Has Martin ever remarked about Dany?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Did the Starks?

I gathered that the members of a household in Westeros (no matter the family) are paid and are able to buy things that they need, yes. Whereas Dany's own Dothraki handmaidens slip up and call her other servants slaves.

[E-Ro]

Did the Starks?

LOL what? have you read the books? Slavery has been outlawed in westeros since forever. Obviously they pay the people that work at winterfell.

Lamest.Comeback.Ever.

[Two Towers]

LOL what? have you read the books? Slavery has been outlawed in westeros since forever. Obviously they pay the people that work at winterfell.

Lamest.Comeback.Ever.

Dude relax a bit. Slavery was outlawed in Mereene by Dany. So, according to your logic, I could say that obviously they pay the people that work with Dany

[Ser_Patreck]

Dude relax a bit. Slavery was outlawed in Mereene by Dany. So, according to your logic, I could say that obviously they pay the people that work with Dany

Do us all a favour and re-read Xaro's conversation with Dany. Especially that part when he asks if the people digging her "canals" are voluntary, and her non-answer.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dude relax a bit. Slavery was outlawed in Mereene by Dany. So, according to your logic, I could say that obviously they pay the people that work with Dany

Do they though? Like I said, her handmaidens refer to other servants as slaves — she corrects them, but calling shit a rose doesn't improve the smell. Dany talks about people tending the fields and doing labor, and Xaro asks if they're being compensated. She says yes, they're being paid in food and shelter (but presumably not money). The joke being that slaves are also provided food and shelter, but not money.

[Two Towers]

Do they though? Like I said, her handmaidens refer to other servants as slaves — she corrects them, but calling shit a rose doesn't improve the smell. Dany talks about people tending the fields and doing labor, and Xaro asks if they're being compensated. She says yes, they're being paid in food and shelter (but presumably not money). The joke being that slaves are also provided food and shelter, but not money.

Well her handmaidens are not the brightest people around, and they are use to be around slaves, they were slaves themselves, so is not that hard to understand that they slip once in a while

[E-Ro]

Dude relax a bit. Slavery was outlawed in Mereene by Dany. So, according to your logic, I could say that obviously they pay the people that work with Dany

You could say that, but the fact that the whole economy in that area is based on slavery means that dany would have to be shitting gold to pay anyone, and since in her pov there is no mention of this she isnt. She has no money to pay them, slavery is bad for everyone except her apparently.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Here is the conversation between Dany and Xaro.

Dany: "Slavery is not the same as rain. I have been rained on and I have been sold. It is not the same. No man wants to be owned."

Xaro: "As it happens, when I came ashore in your sweet city, I chanced to see upon the riverbank a man who had once been a guest in my manse, a merchant who dealt in rare spices and choice wines. He was naked from the waist up, red and peeling, and seemed to be digging a hole."

Dany: "Not a hole. A ditch, to bring water from the river to the fields. We need to plant beans. The beanfields must have water."

Xaro: "How kind of my old friend to help with the digging. And how very unlike him. Is it possible he was given no choice in the matter? No, surely not. You have no slaves in Meereen."

Dany: *flushes* "Your friend is being paid with food and shelter. I cannot give him back his wealth. Meereen needs beans more than it needs rare spices, and beans need water."

The conversation goes on, and Xaro says the man begged him to buy him, and Dany says, do it then.

Takeaways:

1. Dany never says whether the man is working voluntarily or not.

2. He is not being financially compensated, only "paid" with food and shelter — slaves are provided that as well. And the fact that Meereen is facing a pretty severe food shortage (except that Dany always has plenty of lamb and figs) suggests that even food may not be forthcoming.

3. Dany doesn't object to Xaro buying the man.

4. She has no problem making inefficient use of labor, i.e. having people do physical labor who are not trained or suited for it.

Well her handmaidens are not the brightest people around, and they are use to be around slaves, they were slaves themselves, so is not that hard to understand that they slip once in a while

That's your answer? That the handmaidens are dumb? Like you said, they were slaves themselves — presumably they know a slave when they see one.

[E-Ro]

TwoTowers: you seem like a reasonable person,can you just admit that the former slaves are still pretty much slaves in all but name.

[total1402]

Oh, in a moral sense she has the right of it. It's totally OK to use military power for the greate good. So, Bush was completely right in sending the U.S. Army to take out those nasty Taliban in Afghanistan and that cruel Hussein in Iraq?

