strategy and

B. Maintaining her power in her own right without compromising that power through the institution of marriage.

Though I cannot say I favor her methods of exercising this power, I'd really prefer to see Dany grow into a leader though her own reflection and epiphanies, and to reject marriage as political alliance-building, which just perpetuates the system of primogeniture in its current practice.

[Valkyrja]

b. Females do something stupid and unthinking that starts a whole chain of horrible events (Sansa confiding in Cersei, Cat kidnapping Tyrion, Arianne trying to crown Myrcella) before they are gradually shown to be smarter than first appearances.

Obviously there are characters of either gender that don't fit these categories (Arya kills for her own survival), others who don't get a chance for a redemptive arc (Lysa - who kills and kickstarts everything but is never redeemed) or a male who does something stupid (Robb and Jeyne W.) but overall women (and Sansa was only an 11yo child) seem to perform some of the stupidest acts while men perform some of the most vicious, yet men seem to be forgiven more easily for their repugnant acts. Why?

You really hit on something with the 'chain of events' thing. I have to wonder if some of hate for the women/girls who make these mistakes is because their mistakes are viewed to have caused a terrible chain of events that end up completely ruining the male characters' plans (see: Cat wrt Robb, Sansa wrt Ned, etc.).

A. Not needing Tyrion the miracle worker to school her in the ways of governance, turning her arc into the Eliza Doolittle of military strategy and

I would really love to see Tyrion challenged a bit when it comes to Dany.....sort of a battle of strong wills, in that Tyrion is able to view Dany with respect and speak to her with respect. I think it is significant that his arc has been highlighting how little he respects women at the moment, and I think he will have to change the way he talks to and about women if he is going to survive around Dany. (I suppose that is why he had to meet Penny first?)

[Winter's Knight]

Ha! Yes, the one subject we will never agree on! I'm going to put this out there. I'm strongly against Dany's marrying even for strengthening claims because she's the Queen in her own right. I like your Nymeria parallels, and how Nym married and integrated, but I'd feel very conflicted if Dany chose this path. I feel that she's exclusively in a position (as a female) to eschew marriage as a political tool. I suppose that marriage could be a peaceful vehicle by which to maintain stability, but I'm curious (hoping) to see if Dany's arc can be resolved by

A. Not needing Tyrion the miracle worker to school her in the ways of governance, turning her arc into the Eliza Doolittle of military strategy and

B. Maintaining her power in her own right without compromising that power through the institution of marriage.

Though I cannot say I favor her methods of exercising this power, I'd really prefer to see Dany grow into a leader though her own reflection and epiphanies, and to reject marriage as political alliance-building, which just perpetuates the system of primogeniture in its current practice.

Butterbumps! I am in full agreement with you on this-the narrative seems to be heading towards Dany dying in childbirth and leaving Jon+heir to rule and I mislike this intensely. I'd really like it if-as Kittykatnits said on another thread-the series ends with Westorosi society having evolved enough to have women wielding power in their own right.

[Silmarien]

Butterbumps! I am in full agreement with you on this-the narrative seems to be heading towards Dany dying in childbirth and leaving Jon+heir to rule and I mislike this intensely. I'd really like it if-as Kittykatnits said on another thread-the series ends with Westorosi society having evolved enough to have women wielding power in their own right.

I'd prefer it honestly if MMD's curse has already been fulfilled (sea=dothraki grass drying up, Sun's son rose in East set in West, mountains=pyramids blowing in the wind, and Drogo[n] coming when Dany calls him).

I'd prefer if Dany lives and reclaims Westeros, becomes a better ruler, grows up a bit, and helps in the fight with The Others before sitting on the Iron Throne.

I also hope Tyrion has to seriously prove himself to Dany before she trusts him.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ha! Yes, the one subject we will never agree on! I'm going to put this out there. I'm strongly against Dany's marrying even for strengthening claims because she's the Queen in her own right. I like your Nymeria parallels, and how Nym married and integrated, but I'd feel very conflicted if Dany chose this path. I feel that she's exclusively in a position (as a female) to eschew marriage as a political tool. I suppose that marriage could be a peaceful vehicle by which to maintain stability, but I'm curious (hoping) to see if Dany's arc can be resolved by

A. Not needing Tyrion the miracle worker to school her in the ways of governance, turning her arc into the Eliza Doolittle of military strategy and

B. Maintaining her power in her own right without compromising that power through the institution of marriage.

Though I cannot say I favor her methods of exercising this power, I'd really prefer to see Dany grow into a leader though her own reflection and epiphanies, and to reject marriage as political alliance-building, which just perpetuates the system of primogeniture in its current practice.

