Beauty Means Health, or Why it's Okay to say "No" to Tyrion

[Garlan Marius]

Eh? There was a clear verbal threat in Sansa's case:

I don't see any "knives at throats" there. ;)

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I can't believe I got suckered into another one of these threads. You can see these discussions coming a mile away, and I've had these same arguments with the same people, and yet we just can't help ourselves. Good night folks :cheers:

[danm_999]

I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He’s a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall.

And people say Cersei isn't a caring individual! :P

[Winter's Knight]

I didn't get this sense, because Lollys was the only alternative floated, and I think it was obvious this was a ploy by Tywin that failed to hit the mark.

And as I said, if Tyrion was completely motivated by self interest, he'd never have made the offer to Sansa that if she wanted, she could marry Lancel instead.

An offer made ten minutes before the wedding and more as a salve to his own conscience than anything else.

[Ser_Patreck]

You might have missed a bit, but Sansa has had a crossbow pointed at her, been beaten, and threatened with rape and bodily harm by Joffrey, the King. Joffrey also tells her he will make her marry anyone he wants as he's preparing to 'walk her down the aisle'. The threat of bodily harm is clearly present.

You may have missed it, but Tyrion, by that point, had been the target of an assassination attempt, repeated humiliation and threatening by Joffrey and his dog, sexual abuse by his father, emotional abuse by his father and sister...

[danm_999]

An offer made ten minutes before the wedding and more as a salve to his own conscience than anything else.

Perhaps, but the presence of a conscience suggests he's not completely self involved. Not to mention his first suggestion of what to do with Sansa to his father was to send her back to Robb.

[mormont]

There is no context that says it is frowned upon or extremely rare. Thus, "not uncommon" is an apt descriptor.

I'm not sure I can agree that it's ever 'apt' to use the words 'not uncommon' to refer to something other than how common a thing is. An 'apt descriptor' for something that isn't frowned upon would be, for example, 'not frowned upon'.

Bringing up the term "underage hostage" as a pejorative toward the marriage implies "Sansa is too young to be married," which is directly contradicted by the SSM. Either this is of issue or it is irrelevant and simply an attempt to spin the event in question.

Well, I've already pointed out why this interpretation doesn't stand, so let's just say I think your arguments depend on rather partial interpretations of meaning: or 'spin', if you prefer. ;)

[Winter's Knight]

You may have missed it, but Tyrion, by that point, had been the target of an assassination attempt, repeated humiliation and threatening by Joffrey and his dog, sexual abuse by his father, emotional abuse by his father and sister...

You'll note that Tyrion can walk away at any time he wants? He can return to Casterly Rock or go out East or join the Watch, the Citadel or the Faith, stay with lesser cousins, his uncle Kevan, his aunt Genma, go into trade-there are numerous other options for him apart from his father's money.

[Lyanna Stark]

You may have missed it, but Tyrion, by that point, had been the target of an assassination attempt, repeated humiliation and threatening by Joffrey and his dog, sexual abuse by his father, emotional abuse by his father and sister...

An assassination attempt that he thinks was due to Cersei, but wasn't.

How is he "repeatedly humiliated and threatened by Joffrey and his dog"? In ACOK Tyrion is Hand, he is the one to threaten Joffrey. In ASOS the Hound is gone from Kings Landing, so he can't to anything. Joffrey is also still a minor so cannot have him beheaded. Cersei will clearly not.

As for the "emotional abuse" does that make it right to marry Sansa? How does that "correct" the emotional abuse Tyrion has been the victim of? How does it justify him agreeing to a forced marriage to a 13 year old hostage who doesn't want him?

[David Selig]

Here we go again...

Can we get back on topic, please? The reasons why Tyrion married Sansa and how much choice he had is such a beaten to death discussion...

[Ser_Patreck]

Eh? There was a clear verbal threat in Sansa's case:

No knife to her throat, no talk about dead or flogging if she refused... I mean, from what I understand of some post here, you need those things if a threat is to be a threat.

[Lyanna Stark]

No knife to her throat, no talk about dead or flogging if she refused... I mean, from what I understand of some post here, you need those things if a threat is to be a threat.

Have you even read Sansa's chapters? Did you read the excerpts posted? Cersei doesn't care how Sansa gets to the altar. She is ok with Trant and Kettleblacak doing anything to her since it didn't matter. She would be married anyway.

Which bit of "being forced" here is hard to grasp?`How could Sansa say no? Cersei made absolutely clear that nothing Sansa could do or say would prevent the marriage. Nothing. Ever.

[Mulled Wino]

"Underage" is relative, and she wasn't underage by Westerosi standards. One must also keep in mind that Tyrion was forced into the farce of a marriage, as well. Heaven forbid that someone want some good to come of a situation.