Since we're at it, are you familiar with the concept of "La Terreur"?

I was talking about your delusions that she would just make her Dragon roar and everything would fall back into place because she's the Messiah.

She isn't. They won't. This is a realistic world.

You can't apply anti-Imperialism and post-modernism to a medieval fantasy setting any more than you can expect Westeros to become democratic because thats the only legitimate government and medieval society is evil. Dany in Mereen is not some take on the Iraq war by GRR Martin. Thats an asinine point to make. You can't equate suddenly place modern morality onto what Danys doing because theres an East/West dynamic.

Um, in real life people with power win and conquer Empires. Genghis Khan, Caeser, Alexander, (Aegon the Conqueror in that verse), William the Conqueror, the Allies in WW2 they all very clearly won their conflicts. GRR Martin would actually be being unrealistic he made it impossible for his POV to actually win. Thats being realistic. Just having your characters lose to go against the percieved trend in fantasy characters to be edgy is not tantamount to realism. Powerful people conquer Empires.

[Ser_Patreck]

You can't apply anti-Imperialism and anti-authoritarianism to a medieval fantasy setting any more than you can expect Westeros to become democratic because thats the only legitimate government and medieval society is evil. Dany in Mereen is not some take on the Iraq war by GRR Martin. Thats an asinine point to make. You can't equate suddenly place modern morality onto what Danys doing because theres an East/West dynamic.

You said she was morally right to use military power to impose her beliefs upon people. I pointed out a similar situation and asked if you'd say the same thing. You didn't answer.

Um, in real life people with power win and conquer Empires. Genghis Khan, Caeser, Alexander, Aegon the Conqueror, William the Conqueror, the Allies in WW2 they all very clearly won their conflicts. GRR Martin would actually be being unrealistic if he made it impossible for his POV to actually win. Thats being realistic. Just having your characters lose to go against the percieved trend in fantasy characters to be edgy is not tantamount to realism. Powerful people conquer Empires.

Yeah, they do. But here's what you said:

I know. She will crush them all. The Dothraki will kneel before her. Volantis will rise and declare her the messiah. The Yunkai, Ghiscari and Qartheen will be conquered.

Once the above is completed she will have the only army and fleet left in Essos.

Not if she frees every slave in Essos and the majority population takes charge. Without external aid the deposed ruling slaver class can never take power again.

No one woman can do that in an Empire anyway. Most of that is handled at the provisional and district level. Plus shes done a pretty good job considering that Martin gave her possibly the worst city to govern because it had nothing other than the slave trade to its economy. Other cities are easier because they actually trade and she can open them to Mereenese trade this solving the trade embargo placed on Mereen.

This is not conquering an Empire. This is a pink sweet fantasy.

Conquering an Empire means shedding blood, making prisoners, killing indiscriminately, sacking cities, razing farms to the ground...

Can Dany do it? Sure! But don't go and say that she was morally upstanding while doing that, and that all of her subjects are now happy, healthy and satisfied. This is patently false.

[E-Ro]

What I want to know is if Dany wins westeros what happens when she Dies? She cant have kids, or has everyone forgotten about this? And her naming a succesor is a tricky buisness, it will probably lead to another war.

[Winter's Knight]

Do they though? Like I said, her handmaidens refer to other servants as slaves — she corrects them, but calling shit a rose doesn't improve the smell. Dany talks about people tending the fields and doing labor, and Xaro asks if they're being compensated. She says yes, they're being paid in food and shelter (but presumably not money). The joke being that slaves are also provided food and shelter, but not money.

This is so-we don't have any evidence that Dany is paying her slave but on the other hand, ex-slaves who went into business are making money and entering guilds.

Now the question is, is the forced labour any different from what serfs in Westoros suffer? There is no mention made of them being paid. The Septon on the QI explicitly tells Brienne that he was a soldier in the war of the Ninepenny Kings and "never saw a penny".

[Morrigan]

I hate to say it but I lost so much respect for GRRM with that comment. He somehow managed to reduce one of the most complex characters in the series to just being "hot", which was both degrading and misogynistic... and just generally gross.

Obvious joke. Come on now, you're really grasping at straws to make GRRM look bad. :rolleyes:

[total1402]

You said she was morally right to use military power to impose her beliefs upon people. I pointed out a similar situation and asked if you'd say the same thing. You didn't answer.

This is not conquering an Empire. This is a pink sweet fantasy.

Conquering an Empire means shedding blood, making prisoners, killing indiscriminately, sacking cities, razing farms to the ground...