LOL! :P

A. I think Tyrion will be in her entourage but he is going to turn on her eventually I think because of what Quaithe and Moqorro said. I wouldn't be surprised if he betrays her if she tries to burn the Kingslayer.

B. Would be nice. I think the second Dance of the Dragons will have a female victor this time which should give Dany the opportunity to undo the Targ law. She has a big battle ahead of her though. It's been illustrated that she's going to invade Westeros with people who are hated- Tyrion, Greyjoys, maybe Dothraki, foreigners, etc. Then Cersei did the disastrous thing and rearmed the Faith which should be another problem. Then there's the fact that she can only control Drogon who may be the best of the dragons but she still has an emotional attachment to the other two. She can't control who they pick as riders. Then Westeros/KL may become apocalyptic before she even gets to the throne which was kind of hinted at on the t.v. show.

Butterbumps! I am in full agreement with you on this-the narrative seems to be heading towards Dany dying in childbirth and leaving Jon+heir to rule and I mislike this intensely. I'd really like it if-as Kittykatnits said on another thread-the series ends with Westorosi society having evolved enough to have women wielding power in their own right.

I don't want that to happen but I think it makes the most sense as an interpretation. I think MMD cursed her and effectively killed her in the long run which is why I'm glad that Dany at least burned the witch.

I would prefer it if Jon and Dany were able to model themselves after Jaehaerys I and Alyssane. Alysanne was his closest adviser and she had lots of power. Jon thinks in ADWD that women are the strong ones and he's submissive when he's around females imo. Ygritte, Melisandre, and Val talked down to him. I think he would let her have power whereas based on what Aegon said he seems to think that women have no business ruling. I think Aegon's feelings are how most men in Westeros might think though. It's been illustrated that most Targaryen women didn't have a lot of power. Their kings chose whether or not to give it to them. I would like it if Dany could rule from the Iron Throne in her own right but at the same time I'm reminded how Jon's arc in ADWD showed what happens when someone tries to radically change the system. People are resistant and react when they feel alienated or when the status quo is threatened. An apocalypse could help her though as Stannis said:

"I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."

She may naturally be seen as a leader. This applies to Jon as well though.

[romantic]

This may be off-topic but I was wondering about how to define the rock wives vs salt wives of the Ironborn and the spear wives of the Wildlings. With the Ironborn are the rock wives, Ironborn women who are mistresses or defactos, and saltwives, women kidnapped from elsewhere and used as mistresses, defactos or hostages? And are spearwives, kidnapped wildling mistresses or defactos (or possibly hostages) or our equivalent of modern, career women - not married and free to leave/kill the man at any time?

By defactos I mean they are in a defacto marriage to all intents and purposes but without having exchanged formal vows.

Any ideas?

[Winter's Knight]

This may be off-topic but I was wondering about how to define the rock wives vs salt wives of the Ironborn and the spear wives of the Wildlings. With the Ironborn are the rock wives, Ironborn women who are mistresses or defactos, and saltwives, women kidnapped from elsewhere and used as mistresses, defactos or hostages? And are spearwives, kidnapped wildling mistresses or defactos (or possibly hostages) or our equivalent of modern, career women - not married and free to leave/kill the man at any time?

By defactos I mean they are in a defacto marriage to all intents and purposes but without having exchanged formal vows.

Any ideas?

Rock wives are actual wives-they bear heirs and a man may only have one living rock wife.

Salt wives are mistresses/spoils of war but their children are not bastards strictly speaking. The father is supposed to care and provide for her and her children.

Wildling women are stolen by men from other villages. If she doesn't like the man, she is free to kill him and leave.

Spearwives are Wildling women who can fight but they're not necessarily married or attached to anyone.

[Lyanna Stark]

You really hit on something with the 'chain of events' thing. I have to wonder if some of hate for the women/girls who make these mistakes is because their mistakes are viewed to have caused a terrible chain of events that end up completely ruining the male characters' plans (see: Cat wrt Robb, Sansa wrt Ned, etc.).

