On paedophilia and moral relativism

[Garlan Marius]

1. Soft, sweet smelling Sansa

We can stop right here and know that you are greatly and intentionally misreading the books. In the context of that chapter, that conversation, that sentence, Tyrion does not mean "I sure want to bone Sansa." The sentence is all about "boy, putting her in a marriage with me would be torture for her." The brazen attempts to blackwash Tyrion with this are absurd.

[Natalie_S]

We can stop right here and know that you are greatly and intentionally misreading the books. In the context of that chapter, that conversation, that sentence, Tyrion does not mean "I sure want to bone Sansa." The sentence is all about "boy, putting her in a marriage with me would be torture for her." The brazen attempts to blackwash Tyrion with this are absurd.

Also:

4. I wondered if I told her I wanted her maidenhead tonight

is completely out of context, because the whole scene is about how he doesn't want just a wife that beds him for duty but he wants a relationship like that that he sees in the Fossoway couple at the wedding.

All the other quotes are about how Tyrion would like his marriage to work, because he cares for Sansa (not bedding someone at his own expenses, being mocked by the whole Red Keep and criticized by his father, and wishing that he could help her get through her grief are generally signs of care for someone) and he thinks that he won't have the possibility of another marriage since everyone refused him (we don't know if Tywin was sincere when he said so, but Tyrion surely believed him).

[The Storm Queen]

This is anecdotal, but most people I've found guilty of historical presentism, tend to be very black and white in their thinking. Its always about labeling some person as bad, while letting society and human nature completely off the hook. This is a world where kings are intrinisically better then all the lords beneath them, who in turn are intrinstically better then all their knights. . . ect. Obviously characters in this world are going to violate others rights.

My guess is it comes from an underappreciation of how large of an impact environment plays in what we preceive as right or wrong.

Your post in a nutshell: People who disagree with my opinion concerning this topic lack the capacity to think critically.

You are aware that the thing is a bit more complicated, I hope?

[Monica21]

Okay. I'm getting more than a little tired of being told I don't understand character motivations because I haven't done a reread yet. I can't offer quotes because I haven't memorized their chapters, but I do know that Tyrion left her alone. He didn't touch her after that first night or even attempt to. When she left KL after Joffrey's murder he remembered the cloak of protection and what it symbolized.

1. Soft, sweet smelling Sansa

2. You're a child, but I want you

3. Bring me her lusts, her joys, her sorrow

4. I wondered if I told her I wanted her maidenhead tonight

1. Again, he's a guy

2. Yeah? So? He's her husband.

3. I actually thought the joys and sorrows bit was tender and focused on that. Sounds to me like what Tyrion wants in a wife is everything. Not just dutiful sex.

4. Well within his rights as a husband.

[Garlan Marius]

Also:

4. I wondered if I told her I wanted her maidenhead tonight

is completely out of context, because the whole scene is about how he doesn't want just a wife that beds him for duty but he wants a relationship like that that he sees in the Fossoway couple at the wedding.

All the other quotes are about how Tyrion would like his marriage to work, because he cares for Sansa (not bedding someone at his own expenses, being mocked by the whole Red Keep and criticized by his father, and wishing that he could help her get through her grief are generally signs of care for someone) and he thinks that he won't have the possibility of another marriage since everyone refused him (we don't know if Tywin was sincere when he said so, but Tyrion surely believed him).

Quote #2 is putting a drunk, heterosexual male in a room with a naked woman, an expected response. Considering the rest of the scene is about Tyrion trying to work up the courage (or drink enough liquid courage) to go through with a bedding neither he nor his wife want, it is another gross misrepresentation of the text.

Quote #3 is completely out of left field, a desire to actually get to know his wife and make the best of a bad situation.

[Ser_Patreck]

For what it's worth, my quote about "waking the dragon" was meant as a joke about how you just need to mention "Tyrion" or "Sansa" or "seeing beneath his appearance" to turn the whole thread into a fuckfest discussion about their marriage for the 1000000th time this week, generally protagonized by the same posters on both sides.

It was facetious, not meant to be taken seriously.

[danm_999]

Oh but apparently we are not part of the "Western world" since that is apparently defined by language alone, i.e. the English language, and as native speakers too.

Pardon me for going off somewhere with my oh so "foreign culture" to do, I don't know, foreign stuff?

Please re-read my posts. I did not suggest non-English countries were not part of the Western world. I suggest their practices do not form the standard of the Western world in terms of population.

In fact, my argument is predicated on acknowledging several non-English speaking European countries like Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, etc.

