Has Martin ever remarked about Dany?

[Wouter]

You guys make it sound so simple for her to just conquer a continent and walk away. We're five books in and still have no ruler of Westeros, yet she has an entire continent that JUST declared war and she's supposed to bang it out and be done with it in the course of a few chapters?

As said, Westeros is the point of the books. Essos is just a stepping stone on the way, for the characters passing there.

Dany is not at war with an entire continent, but the following groups and cities can expect her wrath in TWOW: Dothraki, Yunkai, the harpies, Volantis and maybe Pentos. She can do that all in one book unless Martin plans to write at least 8 or 9 books.

[total1402]

Failing that, there are a thousand better ways to handle the conflicts than what she has done.

Such as?

[Garlan Marius]

Dany is not at war with an entire continent, but the following groups and cities can expect her wrath in TWOW: Dothraki, Yunkai, the harpies, Volantis and maybe Pentos.

Don't forget Qarth. Or assume that attacking Pentos will not make the rest of the Free Cities take a second look at her.

[brashcandy]

Really?

She forces her soldiers to go out into the camps with her. They don't have to, but they'd be cowards in her eyes. The plague starts spreading. The water outside becomes contaminated, conveniently killing thousands of her enemies as well.

Nonsense.

She has no control over the dragons that are now living on top of the temples. Did you miss that chapter? They're just up there chillin' and killin' folks while she has a sabbatical. If she had bothered training them, she wouldn't have needed to lock them up in the first place.

The dragons haven't eaten anyone. They've been feeding them livestock. Secondly, Dany doesn't have experience in dragon training, she's been learning on the job. Doesn't make her a bad mother or a careless ruler.

And yes, she plans on abandoning these people even though she calls herself their mother and queen. In her eyes the millions of slaves she wants to liberate, aren't nearly as important as conquering a land that already has too many kings and she has never even seen.

Oh honestly, just stop. You're blatantly making things up. Dany has delayed and delayed her journey to Westeros because of her duty and love for her people. She could have deserted them in ADWD when the option was given to take ships and leave. She didn't.

[Garlan Marius]

Nonsense.

The dragons haven't eaten anyone. They've been feeding them livestock. Secondly, Dany doesn't have experience in dragon training, she's been learning on the job. Doesn't make her a bad mother or a careless ruler.

Oh honestly, just stop. You're blatantly making things up. Dany has delayed and delayed her journey to Westeros because of her duty and love for her people. She could have deserted them in ADWD when the option was given to take ships and leave. She didn't.

Did you read A Dance With Dragons?

[Sevumar]

Are you saying Dany should have realised this would happen? Even Jorah didn't suggest the whole continent would go to war with her. Because I realise that they're acting like a swarm of ants defending the hive from an attacker.

The events of Storm very clearly lay out each of the things Dany does to give the cities of Slaver's Bay reasons for their grievances against her. Jorah's advice before she committed to the attack on Meereen was to, "save her swords and spears for Westeros." He seemed to have some idea that she was going to get herself bogged down in a fight that had nothing to do with what her goal had always been until that moment, and that her actions would win her many enemies.

Dany's enemies are not acting like ants, but like the leaders of societies attempting to protect themselves from a foreign invader. You may not like them or their actions, but it makes no sense to suggest someone loses the right to defend himself from an aggressor because his society does not meet with your approval. Nobody is obliged to bend over and accept conquest by a foreigner who has decided that she is the ultimate moral arbiter of their society.

Attacking them is a good thing. Pulling the cancer of the slave trade from their societies is a just action. Martin shows this to be difficult and full of endless problems of trying to change society for the better. But most of these have been external in nature and have forced Dany to not do things half-heartedly or partially. If she wants to end slavery; she has to end it everywhere in Essos.

We're not talking about Chaos Space Marines from 40k. Dany's enemies represent societies where large numbers of people are trying to live their lives in the same way that people all over Essos and Westeros are. I understand that slavery is a great evil for those in captivity and those who keep and trade slaves alike. I'm not for the continued existence of slavery in Martin's world, but I don't think that Dany is going about her goals in the right way. Her moral outrage does not give her the right to inflict the amount of damage and suffering that she has in the vicinity of Slaver's Bay.

[brashcandy]

Did you read A Dance With Dragons?

Yes, please point out to me what I said that was incorrect?

[Garlan Marius]

Dany had her Unsullied help her take care of those sick with the Pale Mare. Drogon ate a child. Dany consistently muses about how hopeless the Ghiscari are and wants to find a way to leave.