It also seems that people have an easier time to forget and forgive murderous intents (Jaime) or cruelty than they do "mistakes" like Sansa going to Cersei or Cat arresting Tyrion, or Dany staying in Meereen, i.e. things that at the time didn't seem like such bad ideas, but that in the long run due to circumstances prove worse than expected. These type of "mistakes" mostly seem to happen to the female characters as well so it does set an odd precedent and is probably one of the reasons why a lot of readers disregard the larger structure and only focus on the effect of a certain action in isolation: hence why a lot of female characters get called "stupid".

I would really love to see Tyrion challenged a bit when it comes to Dany.....sort of a battle of strong wills, in that Tyrion is able to view Dany with respect and speak to her with respect. I think it is significant that his arc has been highlighting how little he respects women at the moment, and I think he will have to change the way he talks to and about women if he is going to survive around Dany. (I suppose that is why he had to meet Penny first?)

I can't actually recall Tyrion thinking about what Dany will be like much. He seems focused on getting there, and talks about how he will offer her his services, but we don't really see him spending a lot of time and effort really thinking about it as far as I can remember. Does he assume that her weak female self will just accept him as he is? Is he worried that she will in fact come down on him in Fire & Blood and kill him? I can't really tell what he expects. Maybe he's more focused on getting from A to B in a "one step at a time" sort of thinking. He has had some information that should indicate to him that Dany may not be your ordinary young woman, but can he really process it? Btw I loved how she inadvertedly saved Tyrion's life already, without knowing it, although to her he was just a dwarf performer and nothign special. He owes her a life debt already and I hope he remembers that and really does give her a hand, and not in the "Let me teach you how it's done little girl" but that he can finally find a purpose in assisting a rule that actually wants to do good, but is lacking the tools to do so.

Tyrion will need to make amends, and perhaps his doesn't lie in the personal sphere but on a macro level where he can use his know how in making Westeros a better and more functioning place, sort of like when he fixed the plumbing at Casterly Rock.

[mythsandstuff]

Rock wives are actual wives-they bear heirs and a man may only have one living rock wife.

Salt wives are mistresses/spoils of war but their children are not bastards strictly speaking. The father is supposed to care and provide for her and her children.

I know Victarion has a history of being abusive, but I also kind of assumed that salt wives were subject to more _consistent_ abuse than rock wives. This is to say that his treatment of the "dusky woman" skeeves me out, and I hope she kills him.

At some point, I hope we can talk about all the women who disguise themselves (Sarella (my personal fave), KotLT, Danny Flint, Arya, Sansa, Yara on meeting Theon, Quaithe, and probably some more I'm not thinking of because they're figurative rather than literal). Y'all have probably discussed this at length in other threads, but I'm new, and still thinking it through.

[Winter's Knight]

I know Victarion has a history of being abusive, but I also kind of assumed that salt wives were subject to more _consistent_ abuse than rock wives. This is to say that his treatment of the "dusky woman" skeeves me out, and I hope she kills him.

She's not his salt wife though, just a bedwarmer.

Also, I think Victarion is rather more violent than most other men.

At some point, I hope we can talk about all the women who disguise themselves (Sarella (my personal fave), KotLT, Danny Flint, Arya, Sansa, Yara on meeting Theon, Quaithe, and probably some more I'm not thinking of because they're figurative rather than literal). Y'all have probably discussed this at length in other threads, but I'm new, and still thinking it through.

Do you remember the story of brave Danny Flint? She disguised herself as a boy and joined the Night's Watch. Noted for being brave, shewas discovered at the Nightfort where her sworn brothers raped and murdered her. Her ghost still walks the castle apparently.

The story interests me for two reasons: one being the treachery of her brothers of the watch and the other is how much it sounds like a hyperbolic cautionary tale to young girls. Stay in your designated place or you will suffer horribly and no one will help you.

Don't have sex, because you will get pregnant and die!

[mythsandstuff]

She's not his salt wife though, just a bedwarmer.

Also, I think Victarion is rather more violent than most other men.

Do you remember the story of brave Danny Flint? She disguised herself as a boy and joined the Night's Watch. Noted for being brave, shewas discovered at the Nightfort where her sworn brothers raped and murdered her. Her ghost still walks the castle apparently.

The story interests me for two reasons: one being the treachery of her brothers of the watch and the other is how much it sounds like a hyperbolic cautionary tale to young girls. Stay in your designated place or you will suffer horribly and no one will help you.

Don't have sex, because you will get pregnant and die!