Indeed, nobody cares about those German and French philosophers like Diderot, Montesquieu, Rousseau , Sartre, Marx, Heidegger, Engels, Kant, Nietzsche etc

Not to mention the ever older ones like Aristotle, Plato, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas

This is a subjective area honestly, but I'd say philosophically and scientifically, the UK and USA are the two most single dominant nations in terms of Western influence.

Again that doesn't pretend they have a monopoly on influence (and pretending I've implied nobody cares about German and French philosophers and scientists is just a strawman), but in my opinion, the influence of John Locke, Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin, Thomas Jefferson, Shakespeare, Thomas Edison, Alan Turing, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, the Wright Brothers, Bertrand Russell and Stephen Hawking, are a hard group for any other two nations to beat in the science/philosophy game.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Okay. I'm getting more than a little tired of being told I don't understand character motivations because I haven't done a reread yet. I can't offer quotes because I haven't memorized their chapters, but I do know that Tyrion left her alone. He didn't touch her after that first night or even attempt to. When she left KL after Joffrey's murder he remembered the cloak of protection and what it symbolized.

1. Again, he's a guy

2. Yeah? So? He's her husband.

3. I actually thought the joys and sorrows bit was tender and focused on that. Sounds to me like what Tyrion wants in a wife is everything. Not just dutiful sex.

4. Well within his rights as a husband.

1. I thought ''The sentence is all about "boy, putting her in a marriage with me would be torture for her." explained it quite well. Better that than saying 'Again, he's a guy'. That won't win you an argument.

2. 'He's a guy' would be better placed here. Plus he didn't say it to her, he only thought about it. Point for Tyrion.

3. Yes, this. Well explained.

4. No, just no. She was forced into the marriage, Tyrion absolutely has no rights whatsoever. Luckily, he doesn't claim he has those rights. (I'd argue no one has the right of taken anyone's maidenhood if he/she doesn't want it. 'Not even' a husband.)

[brashcandy]

Okay. I'm getting more than a little tired of being told I don't understand character motivations because I haven't done a reread yet. I can't offer quotes because I haven't memorized their chapters, but I do know that Tyrion left her alone. He didn't touch her after that first night or even attempt to. When she left KL after Joffrey's murder he remembered the cloak of protection and what it symbolized.

1. Again, he's a guy

2. Yeah? So? He's her husband.

3. I actually thought the joys and sorrows bit was tender and focused on that. Sounds to me like what Tyrion wants in a wife is everything. Not just dutiful sex.

4. Well within his rights as a husband.

"Yeah? So? he's her husband?" :eek: She was forced into marrying him and that doesn't mean shit? Anyhoo, my point stands. Your claim that Tyrion did not want Sansa is wrong. And this goes to all the others that picked out my quotes and tried to provide "context."

Oh dear! I have woken the dragon, I think and I still have two more pages of comments to go through! (Silly me for turning in last night after posting now I shall have to catch up). I should like to make the point though that a husband is more than just someone who fucks you. There. I am not talking about rape here (Tyrion didn't touch Sansa). And Tyrion would have been a good ally for Sansa even if their marriage was just in name and not deed. Sansa needed/needs an ally. And Tyrion is one hell of a better ally than Littlefinger. Tryion was not offering to fuck her he was offering her protection from his own family. This is very much symbolized in the exchanging of cloaks in the wedding ceremony. (I am talking the wedding ceremony in general symbolizes this the fact that Sansa wouldn't let Tyrion cloak her just shows how she didn't accept his protection.)

Serious question: Did I read another version of ASOS where Tyrion doesn't marry Sansa to get his hands on Winterfell, thereby forcing her to potentially endure marital rape and death when she gave birth to a child and her usefulness was up for the Lannisters? How was Tyrion offering her protection from his family when he was going along with his family's wishes? If another Lannister had married Sansa it would have resulted in the same end result, so I'm at a loss as to how Tyrion was protecting her, truly, unless we're talking about the reprieve he gives her on the bedding night? And that's no protection from his family, just protection from himself, and it couldn't have lasted much longer had she not escaped.

Note I did not say: Sansa would have liked it if she let Tyrion fuck her. No. That is an entirely different thing. I said he would have been a good husband to her if she let him. If she let him protect her, he would have. If she let him into her pain, he would have tried to help her. If she opened up about her concerns he would have done his best to alleviate them. Tyrion himself mentions more than once how he wants to comfort her but Sansa keeps her tears to herself. These are the things that make up a marriage.