Can Dany do it? Sure! But don't go and say that she was morally upstanding while doing that, and that all of her subjects are now happy, healthy and satisfied. This is patently false.

You are ignoring the context. The belief that it is evil to intervene in the affairs of another nation is a legalist invention developed after the Treaty of Westiphalia in 1644 and linked to the notion of national soveriegnty. It was largely out of a desire to prevent conflict and an external power acting in support of religious elements inside their own borders. This is why the Iraq War is considered illegal and wrong. It violated international law and the prescribed standards of national soveriegnty. One nation imposed its own moral standards of governence upon another. That, is what is objected to. Not the actual removal of Sadam or even the concept of military force for the greater good; something the UN actually allows under its mandate. Had the Iraqis done it themselves; perfectly legitimate. But this is a purely modern invention that was alien to the medieval period and to Westeros. International law is as much about modern morality as is the notion of democracy being an inherent good or that status should be based on ability not birth. For that reason it does not apply to any judgement of Dany that she does not behave to an acceptable standard of modern international law because she does not have to cater to the readers modern expectations of behaviour between sovereign nation-states and the expectation she not intervene in their affairs. We can no more judge her for that than we can for Westeros executing people for crimes and serfdom.

You know I believe, as I'am endlessly told, that Martin is pushing moral greyness so even if Dany does crush her enemies like ants she is still fulfilling a Greater Good.

[E-Ro]

Now the question is, is the forced labour any different from what serfs in Westoros suffer?

Yes, it is completely different, they own houses and can generally do whatever they want. They dont get beaten, punished etc.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is not conquering an Empire. This is a pink sweet fantasy.

This pretty much sums up that person's position, from what I've seen. "Burn it down, rah rah rah."

This is so-we don't have any evidence that Dany is paying her slave but on the other hand, ex-slaves who went into business are making money and entering guilds.

So if some people are making money, does that negate the fact that other people are, apparently, being forced to dig ditches without compensation?

Now the question is, is the forced labour any different from what serfs in Westoros suffer? There is no mention made of them being paid. The Septon on the QI explicitly tells Brienne that he was a soldier in the war of the Ninepenny Kings and "never saw a penny".

Other than Harrenhal — and I'm pretty sure that we're meant to see Tywin and Roose and Co. as villainous for that — is there evidence of people in Westeros doing hard labor for free? They have their own houses and have freedom of mobility — if I'm in the Vale, I can go to the Stormlands if I damn well please. The way I understand it, serfs in Westeros are typically able to sell crops and other goods and services. The problem is that the armies have gone in and taken the goods and crops, and there's nothing to sell. That seems more symptomatic of this civil war than of any systemic problem in the economy.

[Winter's Knight]

So if some people are making money, does that negate the fact that other people are, apparently, being forced to dig ditches without compensation?

I did not dispute your point.

Other than Harrenhal — and I'm pretty sure that we're meant to see Tywin and Roose and Co. as villainous for that — is there evidence of people in Westeros doing hard labor for free? They have their own houses and have freedom of mobility — if I'm in the Vale, I can go to the Stormlands if I damn well please. The way I understand it, serfs in Westeros are typically able to sell crops and other goods and services. The problem is that the armies have gone in and taken the goods and crops, and there's nothing to sell. That seems more symptomatic of this civil war than of any systemic problem in the economy.

I was thinking of the Sworn Sword and Septon Meribald's villages-subsisting on barter.

Serfs in Westoros can sell goods and services, as can ex-slaves. During times of emergency, serfs can be pushed into service without being paid-soldiers and the blacksmiths in ACoK for instance.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was thinking of the Sworn Sword and Septon Meribald's villages-subsisting on barter.

I'm pretty sure that bartering, especially in feudal times, was a legitimate way of exchanging goods and services and is not the same as doing something for nothing. Like, if you were a midwife who delivered a baby, you might be paid in chickens or butter or vegetables as often as you would be in coin. What would one of Dany's ditch-diggers have to barter?

[Winter's Knight]

I'm pretty sure that bartering, especially in feudal times, was a legitimate way of exchanging goods and services and is not the same as doing something for nothing. Like, if you were a midwife who delivered a baby, you might be paid in chickens or butter or vegetables as often as you would be in coin. What would one of Dany's ditch-diggers have to barter?

It's a state of emergency and requires immediate action. Like serfs and other non-nobles in Westoros have to work without pay.