Wrong wrong wrong. Her father was beheaded by his family and she had been held as prisoner. She was made to suffer abuse and moclery at Cersei's hands., tyrion has no right to expect anything, he can try, but to believe sansa should, would, or could EVER get into this relationship is folly.

[Winter's Knight]

No knife to her throat, no talk about dead or flogging if she refused... I mean, from what I understand of some post here, you need those things if a threat is to be a threat.

Eesh, you people:

“You can’t make me.”

“Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.”

Would you like Cersei to twirl her moustache and tie Sansa to a railway track?

[Mulled Wino]

You may have missed it, but Tyrion, by that point, had been the target of an assassination attempt, repeated humiliation and threatening by Joffrey and his dog, sexual abuse by his father, emotional abuse by his father and sister...

So??????????

[Garlan Marius]

I'm not sure I can agree that it's ever 'apt' to use the words 'not uncommon' to refer to something other than how common a thing is. An 'apt descriptor' for something that isn't frowned upon would be, for example, 'not frowned upon'.

Thank you for the douchebaggery English lesson, but if this practice were particularly uncommon in Westeros, there would be a negative connotation to the act itself. Yes, correlation versus causation, but there would be whispers behind backs about "boy, she's too young for marriage" which we don't see. It is reasonable to assume that highborn ladies are married after their first flowering but before the age of majority on a relatively common scale. Not a majority or plurality of cases, perhaps, but enough that it isn't seen as perverted.

Well, I've already pointed out why this interpretation doesn't stand, so let's just say I think your arguments depend on rather partial interpretations of meaning: or 'spin', if you prefer. ;)

Sansa being under the age of majority is irrelevant in regards to the marriage between her and Tyrion. Bringing it up implies that one thinks it does. That isn't a difficult connection to make.

[Garlan Marius]

Wrong wrong wrong. Her father was beheaded by his family and she had been held as prisoner. She was made to suffer abuse and moclery at Cersei's hands., tyrion has no right to expect anything, he can try, but to believe sansa should, would, or could EVER get into this relationship is folly.

I'd like to see where I said he should expect anything. He can hope as much as he wants. That isn't a crime, and certainly isn't "wrong wrong wrong."

[BastardBorn]

As for the "emotional abuse" does that make it right to marry Sansa? How does that "correct" the emotional abuse Tyrion has been the victim of? How does it justify him agreeing to a forced marriage to a 13 year old hostage who doesn't want him?

I agree Tyrion had much more choice in the matter than Sansa. It is a bit of a high standard to hold someone to though. Marriage was rarely done for love amongst nobles. This was Tyrion's only plausible shot at becoming a great lord, which is what he always wanted.

Wrong wrong wrong. Her father was beheaded by his family and she had been held as prisoner. She was made to suffer abuse and moclery at Cersei's hands., tyrion has no right to expect anything, he can try, but to believe sansa should, would, or could EVER get into this relationship is folly.

He acknowledged as much himself. His feelings could not be helped. He never really voiced them. to her.

[Dr. Pepper]

You may have missed it, but Tyrion, by that point, had been the target of an assassination attempt, repeated humiliation and threatening by Joffrey and his dog, sexual abuse by his father, emotional abuse by his father and sister...

Others have already pointed out your inaccurate interpretation here. I'll quote them below to make sure you read them.

You'll note that Tyrion can walk away at any time he wants? He can return to Casterly Rock or go out East or join the Watch, the Citadel or the Faith, stay with lesser cousins, his uncle Kevan, his aunt Genma, go into trade-there are numerous other options for him apart from his father's money.

An assassination attempt that he thinks was due to Cersei, but wasn't.

How is he "repeatedly humiliated and threatened by Joffrey and his dog"? In ACOK Tyrion is Hand, he is the one to threaten Joffrey. In ASOS the Hound is gone from Kings Landing, so he can't to anything. Joffrey is also still a minor so cannot have him beheaded. Cersei will clearly not.

As for the "emotional abuse" does that make it right to marry Sansa? How does that "correct" the emotional abuse Tyrion has been the victim of? How does it justify him agreeing to a forced marriage to a 13 year old hostage who doesn't want him?

It's a shame that we can't have any meaningful discussions about Tyrion's and Sansa's character developments during the wedding because there are still some who have this savage notion that women should just be pleased with their husbands, even if she is forced and threatened with bodily harm, even if she despises him, etc.

[Aleenys]

I'd like to see where I said he should expect anything. He can hope as much as he wants. That isn't a crime, and certainly isn't "wrong wrong wrong."

It IS wrong. What kind of seriously mentally fucked up person would expect a frightened 12 year old girl who's forced into marriage to love him, bed him and accept him as a husband? If he had any sense he would have seen how much suffering he was causing her. Seriously, every time he pondered about wanting to run away with her, kiss her or bed her I was repulsed. I understand his need to be loved, but seriously? Expecting that from someone like Sansa? No.