Huh? These are the things that make up a marriage, yes, but they couldn't be present in that marriage because it was forced and a sham. :bang: How can Sansa bring her grief and sorrows to the man who is causing them?

Tyrion would have protected her, provided for her, comforted her, been kind to her, and I dare say come to love her (love as in care for not desire) had she given him a chance (not a chance to fuck her but a chance to prove himself to her).

Tyrion was depending on Sansa to protect and provide for him through her claim to Winterfell. He likes to imagine that he could have done the same but we see in the text that it's folly. He constantly antagonizes Joffrey, which only serves to endanger both him and Sansa to a greater degree.

In a time/place where marriages are arranged and she had NO allies, Tyrion was a more understanding and patient man than she could have hoped for. Would Joff had restrained himself on their wedding night to wait until Sansa was ready? No. Would Wilas? Probably not. We know less about him, so we can't say for certain. Lancel wouldn't have touched her, but he also wouldn't have offered her the protection of his name as he planned to leave his wife the moment he could join the faith. Tyrion himself would have been her friend first and then an ally and protector before he ever presumed to touch her body and take her. It says a lot.

Sansa did have allies, that's how she got out of KL. Willas would not have been required to restrain himself since Sansa was actually willing to marry him, and I don't see why he wouldn't have waited until she was older since there would have been no rush. Joffrey would have been an out and out rapist, and so would Tyrion had he "consummated" on the night. As for the protection of Tyrion's name, how did this benefit Sansa? All she got for it was a probable disinheritance from her brother Robb and snide remarks from Stannis in ADWD.

Sansa was forced into a marriage, but she was going to be forced into a marriage all along simply for the fact that she was a girl. There was never a guarantee that she would love or like her husband. There was never a guarantee that her husband would have been kind instead of cruel. Should they have given her to Bolton instead of fake Arya? These are troubled times and she needed a strong ally, which is why I still maintain that Tyrion would have been a good husband to her if she let him. Did it have a romantic or loving start? No. But then most people argue that Ned and Cats love is genuine and strong and yet they married as practically strangers.

Ned and Cat was an arranged marriage, and neither found the other particularly repulsive. I don't see the point of bringing in these other examples of worse men to excuse Tyrion's culpability either. I'm certainly aware that Sansa could have had it worse, and Sansa herself remembers Tyrion as being kind to her, but it doesn't excuse his actions, neither does it provide any rationale for thinking they could have become allies.

But for someone who was so desperate for allies that she trusted a drunken fool, you think she would have at least tried to open her eyes to what was in front of her. Not saying she should have slept with him, but at least befriending him could have change the future predicaments for them both.

She did open her eyes to what was in front of her: a Lannister. Another Lannister who was looking to exploit her claim to Winterfell. Another Lannister whom she could not trust with her secrets since they were antithetical to hers.

[danm_999]

One - You are mentioning these smallish countries only now. Not that it takes from the argument, mind you, but when your whole point was "Well, it is 16 in US, Australy and New Zaeland..."

True, but I've consistently mentioned the US, UK, Canada, etc, which still outnumber the France/Germany/Spain/Italy combination. I'm arguing a standard, not a universal standard.

Two - Even in the US 16 isn't an accepted deal.

Which is why I factored in subtracting the 1 million or so New Hampshir-ites.

New Hampshire is tiny in both size and population compared to most states, so it doesn't really hurt the 'standard' argument.

Three - Argumentum ad populum is really worthless here. Comparative populations doesn't matter - the things is, an "informed age of consent" is not an uncontroversial, uniform idea through "the West".

Why? I'm arguing standard practice. Arguments from population seems EXACTLY the argument we need to be considering.

I'm getting a bit tired of pointing out I'm arguing a standard, and not a universal standard, though your post obviously feels I'm doing the latter despite my several objections to that notion.

[winterbird]

Let's think for a moment here too. Tyrion desires her sexually. Maybe. She is at that point his wife. He is supposed to bed her which means yes he is thinking about her body. Before the marriage Tyrion doesn't go around thinking wow that Sansa is a hot piece of ass, I can't wait to get her bodice off. The sexual desire is completely situation. They are in a room together, naked and for all intents and purposes it seems to surprise him that he wants her. Up until the moment that he had to view her naked there is no desire on his part. But then you have it. She is naked, she is his wife, it is within his right to take her whether she wants it or no. And he does not do it. From then on he sleeps in his clothing and makes her sleep in hers (he's seen what's under there now... it's not like he can unsee her naked. And Sansa is described as having a woman's body.)

