Beauty Means Health, or Why it's Okay to say "No" to Tyrion

[Every]

Yes, Tyrion's always been flawed in ways that aren't physical. No argument there. He has a bad turn after his trial. However, bearing false witness against a man on trial for murder who faces execution if he's found guilty is to be complicit in killing him and he'd spent two novels protecting her. Shae didn't owe him her love, either, but what she did at his trial isn't defensible. I have no problem with the argument that it was the equivalent of trying to have him murdered.

What Shae did at his trial is indefensible, but murdering her in vengeance is no better than murdering her for any other reason.

And sure, the rape fantasy is bad, but you could also argue (if you want to keep up this idea of "equivalence") that what he did to the woman at Illyrio's manse was actual rape.

Is this somehow meant to make it better?

[Every]

Yes, he is. But most of his psychological flaws are born from his physical ones and the way he has been treated because of them; Also the unfortunate circumstances of his birth.

I mean, when the only female relative you interact with growing up is the sister that used to twist your baby penis when she was upset with something she read in a book, you can be damn sure you aren't going to have healthy ideas about women.

No one's saying there aren't reasons why Tyrion has turned into the person he has. The fact that there are reasons for his issues surrounding sex, violence and women in general, however, does not make those issues any less concerning for women who might get involved with him.

[A...]

No one's saying there aren't reasons why Tyrion has turned into the person he has. The fact that there are reasons for his issues surrounding sex, violence and women in general, however, does not make those issues any less concerning for women who might get involved with him.

I agree with this. Also disturbing seems to be the fact that his whole 'romantic' life seems to be spent in search of a replacement for Tysha, who he has never been able to 'get over' due to Tywin's misguidedly cruel ideas about parenting. As for Tysha herself, she somehow managed to plant the idea in him that sex is a suitable reward for protection, which he seems to somehow transfer onto Sansa when they marry. (Note: this seems to be a kind of general theme in Westeros, since the whole exchanging of cloaks is supposed to symbolise protection.) Also, Tyrion does think to protect Sansa from Joffrey's cruelty and expects her to be 'glad' somehow that it is him she is marrying and not Joff, and consequently believes he deserves sex for that. Thus whole idea of 'protection', where the person doing the protecting is supposed to be somebody the victim feels safe with and trusts implicitly is undermined and poisoned by the idea of owing them 'payment' for their protection in a form which endangers the victim's emotional safety. And so the sick circle escalates.

[Sevumar]

Men pursuing beautiful women, good; women pursuing beautiful men, bad. Poopie. Women who like a pretty face are just doing what comes naturally. An explanation, and I apologize for this long-ass post:

People don't live their lives solely on the say-so of biological impulses, in fact, many of the things we do routinely are done in contravention of our natural impulses. Some people choose to live celibate lives as members of religious orders, neither pursuing members of the opposite sex nor having sex if they are serious about keeping their vows. There is evidence that men and women may be naturally inclined to promiscuity, yet there are a substantial number of marriages where partners have not strayed. Society cannot work without impulse control.

Every person has a right to reject a prospective partner that he or she does not desire, but this is a relatively recent development in our society. For much of human history, both men and women were not free to choose their partners, although men often enjoyed a greater degree of sexual freedom than women.

Scientists who study the science of attraction have determined that symmetry equals health equals beauty. Choosing an attractive mate yields an evolutionary advantage.

Most people in the world are not considered especially attractive and a great many are not healthy, yet many of these people have partners or spouses. They managed to find people who loved them in spite of the "biological" arguments against reproductive/romantic success. These numbers include people with all kinds of physical and mental disabilities.

This isn't to say that people who have advantages in the looks and height departments aren't more successful in a number of ways, but the rest of humanity generally manages to find a way to survive, love, and reproduce in spite of all of this.