Re: the dusky woman, I guess I figured salt wives were favored bedwarmers who got brought home; have we seen any rock or salt wives yet?

Danny Flint is fascinating to me, and lately I've been wondering if she might not be transgender - maybe it's because I've seen The Brandon Teena Story recently, but I keep thinking about what happened to Brandon, and the parallel between Brandon's fate and Danny's is striking. I also kind of wonder if he's not setting up Sarella as transgender - the ladies in Oldtown love him, and a recurring theme in the interviews with Brandon's girlfriends is that (except for the stealing) he was the best boyfriend ever. Maybe this part belongs on the Queer Eye thread, but I do want to think more on the larger pattern - is it a commentary about desire for opportunity, a note on safety, some queering of gender constructs, or is he saying something else?

ETA: I forgot to add Cersei dressing up as Jaime when they were children to the list.

[Lummel]

...At some point, I hope we can talk about all the women who disguise themselves ...Yara on meeting Theon...

Yara? You mean Asha? She isn't in disguise - Theon doesn't recognise her because he has since her for many years, all the other men know who she is.

[mythsandstuff]

Yara? You mean Asha? She isn't in disguise - Theon doesn't recognise her because he has since her for many years, all the other men know who she is.

Damn TV show! Yes, I meant Asha. Sorry. I didn't mean that she physically disguises herself, but she does kind of adopt the disguise her offers her by failing to recognize her.

[mythsandstuff]

Double post. Nothing to see here.

[Lyanna Stark]

She's not his salt wife though, just a bedwarmer.

Also, I think Victarion is rather more violent than most other men.

It's not only Victarion, the entire Ironborn culture seems pretty hideous. Not excusing Vicky here btw. but it's fairly striking that his follow Ironborn don't seem to really care that he beat his wife to death. To compare, on the mainland at least people seem to think Gregor Clegane is a monster, but among the Ironborn, fairly similar behaviour from Vicky hardly gets people to bat an eyelid. In fact, some guy seems intent on having him marry his not yet 16 year old daughter before the Kingsmoot. At least in the rest of Westeros capturing and making women effectively sex slaves is frowned upon, but the Ironborn seem to think this is ok sort of behaviour.

Almost everything about Victarion skeeves me out by the way.

[Lummel]

It's not only Victarion, the entire Ironborn culture seems pretty hideous. Not excusing Vicky here btw. but it's fairly striking that his follow Ironborn don't seem to really care that he beat his wife to death...

Don't know - Asha doesn't know what happened to his salt wife, it all seems to have been kept very secret. Of course that might be because of the family scandal of Euron sleeping with her rather than wanting to cover up the ultra-violence but I don't think there is enough to say for sure.

[brashcandy]

Danny Flint is fascinating to me, and lately I've been wondering if she might not be transgender - maybe it's because I've seen The Brandon Teena Story recently, but I keep thinking about what happened to Brandon, and the parallel between Brandon's fate and Danny's is striking. I also kind of wonder if he's not setting up Sarella as transgender - the ladies in Oldtown love him, and a recurring theme in the interviews with Brandon's girlfriends is that (except for the stealing) he was the best boyfriend ever. Maybe this part belongs on the Queer Eye thread, but I do want to think more on the larger pattern - is it a commentary about desire for opportunity, a note on safety, some queering of gender constructs, or is he saying something else?

ETA: I forgot to add Cersei dressing up as Jaime when they were children to the list.

It's too early to say (without more information) about Sarella's gender identity, but based on the pattern that Martin has already established, I would say that he isn't going to portray her as transgendered. Alleras and Danny Flint are presented as women passing as men in order to infiltrate male only organizations, a radical strategy undoubtedly, but which seems geared towards a specific goal, rather than an exploration of how queer identities function in that society. Similarly with Cersei, she realises very early on that dressed as Jaime she is allowed certain privileges, whereas when she's back as "Cersei" she's once again restricted because of her sex. I do think these women are valuable for a discussion on gender as performance, and how we might begin to understand masculinity and femininity as social constructs of time and place.

[Kittykatknits]

Re: the dusky woman, I guess I figured salt wives were favored bedwarmers who got brought home; have we seen any rock or salt wives yet?

Victarion's wife that he beat to death was a salt wife. From my obeservation on Ironborn culture, women seem to be fair game when it comes to how they are treated. The dusky women is merely a bed warmer, a slave really. Theon's mother was a rock wife but we have not had many glimpses of rock wives within the Ironborn either.