Tyrion was good to her. He did not touch her and he seemed to understand that she was not yet ready for a physical relationship with him. That in itself should have spoke volumes to Sansa as well as the fact that he helped her quite a few times in the previous year. I'm not saying she should suddenly desire him or want him in her bed. All I was saying was that Tyrion had been good to her, continued to be good to her, and would have kept being good to her had she trusted her. (Though I think her trusting him would have unraveled the plot involving Joff's wedding and made that go wrong somehow and how could she leave him to take the blame if they were friends? I get why it doesn't happen). I'm not saying they should have gotten to it in their marriage bed or that they should have been friends. Those work against GRRMs plots. What I am saying is that Tyrion was never bad to Sansa and would not have been. You can question their marriage as him being "bad" to her because she was forced but it was others that did the forcing. Sansa was a ward of the crown and would have had to wed whomever they chose for her. She could have done a lot worse than Tyrion and was not like to do much better.

I'm not condemning her for not opening up to Tyrion or letting him help her. I know exactly why she doesn't. I'm not questioning Sansa at all. All I was saying was that had she given him a chance, Tyrion would have been good to her. She didn't give him the chance, but he was good to her for the short time they were together even if he was at a loss of how to make her happy.

For what it's worth, my quote about "waking the dragon" was meant as a joke about how you just need to mention "Tyrion" or "Sansa" or "seeing beneath his appearance" to turn the whole thread into a fuckfest discussion about their marriage for the 1000000th time this week, generally protagonized by the same posters on both sides.

It was facetious, not meant to be taken seriously.

Oh yes I got that too. I mentioned something in passing and it did blow up though didn't it? :) I find it funny too because I'm not a Sansa/Tyrion fan. At all. So it's strange to have these conversations.

[mormont]

[mod] The discussion is getting a little heated, so I'll remind people that it is not a good idea to make things personal. Respond to the points, don't criticise the person for making them. Wouldn't like to have to close this down over a flamewar. [/mod]

[Ser_Patreck]

True, but I've consistently mentioned the US, UK, Canada, etc, which still outnumber the France/Germany/Spain/Italy combination. I'm arguing a standard, not a universal standard.

Which is why I factored in subtracting the 1 million or so New Hampshir-ites.

Why? I'm arguing standard practice. Arguments from population seems EXACTLY the argument we need to be considering.

Yes, you were arguing a universal standard. You were arguing about "the Western world". And no, population doesn't matter. Unless the whole population voted in some kind of plebiscite to pass the law, it simply doesn't matter, If you want population to matter, do a survey about at which age people begun their sexual lives, and at which age they'd be comfortable with bedding someone. That'll give you a fuller picture.

Serious question: Did I read another version of ASOS where Tyrion doesn't marry Sansa to get his hands on Winterfell, thereby forcing her to potentially endure marital rape and death when she gave birth to a child and her usefulness was up for the Lannisters? How was Tyrion offering her protection from his family when he was going along with his family's wishes? If another Lannister had married Sansa it would have resulted in the same end result, so I'm at a loss as to how Tyrion was protecting her, truly, unless we're talking about the reprieve he gives her on the bedding night? And that's no protection from his family, just protection from himself, and it couldn't have lasted much longer had she not escaped.

Yup, because Lancel or Tyrek Lannsiter would be as willing as Tyrion to say "stuff it, Joffrey" when the charming biy King talks about raping Sansa in her wedding feast.

And good job downplaying Tyrion's restraint and consideration for Sansa's wishes. May it be because by acknowledging it you would be acknowledging Tyrion is a somewhat decent-ish man?

Sansa did have allies, that's how she got out of KL. Willas would not have been required to restrain himself since Sansa was actually willing to marry him, and I don't see why he wouldn't have waited until she was older since there would have been no rush. Joffrey would have been an out and out rapist, and so would Tyrion had he "consummated" on the night. As for the protection of Tyrion's name, how did this benefit Sansa? All she got for it was a probable disinheritance from her brother Robb and snide remarks from Stannis in ADWD.

No, Sansa didn't have allies. Sansa had pawnmasters. The Tyrells wanted to use her. Dontos was Littlefinger's tool, who wants to use her. And WIllas would have all the reasons to consumate the marriage, because at that point the High Septon is a Lannister puppet who would have the marriage annulled if there was no consummation, as I'm sure Olenna Tyrell knows.

And about the protection of Tyrion's name, let's see how the Harry the Heir plot works out, hrm?