Women who reject Tyrion in favor of a pretty face are not fools or shallow, as Tyrion, Ser Garland* and many posters think. Their preference for handsome will not disappear as they mature (although they might become resigned to ugly, or resort to asoiaf's cures for unhappy wives -- adultery and murder).

As readers, we frequently apply modern modes of thought and morality to Martin's world and to his characters. Many of us probably remember that from the time we were children, we've been taught not to judge people by looks alone, but to get to know them and value them for their abilities and their personalities as well as their appearance. That doesn't stop us from judging people by appearance; it happens all the time, but we have also grown to appreciate other parts of people. By our own standards, it is shallow to dismiss someone solely for a physical disability or appearance.

Again, that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to love Tyrion or to sleep with him, but it does mean that shallowness is valid grounds for criticism of characters in this world.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

What Shae did at his trial is indefensible, but murdering her in vengeance is no better than murdering her for any other reason.

Why not? How many vengeful murders in the series have been crowd-pleasing moments? I'm not saying it isn't problematic. I'm not saying it was righteous. I'm not saying Shae's testimony was what condemned him, but she did what she did. What was your reaction when Littlefinger killed Lysa? What would be your reaction if Sansa killed Littlefinger?

I don't think we're ever going to find out what caused Shae to testify but it's important to remember that show Shae isn't book Shae. Book Shae was made to look avaricious and played the bubblehead with Tyrion (if she wasn't actually that simple minded). The telling gesture is using the "giant" nickname and changing its origin. There was no need for that. How to interpret it as anything other than a middle finger at Tyrion as he was on his way to death?

Is this somehow meant to make it better?

No, it was actually meant to make it look worse. Many people have ugly thoughts. I wouldn't expect Tyrion to ever follow through on raping Cersei, but he did what he did with that woman.

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

I don't think anyone ever couldn't say 'no' to Tyrion. Whence comes this idea that one cannot say no to him?

[Lady Lea]

I wouldn't expect Tyrion to ever follow through on raping Cersei, but he did what he did with that woman.

I would. I even think he'd follow through on his threats to Tommen, who's a good kid and has always been nice to Tyrion. Tyrion says he'd look weak if he didn't and that he was relieved Cersei snatched the boy away.

Ps. I love your Monty Python references!

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

As for Tysha herself, she somehow managed to plant the idea in him that sex is a suitable reward for protection, which he seems to somehow transfer onto Sansa when they marry. (Note: this seems to be a kind of general theme in Westeros, since the whole exchanging of cloaks is supposed to symbolise protection.) Also, Tyrion does think to protect Sansa from Joffrey's cruelty and expects her to be 'glad' somehow that it is him she is marrying and not Joff, and consequently believes he deserves sex for that.

It's an interesting point, but to be completely fair to The Imp he's the one who decides that he and Sansa aren't going to have sex. He had the option and decided not to because it would've been against her will. No, I'm not saying we should be impressed by a basic level of decency (although in Westeros it is fairly impressive), but it is interesting that the next time he has that option (where a woman clearly doesn't want to have sex with him but isn't going to put up a fight) he goes through with it anyway, and that time it's a supposed "whore." Tyrion and whores, again.

[Sevumar]

No, I'm not saying we should be impressed by a basic level of decency (although in Westeros it is fairly impressive), but it is interesting that the next time he has that option (where a woman clearly doesn't want to have sex with him but isn't going to put up a fight) he goes through with it anyway, and that time it's a supposed "whore." Tyrion and whores, again.

Actually, I think it is something that deserves a fair amount of credit. All the pressure and power was on Tyrion's side, but he defied custom and the demands of his father in deciding not to consummate the marriage. The age of his bride was a bit on the young side for everyone in Westeros to be entirely comfortable with it, but few people other than the Starks and their allies would've protested if Tyrion had slept with her. It cost Tyrion tremendously to make this decision and stick to it, so it is an act worthy of recognition.