It also seems that people have an easier time to forget and forgive murderous intents (Jaime) or cruelty than they do "mistakes" like Sansa going to Cersei or Cat arresting Tyrion, or Dany staying in Meereen, i.e. things that at the time didn't seem like such bad ideas, but that in the long run due to circumstances prove worse than expected. These type of "mistakes" mostly seem to happen to the female characters as well so it does set an odd precedent and is probably one of the reasons why a lot of readers disregard the larger structure and only focus on the effect of a certain action in isolation: hence why a lot of female characters get called "stupid".

I can't actually recall Tyrion thinking about what Dany will be like much. He seems focused on getting there, and talks about how he will offer her his services, but we don't really see him spending a lot of time and effort really thinking about it as far as I can remember. Does he assume that her weak female self will just accept him as he is? Is he worried that she will in fact come down on him in Fire & Blood and kill him? I can't really tell what he expects. Maybe he's more focused on getting from A to B in a "one step at a time" sort of thinking. He has had some information that should indicate to him that Dany may not be your ordinary young woman, but can he really process it? Btw I loved how she inadvertedly saved Tyrion's life already, without knowing it, although to her he was just a dwarf performer and nothign special. He owes her a life debt already and I hope he remembers that and really does give her a hand, and not in the "Let me teach you how it's done little girl" but that he can finally find a purpose in assisting a rule that actually wants to do good, but is lacking the tools to do so.

Tyrion will need to make amends, and perhaps his doesn't lie in the personal sphere but on a macro level where he can use his know how in making Westeros a better and more functioning place, sort of like when he fixed the plumbing at Casterly Rock.

It also seems that people have an easier time to forget and forgive murderous intents (Jaime) or cruelty than they do "mistakes" like Sansa going to Cersei or Cat arresting Tyrion, or Dany staying in Meereen, i.e. things that at the time didn't seem like such bad ideas, but that in the long run due to circumstances prove worse than expected. These type of "mistakes" mostly seem to happen to the female characters as well so it does set an odd precedent and is probably one of the reasons why a lot of readers disregard the larger structure and only focus on the effect of a certain action in isolation: hence why a lot of female characters get called "stupid".

Ned receives criticism for tipping off Cersei and Robb for marrying Jeyne. But, they seem to be forgiven for it, or at least, don't receive the judgment and hate that the female characters do. I'm trying to think of any mistakes that male characters have committed that have led to similar reactions and I can not think of any.

Do you remember the story of brave Danny Flint? She disguised herself as a boy and joined the Night's Watch. Noted for being brave, shewas discovered at the Nightfort where her sworn brothers raped and murdered her. Her ghost still walks the castle apparently.

The story interests me for two reasons: one being the treachery of her brothers of the watch and the other is how much it sounds like a hyperbolic cautionary tale to young girls. Stay in your designated place or you will suffer horribly and no one will help you.

Don't have sex, because you will get pregnant and die!

From what we have learned, it seems the story of Danny Flint is a northern one too, I'm not sure how well known it is in the south. It is a cautionary tale, it's ok for girls to push boundaries a bit but with Danny Flit we see what happens when they push gender norms to far.

[mythsandstuff]

It's too early to say (without more information) about Sarella's gender identity, but based on the pattern that Martin has already established, I would say that he isn't going to portray her as transgendered. Alleras and Danny Flint are presented as women passing as men in order to infiltrate male only organizations, a radical strategy undoubtedly, but which seems geared towards a specific goal, rather than an exploration of how queer identities function in that society. Similarly with Cersei, she realises very early on that dressed as Jaime she is allowed certain privileges, whereas when she's back as "Cersei" she's once again restricted because of her sex. I do think these women are valuable for a discussion on gender as performance, and how we might begin to understand masculinity and femininity as social constructs of time and place.

I agree on the too early to tell. I really want an Alleras POV, and I know I'm not going to get it :( Since both Alleras and Danny are presented by other characters, though, it leaves room (IMO) for it not just to be about infiltration but possibly also about carving out space for expression, which is also how I see Brienne (i.e. she's adopted knighthood as a space for self-expression because she doesn't feel like she fits anywhere else, but disguise / changing gender isn't necessary for her, either because she doesn't want to or she doesn't need to, as knighthood's not as closed as the Citadel or Night's Watch). And I like that it's kind of grey that way.