The Spoony Bard Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 All of Westeros has a total of five cities, so it's not like Southrons "know what the hell to do with an actual city" since they don't have that many themselves and none are as impressive as the cities in Essos. Plus, the city existed before the Manderlys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Do they have enough food? To eke by, but not to thrive.They have had 8000 years since the Long Night to prepare for their worst fear, the Others. In that 8000 years they have complacently watched the Wall's efficacy dwindle as they continually struggle with resource and manpower shortages. They have had 8000 year to solve these problems, yet nothing has been done.It's not like the Wall has been a failing order for 8,000 years. It started to decline and fail during the Targ dynasty. The Wall isn't a Northern specific responsibility, though the North does bear a significant burden. It's the responsibility of the entire realm. For nearly 300 years, the entire realm failed to recognize the problems the watch was facing. It's not like they don't have options: winter aside, the North is full of useful resources: whales, fish, furs, timber, minerals. Why are they not trading heavily with the free cities, even if they had no interest in starting industries of their own? The southern plains could be farmed more effectively (see Canada and Russia) - Winter is used as an excuse for the lack of Northern ambition, but it was shown that not even White Harbor freezes over. That's a lot of land that either isn't affected heavily by winter, or is mild enough that the Manderlys (again - Southrons) seem to thrive.The point is, Northern culture has appeared to have stagnated for generations, and this has hindered them in their primary mission: to protect against an Other invasion.I think there's this misconception that people always want to follow a certain path to wealth and riches. The North has suffered raids and attacks from other kingdoms (the Vale and the Iron Islands), but these were small scale. The weather and geography assist in keeping invaders out, but what helps more is that they don't really have anything anyone wants. Once they start building up industry and wealth, they become a lot more enviable and outsiders are more likely to attack. I prefer to fight with one of my sisters rather than some random girl on the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Actually, pirates first used White Harbor. Then a Stark built a castle. But it was the Manderlys who actually turned it into one of the largest settlements in Westeros. After all, why did the Starks give them White Harbor instead of some other land? Perhaps because only Southrons know what the hell do do with an actual city, and other Northern houses lacked the inclination or ability to improve it.Where the hell is this coming from? Last time I checked, not counting King's Landing, there were only four cities in Westeros: Lannisport, Gulltown, White Harbor and Oldtown. The Riverlands, the Iron Islands, the Stormlands and Dorne have no cities, and the Reach, Vale and Westerlands have, gee, the same number as the North, which is to say, one. And this is evidence that southerners "know what the hell to do with an actual city"? It's not like the south is crawling with mega metropolises.ETA: And your assertion that pirates first used White Harbor is patently incorrect, as was discussed earlier. Shit on the North all you like, but get your facts straight, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 It's something called expensive transportation and limited customers. The North is huge, neither railways nor container ships are yet developed, so transporting furs from Last Hearth to Kings Landing or Tyrosh costs a fortune or two. And who could afford to spend a fortune on some furs? The odd noble or rich merchant.It's the same for every product and every region. In a pre-industrial society only luxuries (Arbor wine as another example, or spices) could be transported very far. Most of the trade happens in a very small area.But honestly, we don't know shit about Westerosi technological and economical development.apart from the fact that the Starks started in the bronze age and led the North into the early rennaissance with glass gardens et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodymime Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 It's not like the Wall has been a failing order for 8,000 years. It started to decline and fail during the Targ dynasty. The Wall isn't a Northern specific responsibility, though the North does bear a significant burden. It's the responsibility of the entire realm. For nearly 300 years, the entire realm failed to recognize the problems the watch was facing.This is something that I've been thinking about lately but it seems in some ways the Wall was more a southron thing than northern other than the Starks. One of the things seeming strange to me lately is the way the Old Bear talks when they are getting ready to take their vows. It sounds like men taking their vows in the sept is much more common than going out to the weirwood grove. Other things as well though it's countered by the Halfhand not expecting anything from the south instead saying they can only count on the Starks. Though that can tie into your point about it all starting to fall apart under the Targs and continuing with Robert's rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseHB Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Rickon Stark and Shaggydog will cement the Stark legacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I know it is pretty much taken for granted that the Stark's have ruled the North well.But seriously. Has anyone ever stopped to objectively wonder if Stark rule has been such a terrific thing for the North? I mean, apart from the Wall and Winterfell, they haven't really done a whole hell of a lot in a few thousand years.As others took care of the issue of cities, I'll say... apart from the Wall? Seriously? And where, pray, would you find another such impressive structure on the entire continent? Seven hundred feet tall, three hundred miles long. Compared to it, the formidable Storm's End looks like a miniature. Yes, apart from the Wall, the Starks haven't built that much (well, save from Winterfell, Wolf's Den, White Harbor and whatnot), just like Lannisters, if you exclude all their gold, are actually pretty poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 It's not like the Wall has been a failing order for 8,000 years. It started to decline and fail during the Targ dynasty. The Wall isn't a Northern specific responsibility, though the North does bear a significant burden. It's the responsibility of the entire realm. For nearly 300 years, the entire realm failed to recognize the problems the watch was facing.I'm not sure I understand. There wasn't such a thing as "the entire realm" before the