The rest of Tyrion's behavior toward women is often callous and abusive, but he was neither of these things to Sansa. It seems like he honestly did his best to protect her and keep her from harm.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

I would. I even think he'd follow through on his threats to Tommen, who's a good kid and has always been nice to Tyrion. Tyrion says he'd look weak if he didn't and that he was relieved Cersei snatched the boy away.

I don't know. After his escape Tyrion's obviously lost morally and there's always been a disturbing sexual element to his thoughts about his sister (while in Jaime's case I guess it .. isn't disturbing because they have pretty kids … ?), but if nothing else Tyrion is a favorite of the author and I can't see that happening. Could it happen, with how the character has been portrayed, with his history? It's a decent question.

[brashcandy]

That doesn't stop us from judging people by appearance; it happens all the time, but we have also grown to appreciate other parts of people. By our own standards, it is shallow to dismiss someone solely for a physical disability or appearance.

Again, that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to love Tyrion or to sleep with him, but it does mean that shallowness is valid grounds for criticism of characters in this world.

I understand the point you're making Sevumar, but I think it needs to be stressed that a person should be under no obligation to find another person attractive or desirable, and if that assessment is solely based on looks I don't see why we should consider it to be shallow. Treating another person differently in terms of everyday interactions because of a disability or their appearance is what would be wrong, but being honest with yourself about your lack of attraction towards said person isn't. Sansa tries to find Tyrion's beauty and she cannot. It doesn't mean another woman wouldn't, just that Sansa is unable to and shouldn't feel as though she has to.

[A...]

It's an interesting point, but to be completely fair to The Imp he's the one who decides that he and Sansa aren't going to have sex. He had the option and decided not to because it would've been against her will. No, I'm not saying we should be impressed by a basic level of decency (although in Westeros it is fairly impressive), but it is interesting that the next time he has that option (where a woman clearly doesn't want to have sex with him but isn't going to put up a fight) he goes through with it anyway, and that time it's a supposed "whore." Tyrion and whores, again.

Yes, he did not force Sansa on the marriage bed as was his right as a Westerosi husband - BUT in doing so he seems to cast himself as the protector again only this time it is himself and his own lust he is protecting her against and he feels he is doing the noble thing denying himself and tells Sansa something down the lines of 'We can have sex when you're ready' to which she says 'What if I'm never ready?' (or the like) at which point he is dismayed because, as I see it, he expects her gratitude for his abstinence on the wedding night will lead her at some point to love him (and have sex with him). Which is a natural desire on his part - just not an entirely fair expectation considering.

[Every]

Why not? How many vengeful murders in the series have been crowd-pleasing moments? I'm not saying it isn't problematic. I'm not saying it was righteous. I'm not saying Shae's testimony was what condemned him, but she did what she did. What was your reaction when Littlefinger killed Lysa? What would be your reaction if Sansa killed Littlefinger?

I wasn't applauding LF for killing Lysa, and I wouldn't applaud Sansa for killing LF (I suspect it may be coming, but I think it will be a death of innocence for Sansa as much as anything) but even if I did, that wouldn't make those deaths justified. Just because something is satisfying on a base level doesn't make it acceptable on a moral one.

I don't think we're ever going to find out what caused Shae to testify but it's important to remember that show Shae isn't book Shae. Book Shae was made to look avaricious and played the bubblehead with Tyrion (if she wasn't actually that simple minded). The telling gesture is using the "giant" nickname and changing its origin. There was no need for that. How to interpret it as anything other than a middle finger at Tyrion as he was on his way to death?

I know show Shae isn't book Shae, and I think the show's interpretation of her character is much less interesting and developed than her character in the books. But so what if it was a middle finger to him? Does a cruel comment justify strangling someone?

[brashcandy]

It cost Tyrion tremendously to make this decision and stick to it, so it is an act worthy of recognition.

What did it cost Tyrion exactly? Some horny nights? A few harsh remarks from his father? I'm struggling here...