Ned and Cat was an arranged marriage, and neither found the other particularly repulsive 1. I don't see the point of bringing in these other examples of worse men to excuse Tyrion's culpability either 2. I'm certainly aware that Sansa could have had it worse, and Sansa herself remembers Tyrion as being kind to her, but it doesn't excuse his actions, neither does it provide any rationale for thinking they could have become allies.

She did open her eyes to what was in front of her: a Lannister. Another Lannister who was looking to exploit her claim to Winterfell. Another Lannister whom she could not trust with her secrets since they were antithetical to hers.

1 - That's the whole of the issue, isn't it? Tyrion's repulsive.

2 - Hm, I'm sorry? The point is to deconstruct these arguments that Tyrion's an unforgivable monster that should die screaming in a pool of boiling blood. Is to show how foolish it is to treat that marriage as "Tyrion abusing Sansa". IS to make it clear that Sansa's situation, regarding her marriage, it wasn't half as horrendous as people make them out to be.

[Lady Lea]

"Sansa and Tyrion had a rough beginning" is just a little bit of an understatement.

[LuisDantas]

In all honesty, I think it is only fair to give both Tyrion and Sansa some good will when it comes to their marriage.

I sure can't blame Sansa for despising Tyrion. He is after all a Lannister, an ugly man, and a forced husband in a plot to take her family's lands and titles. For all she knows he feigned decency earlier to have her cooperation.

All the same, I can't very well blame Tyrion much for having desire for a beautiful young woman that just happens to be his wife, albeit against her wishes. It must be painful for him to only have women that he pays for, and he is only human. To his credit, he realizes that he has no right to force Sansa, despite living in a society that would fully support him if he wanted to. It is a humiliating situation for him, even if Sansa probably has it far worse.

[danm_999]

Yes, you were arguing a universal standard.

Please note from the first page of this thread I've never used the phrase "universal standard", except to say that's not what I'm arguing. I've consistently defined my argument in terms of "standard", essentially, what most are doing, not what all are doing.

You were arguing about "the Western world".

I was arguing about what most of the Western world was doing, not what all of the Western world was doing.

And no, population doesn't matter.

If I'm discussing what the standard practice is, it most certainly is relevant.

Unless the whole population voted in some kind of plebiscite to pass the law, it simply doesn't matter, If you want population to matter, do a survey about at which age people begun their sexual lives, and at which age they'd be comfortable with bedding someone. That'll give you a fuller picture.

My argument was been concerned only with the legal age of consent. I'm fully aware that all over the world people are likely having sex before that. Unfortunately, besides an impractically large and pretty creepy survey, I have no way to tell what the truth is there, and I can only judge based on legislated ages of consent, in which Western countries use 16 as standard.

[Lyanna Stark]

1 - That's the whole of the issue, isn't it? Tyrion's repulsive.

He is repulsive and he is a member of the family who wiped out Sansa's. So two very strong arguments against him.

You brought up Jaime's view on Brienne earlier to compare. What makes Jaime change his view of Brienne is how he admires her actions and that she reminds him of goodness and honour. Clearly, Tyrion does not have the same effect on Sansa.

2 - Hm, I'm sorry? The point is to deconstruct these arguments that Tyrion's an unforgivable monster that should die screaming in a pool of boiling blood. Is to show how foolish it is to treat that marriage as "Tyrion abusing Sansa". IS to make it clear that Sansa's situation, regarding her marriage, it wasn't half as horrendous as people make them out to be.

Hyperbole is hyperbole, nobody wants him to die screaming in a pool of boiling blood. However, the marriage to Sansa was 100% exploitative. She did not want to marry him. The reasons he agreed to the match in falling order: Winterfell, getting out of Tywin's hair and the fact that Sansa is attractive.

If you think attractiveness is not important to Tyrion, check his revulsion for Lollys.

If we are going to argue that Tyrion behaves far better than Joffrey, then of course he does. But that's not the level we're aiming at here, is it? Arguing that "well, it could have been worse" is also rather pointless since it becomes some sort of suffering derby. Who suffered the most? Should we rank them?

I think anyone can agree that Tyrion's pain for not having a pretty girl who was forced into marrying him want him is fairly small compared to Sansa's agony about having been forced into such a match. Especially consider that they in essence made her a Lannister, while Tyrion got to keep his identity.

[Ser_Patreck]

If I'm discussing what the standard practice is, it most certainly is relevant.

My argument was been concerned only with the legal age of consent. I'm fully aware that all over the world people are likely having sex before that.