[brashcandy]

Dany had her Unsullied help her take care of those sick with the Pale Mare. Drogon ate a child. Dany consistently muses about how hopeless the Ghiscari are and wants to find a way to leave.

Ok, clearly you've not been the following the argument I've been having with CGMF. I already said that Drogon ate a child. I was responding to CGMF's claim that the other dragons were sitting atop a pyramid at the end of ADWD eating people. That isn't true. I also know that she got her soldiers to help out with the pale mare victims, but my response of "nonsense" was to the point that she had a hand in causing the plague to spread through her city. And it's patently false to say she wants to find a way to leave. She's had ways to leave offered to her and she's refused them. She wants to find a way to stop the violence and bring prosperity back to Meereen.

[total1402]

In a moral sense she has the right of it. Theres no other way Dany could have helped these people other than by using military force. They haven't been able to help themselves and theres no desire for the Essosi to abolish it. They're in for many millennia of torment if she does nothing.

I'am pretty sure the people in Ancien Regime France or any number of places were just getting on with their lives but decided to use force of arms to free themselves at immense suffering compared to just going with the status quo. The only reason to criticise Dany is because she is an outsider and arguably an Imperialist imposing her views on Essos; they aren't having their own revolution. But, unlike most world examples of this, the people being freed actually genuinely seems to want her to keep doing this and therefore she is excused. Plus, you can't really bring post-colonialism into a book which has thoroughly normalised the medieval setting and arbitrary rule. Ergo Dany is no different imposing her will on Essos than the Kings of Westeros on their realm. Indeed this is precisely what Aegon the Conq did to Westeros. Shes not really a monster for behaving like any monarch in the universe. Shes just demanding something which is not in the interests of the ruling elite or her neighbours. Had she conquered Mereen and not abolished slavery they'd probably be kissing her feet for bringing glory back to Ghiscar.

[Ser_Patreck]

I know. She will crush them all. The Dothraki will kneel before her. Volantis will rise and declare her the messiah. The Yunkai, Ghiscari and Qartheen will be conquered.

Once the above is completed she will have the only army and fleet left in Essos.

Not if she frees every slave in Essos and the majority population takes charge. Without external aid the deposed ruling slaver class can never take power again.

No one woman can do that in an Empire anyway. Most of that is handled at the provisional and district level. Plus shes done a pretty good job considering that Martin gave her possibly the worst city to govern because it had nothing other than the slave trade to its economy. Other cities are easier because they actually trade and she can open them to Mereenese trade this solving the trade embargo placed on Mereen.

Except, this isn't Harry Potter nor Eragon. This is A Sonf of Ice and Fire.

Unless you're being sarcastic. In that case, I agree with you.

[Garlan Marius]

The dragons haven't eaten anyone.

[total1402]

Except, this isn't Harry Potter nor Eragon. This is A Sonf of Ice and Fire.

Unless you're being sarcastic. In that case, I agree with you.

Harry Potter and Eragon didn't kill several million people to get what they want.I think making the dear hero queen act like Genghis Khan to free the slaves is breaking enough fantasy tradition to be ASoIF.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

Ok, clearly you've not been the following the argument I've been having with CGMF. I already said that Drogon ate a child. I was responding to CGMF's claim that the other dragons were sitting atop a pyramid at the end of ADWD eating people. That isn't

through her city. And it's patently false to say she wants to find a way to leave. She's had ways to leave offered to her and she's refused them. She wants to find a way to stop the violence and bring prosperity back to Meereen.

Are you serious? Both of the other dragons are on top of two temples at the end of the book. They're filling the arenas with sheep to entice them not to eat people .

Also, how do we know Drogon wasn't eating people while he was gone? He doesn't care what he eats or if it has a name.

How do you think the Pale mare got in? Her soldiers got infected from being in the camp. She went in as deep as she could handle the smell, now people are dying from it inside the city too. She was the ONLY person in Mereen stupid enough to go wading in there. How delusional do you have to be to think you are impervious to disease? That's our Dany. She could have dropped the supplies off at a safe distance, but she insisted on going deep into the camp, allowing them to touch her which in turn meant her soldiers had to push sick people back. Even the unsullied questioned her on this.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

double post

[Ser_Patreck]

I dont want to sound too smug, but by the end of DwD we can clearly see that Dany is about to become far more assertive and agressive as a leader, the prophecies in the house of the Undying are proof that Dany will have a khalasar very soon and might as well become the "Stallion that will mount the world" or something like that...