Targaryens. The North was "the entire realm", everything south of the Neck were foreign lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodymime Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 We were comparing Westeros to north america the other day and how that would make the north Canada and even now Canada doesn't have all that many cities. The farther north you go the smaller the settlements. They just aren't going to produce food the way a southern climate is going to and with their level of technology they're not going to be shipping in produce over thousands of miles other than as a delicacy so you are going to have the smaller scattered settlements as has likely already been pointed out in the topic.Anyone from Alaska? I remember reading how a lot of fresh produce can cost a lot more than the average as so much has to be shipped in. The only reason most modern extreme north settlements get large is a result of things that just aren't applicable in Westeros, furs and lumber aren't exactly gold or diamonds, oil and natural gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanmore Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 We were comparing Westeros to north america the other day and how that would make the north Canada and even now Canada doesn't have all that many cities. The farther north you go the smaller the settlements. They just aren't going to produce food the way a southern climate is going to and with their level of technology they're not going to be shipping in produce over thousands of miles other than as a delicacy so you are going to have the smaller scattered settlements as has likely already been pointed out in the topic.Anyone from Alaska? I remember reading how a lot of fresh produce can cost a lot more than the average as so much has to be shipped in. The only reason most modern extreme north settlements get large is a result of things that just aren't applicable in Westeros, furs and lumber aren't exactly gold or diamonds, oil and natural gas.I don't know, wasn't Canada settled by the French and the English precicely because of the fur trade? Furs were big money back in the day. Before man made fabrics, fur was pretty valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodymime Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I don't know, wasn't Canada settled by the French and the English precicely because of the fur trade? Furs were big money back in the day. Before man made fabrics, fur was pretty valuable.And Canada grew in a similar rate. Like I said, even now in modern times it isn't all that settled and the few large cities are in the south with places like Edmonton growing only because of oil.Populations according to wikiCanada Population - 2012 estimate 34,848,000 US Population - 2012 estimate 313,857,000 And even then a large proportion of Canada's population is along their southern border.In fact here's a pretty nice visual comparison.North Americahttp://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/94116main_usa_nightm.jpgWesteroshttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6127/5937718041_6a69c09c84_o.jpgFairly similar you'd have to say. The farther north you go the more scattered the settlements become in any culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Actually, wasn't it the Greystarks (offshoot branch of the Starks)? When the Greystarks were rooted out after rebelling (allying with the Boltons) White Harbor was granted to the Manderlys. I just re-read DANCE and should remember it better but I don't.nope, twas Jon Stark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 this thread is chock full of fail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I don't know, wasn't Canada settled by the French and the English precicely because of the fur trade? Furs were big money back in the day. Before man made fabrics, fur was pretty valuable.And apart from southern cities, Canada isn't that populous. In fact, to the north, much of it is sparsely settled wilderness. Meaning, having the fur trade wasn't enough to turn Canada into a booming population center (and it wasn't settled until well after the Renaissance, whereas Westeros is still roughly in the Middle Ages), so why expect fur trade to do that with the North? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onion Ring Knight Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 nope, twas Jon StarkYep, you're now the fifth person to correct my (admittedly faulty) memory, despite my recent re-read. So thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Yep, you're now the fifth person to correct my (admittedly faulty) memory, despite my recent re-read. So thanks for that.i saw that right after I posted, not to pile on needlessly or anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Let's be realistic for a second. The way the winters in the North are described (extremely severe and lasting for years), it's a miracle there's any kind of human civilization there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden&Crimson Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 The Stark legacy is a memory, between the majority of the northerners, of better days.Of days with a fair and good Lord Paramount, that besides all his faults, tried hard to do what was best to the North.This memory, that is linked with a deep respect and personal love for the Starks, will be the thing that will help the North to rebuild and vanquish unwhorty bannermen that used evil ways to overthrown their liege lords.I think we cannot analize the legacy of the Stark in mere numbers: castles, towns, comerce, agriculture, etc., we should also evaluate the legacy of the Starks this way: people (in general) like them so much, that despite the House is almost destroyed, they are willing to sacrifice life and limb to restore their paramount lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Let's be realistic for a second. The way the winters in the North are described (extremely severe and lasting for years), it's a miracle there's any kind of human civilization there.Yes. So the people who do make it up there must be pretty tough cookies, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodymime Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 It's hard to even take the Kingsroad that seriously. Maybe the Targs connected a few roads decided it would originate from KL and gave it all a name but they didn't exactly come to Westeros and teach people how to make fire and what the wheel was for. They would have already had roads taking them where they needed to go. The Targs with all their high technology didn't do jack for the most part but sit around screwing their siblings, having delusions of being fire made flesh and going to war. Not much different than anyone else in Westeros once you take away the siblings and being fire made flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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