The rest of Tyrion's behavior toward women is often callous and abusive, but he was neither of these things to Sansa. It seems like he honestly did his best to protect her and keep her from harm.

Subjecting Sansa to a forced marriage is what I would consider to be abusive and callous. He may not have personally molested her, but he had a direct hand in exploiting her for her claim. These actions cannot be swept under the carpet simply because Tyrion endeavours to be "nice."

[Every]

I don't know. After his escape Tyrion's obviously lost morally and there's always been a disturbing sexual element to his thoughts about his sister (while in Jaime's case I guess it .. isn't disturbing because they have pretty kids … ?)

It isn't (as) disturbing because Jaime doesn't want to murder her afterwards.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Bizarre thread.

[Jolene Brown]

It isn't (as) disturbing because Jaime doesn't want to murder her afterwards.

And it's consensual!

[Sevumar]

I understand the point you're making Sevumar, but I think it needs to be stressed that a person should be under no obligation to find another person attractive or desirable, and if that assessment is solely based on looks I don't see why we should consider it to be shallow.

I think we both agree that nobody is required to find another person attractive. But frequently in the books, looks are used as an excuse to dismiss someone without having to consider their other attributes. Shallowness comes into play when a decision is made on looks alone or when assumptions are made based on a person's looks, and often outside the realm of love.

Sansa tries to find Tyrion's beauty and she cannot. It doesn't mean another woman wouldn't, just that Sansa is unable to and shouldn't feel as though she has to.

I don't think she should feel required to "find" Tyrion's beauty, but he clearly has attributes than can be appreciated.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

I wasn't applauding LF for killing Lysa, and I wouldn't applaud Sansa for killing LF (I suspect it may be coming, but I think it will be a death of innocence for Sansa as much as anything) but even if I did, that wouldn't make those deaths justified. Just because something is satisfying on a base level doesn't make it acceptable on a moral one.

I'm inclined to agree, but there's still an argument to be made. If Stannis were her judge and Shae was shown to have done what she did to Tyrion (or anyone), her punishment would be death, wouldn't it? There are absolutes either way.

But so what if it was a middle finger to him? Does a cruel comment justify strangling someone?

I think it's evidence, however small, that she wasn't coerced. That was a detail she added, and no explanation for including it makes her look good.

Yes, he did not force Sansa on the marriage bed as was his right as a Westerosi husband - BUT in doing so he seems to cast himself as the protector again only this time it is himself and his own lust he is protecting her against and he feels he is doing the noble thing denying himself and tells Sansa something down the lines of 'We can have sex when you're ready' to which she says 'What if I'm never ready?' (or the like) at which point he is dismayed because, as I see it, he expects her gratitude for his abstinence on the wedding night will lead her at some point to love him (and have sex with him). Which is a natural desire on his part - just not an entirely fair expectation considering.

All valid points. Tyrion's head is admittedly a psychosexual mess.

[Sevumar]

What did it cost Tyrion exactly? Some horny nights? A few harsh remarks from his father? I'm struggling here...

It's basically the seal on his father's threat to take away Tyrion's chance of winning approval or legitimacy from his family. Tywin has treated Tyrion as worse than useless throughout the entire course of the story to that point, despite Tyrion's results (positive if you're a Lannister loyalist) as Hand and his key role in holding King's Landing for his sister's bastard. He's put up with sexual abuse and humiliation at the hands of his family members for his entire life, so it makes sense that someone as desperate to win his father's approval would leap at the chance to gain a holding and a recognized position in Westerosi politics through this marriage. Instead, he throws away the chance by refusing to consummate the sham marriage.

Subjecting Sansa to a forced marriage is what I would consider to be abusive and callous. He may not have personally molested her, but he had a direct hand in exploiting her for her claim. These actions cannot be swept under the carpet simply because Tyrion endeavours to be "nice."

I don't see that Tyrion really had much of a choice here. I don't see his reluctant participation in the marriage, in name only, as a big transgression.