Her plot in DwD is a common trope in many fantasy stories. During the middle of his story, the hero loses his identity and start losing his confidence and makes several mistakes, but eventually they find themselves again and come back stronger than before. The only problem with DwD is that her plot was over right after she found herself again, so we didnt get to see the results of her character development, but its easy to predict that she will be very successfull for now on.

So, your point is that she will assert her rule based on three Weapons of Mass Destructions and a culture of rapers and slavers?

Is that what people really want for a hero?

Well when she has thousands of freed slaves joining her, screaming that shes saved them and literally calling her mother the impression is that they very much want her to rule them and are grateful for her doing this. Slaves are the majority of the population and all of them are for Dany. Without her and the Unsullied another Astapor would happen to them. She knows this and stays. Even if her motives were selfish her presence is keeping them alive.

She did NOT sack the cities. Yunkai is a threat because she DIDN'T sack it. She also acted deliberately to STOP Mereen being sacked even to the point of returning confiscated properties. Moving any army in this period requires that they live off the land. Plus most of that army were just hangers on freed slaves she couldn't control. You make her sound like Genghis Khan. Believe me, if she was then she would have killed everyone in all three of those cities and left them a wasteland like the Dothraki. None of which happens, unlike what the slavers do to Astapor.

She banned slavery and hurt the pockets of a tiny and selfish minority. She could not reconcile this elite by paying them off because Martin made a city with literally no alternative source of revenue; plus the other slaver cities have put a trade embargo on Mereen refusing to buy her goods or trade.

No, all of that suffering has been inflicted by the slavers. They are the ones murdering in the streets and tossing plague corpses into the streets. They are the ones who massacred everyone in Astapor. They are the ones who murdered children on the road to Mereen and scorched the earth before the city. They are the ones who are trying to drive Mereen into poverty by refusing trade and blockading it. They are the ones who want to kill every slave and put their cattle back in chains; which is a terrrible fate. Ergo they and not Dany are the cause and must be destroyed in order for the suffering to stop. If she suceeds then she will make a better world for them. If she fails then they're back where they started. But they are overwhelmingly for Dany and want her to save them. Even if what you say is true they want to risk paying the price of failure to be free. That is the Greater Good.

Dany did sack Astapor. Dany did sack Meereen, To deny that is to employ a selective morality that says "Well, it's good if happen to X, bad if it happens to Y". She SACKED those cities.

Dany's motivation to conquer is what she believes is her divine right. The right that comes from being a TARGARYEN. From being the last remnant of VALYRIA. Valyria was built upon the back of slaves. Valyria exiled the Rhoynar, the Andals and the Ghiscari. She wants to take what's hers with Fire and Blood. Valyria did that once, and destroyed Essos. Dany's trying to do this again.

Dany's inflicting suffering. To put all the blame on the "evil slavers" is to say "THE DEVIL MADE HER DO IT", and that's not an affirmation I'd make on a morally grey world.

In what sense are their actions "good". Their behaviour is wholly unsympathetic. Without her interference they would have continued an extremely terrible institution called slavery. TBH Martin portrays them as a wholly unambiguous and monolithic group. Whether from Qarth or Volantis they have essentially the same motive and objective.

She made a council and a few greedy men spat in her face. Not her fault. Considering a lot of people complain about her keeping Mereen you can't really blame her for not keeping Astapor. Her plan wasn't to stay in Slavers Bay and that point and certainly not to carve out an empire in Essos. She let them be independent and the extremely powerful coalition destroyed them. Plus there was no way of saving Astapor. Her enemies were too many, too strong and she was too far away with Yunkai blocking her march. She would have lost Mereen trying to save Astapor which wasn't part of her domain. She was not at fault for the failings of others and the strength of her belligerant enemy.

You speak about slavery, but Dany's "I'm the Blood of the Dragon and I Know Better" doesn't seem that different from the screeches of the Great Masters. Oh, wait. There's a difference. She calls them "servants", not "slaves". And if they disobey, the punishment if fire, not flogging.

Yes, it is her fault. If I set up a council, I'm expected to give this council means to rule. Not "I'm the Blood of the Dragon, you are stupid, so obey these stupids here."

*Do you have any better suggestions about how to rule Mereen?