So, are you arguing for standard practice or standard law? If the latter, no, population numbers don't matter, because it's not like the whole population approve of the law, respect the law, or wouldn't change the law if they could.

It's like saying having only one child in the end-all of Far-Eastern thought because Chine has a population of billions. It's simply exaggeration

[Monica21]

1. I thought ''The sentence is all about "boy, putting her in a marriage with me would be torture for her." explained it quite well. Better that than saying 'Again, he's a guy'. That won't win you an argument.

I'm not trying to win. Brashcandy's mind won't change, but by the same token, no amount of rereads will make me believe that Tyrion is an evil pedophile who wanted to rape Sansa for her claim to Winterfell.*

4. No, just no. She was forced into the marriage, Tyrion absolutely has no rights whatsoever. Luckily, he doesn't claim he has those rights. (I'd argue no one has the right of taken anyone's maidenhood if he/she doesn't want it. 'Not even' a husband.)

Tyrion was forced into marriage too. In this time, he does have marital rights. He can claim her when he wants and he doesn't need permission. Husbands claiming their rights has been referenced on more than one occasion. Even Jaime mentions Robert claiming his rights during the journey to Winterfell. Tyrion simply chooses not to claim those rights under the (false) hope that if he remains kind to Sansa she'll come to him on her own.

"Yeah? So? he's her husband?" :eek: She was forced into marrying him and that doesn't mean shit? Anyhoo, my point stands. Your claim that Tyrion did not want Sansa is wrong. And this goes to all the others that picked out my quotes and tried to provide "context."

Context is everything. If the context is wrong then the assumption is wrong.

Serious question: Did I read another version of ASOS where Tyrion doesn't marry Sansa to get his hands on Winterfell, thereby forcing her to potentially endure marital rape and death when she gave birth to a child and her usefulness was up for the Lannisters?

Well, in the version I read Tywin arranged the marriage to get his hands on Winterfell and didn't really care which Lannister married Sansa.

How was Tyrion offering her protection from his family when he was going along with his family's wishes? If another Lannister had married Sansa it would have resulted in the same end result, so I'm at a loss as to how Tyrion was protecting her, truly, unless we're talking about the reprieve he gives her on the bedding night? And that's no protection from his family, just protection from himself, and it couldn't have lasted much longer had she not escaped.

I'm talking about the trial:

"Did Sansa Stark do it, then?" Lord Tyrell demanded.

I would have, if I'd been her. Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulder, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it. "The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie."

*Brashcandy, I do agree with most of your deconstruction of Sansa, but I can't agree with your views about her marriage. It was just a crapfest for both of them.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

He is repulsive and he is a member of the family who wiped out Sansa's. So two very strong arguments against him.

Hyperbole is hyperbole, nobody wants him to die screaming in a pool of boiling blood. However, the marriage to Sansa was 100% exploitative. She did not want to marry him. The reasons he agreed to the match in falling order: Winterfell, getting out of Tywin's hair and the fact that Sansa is attractive.

If you think attractiveness is not important to Tyrion, check his revulsion for Lollys.

If we are going to argue that Tyrion behaves far better than Joffrey, then of course he does. But that's not the level we're aiming at here, is it? Arguing that "well, it could have been worse" is also rather pointless since it becomes some sort of suffering derby. Who suffered the most? Should we rank them?

I think anyone can agree that Tyrion's pain for not having a pretty girl who was forced into marrying him want him is fairly small compared to Sansa's agony about having been forced into such a match. Especially consider that they in essence made her a Lannister, while Tyrion got to keep his identity.

But Tyrion did not claim his so-called 'rights' (really, I hate to say that word. Rights.. As if everyone has the right to have sex with someone just because you''e married but nevermind) and protected her during the time they were together. He even protected her before their wedding, although that had also something to do with the fact that Jaime was still with the Starks. He was well aware of the fact why she turned him down and didn't blame her for it. He understood her in that matter.

The fact that Sansa was attractive did play some sort of role as he didn't want to marry Lollys, but it definitely wasn't one of the main reasons. Winterfell wasn't either. He only thinks of being Lord of Winterfell when his father and Kevan are discussing the marriage. Point is that he did marry Sansa to spare her from the worst, he did feel sorry for her. He was well aware she absolutely hated the Lannisters and that she had a miserable life in King's Landing. He defended her from Joffrey during the Purple Wedding and before that for example.

I mostly agree with you and brashcandy when it comes to Sansa (about almost anything, actually), but not when you guys start talking about how Tyrion exploited the marriage etc. He didn't, imo.