*If that was his intent then he shouldn't have went out of his way to make such a difficult setting. Such a "point" only makes sense if the characters actions are the biggest problem and not the context being so over-whelmingly impossible to work with. A whole continent at war with you and no way of buying off the local elite. Really, a better trade city might have actually liked the idea of having Dany bring back the glory of old Ghiscar and profit of Danys conquest. Make good where they lost from slavery. Instead Martin closes those doors and really Dany is swept up by events.

No, he shouldn't. The point being made is that one person can't change the world and spit on thousands of years of history just because she has three baby dragons and a big ego. The situation is supposed to be diffult. Ruling is no easy task. She wants to rule Westeros. Would ou call the situation over there "Easy"?

I don't know how you could have read ADWD and come away with you've written above. Chooses to remain at war? She spends the entire book trying to end the war and makes a marriage alliance with Hizdahr to do just that. Helps spread a plague through the city? What, when? She closes the gates so the plague won't infect her city. Let the dragons run amok? Drogon killed one little girl and after that she locked them up (except Drogon who got away). Plans to leave the people? Well she has to at some point, but she hasn't left yet and given her commitment to them she won't just be flying off to leave them to suffer again under slavery and violence.

After making her soldiers and advisors walk through the infected.

[brashcandy]

Are you serious? Both of the other dragons are on top of two temples at the end of the book. They're filling the arenas with sheep to entice them not to eat people .

Do you remember your initial point? Here's what you said:

"She has no control over the dragons that are now living on top of the temples. Did you miss that chapter? They're just up there chillin' and killin' folks while she has a sabbatical."

Unless I've lost my mind, you appear to be claiming that Rhaegal and Viserion are eating people in the pyramids. I pointed out that this was not true and that we learn that they've herded livestock for them to eat. Why not simply admit that you were mistaken instead of this exercise in righteous ignorance?

Also, how do we know Drogon wasn't eating people while he was gone? He doesn't care what he eats or if it has a name.

What Drogo was doing whilst gone is of no consequence to this argument. The fact is that he wasn't eating people in Meereen. He ate one girl, Dany tried to lock him up and he escaped. Everything I have previously stated.

How do you think the Pale mare got in? Her soldiers got infected from being in the camp. She went in as deep as she could handle the smell, now people are dying from it inside the city too. She was the ONLY person in Mereen stupid enough to go wading in there. How delusional do you have to be to think you are impervious to disease? That's our Dany. She could have dropped the supplies off at a safe distance, but she insisted on going deep into the camp, allowing them to touch her which in turn meant her soldiers had to push sick people back. Even the unsullied questioned her on this.

As far as I remember, Dany's soldiers were not responsible for introducing the plague into the city. I await to be corrected with textual evidence if that is not the case.

[Ser_Patreck]

In a moral sense she has the right of it. Theres no other way Dany could have helped these people other than by using military force. They haven't been able to help themselves and theres no desire for the Essosi to abolish it. They're in for many millennia of torment if she does nothing.

I'am pretty sure the people in Ancien Regime France or any number of places were just getting on with their lives but decided to use force of arms to free themselves at immense suffering compared to just going with the status quo. The only reason to criticise Dany is because she is an outsider and arguably an Imperialist imposing her views on Essos; they aren't having their own revolution. But, unlike most world examples of this, the people being freed actually genuinely seems to want her to keep doing this and therefore she is excused. Plus, you can't really bring post-colonialism into a book which has thoroughly normalised the medieval setting and arbitrary rule. Ergo Dany is no different imposing her will on Essos than the Kings of Westeros on their realm. Indeed this is precisely what Aegon the Conq did to Westeros. Shes not really a monster for behaving like any monarch in the universe. Shes just demanding something which is not in the interests of the ruling elite or her neighbours. Had she conquered Mereen and not abolished slavery they'd probably be kissing her feet for bringing glory back to Ghiscar.

Oh, in a moral sense she has the right of it. It's totally OK to use military power for the greate good. So, Bush was completely right in sending the U.S. Army to take out those nasty Taliban in Afghanistan and that cruel Hussein in Iraq?

Since we're at it, are you familiar with the concept of "La Terreur"?

Harry Potter and Eragon didn't kill several million people to get what they want.I think making the dear hero queen act like Genghis Khan to free the slaves is breaking enough fantasy tradition to be ASoIF.

I was talking about your delusions that she would just make her Dragon roar and everything would fall back into place because she's the Messiah.

She isn't. They won't. This is a realistic world.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I have one question, I'm just going to leave it here.

Is Dany compensating her forces and her servants?

[Two Towers]

I have one question, I'm just going to leave it here.

Is Dany compensating her forces and her servants?

Did the Starks?