Why is there dislike for Jon Snow?

[The Snowman]

I dont hate him, just hate that every week there's a thread about how no one should hate him.

No offense to ts, you're new, but this thread plays out 4x a month. Kudos to you old timers that have the energy for it.

Im not saying people aren't allowed or shouldn't hate him I'm just wondering why people dislike the character. Widening my view on the character.

[The Snowman]

A fantasy novel the author of which deliberately tried to avoid and subvert the typical fantasy cliches for the most part (or at least keep them at a low level). Jon is one of the exceptions, unfortunately.

Cant be totally unique and totally different and tbh the ending is going to have some cliche'd moments and that just part of novels

[Warg of Dragons]

Personally i dont feel that there is that much predictability to any character. Jon is one of my favorites as well but i think its only because i was in love with ygritte. He was whiny at first but that is one thing i love is the character development, for example i dont hate jamie nearly as much as i did at first.

[Jaime: King of Swag]

For me, at the end of SoS, I had a cool image of Commander Jon Snow who eats with the troops, knows how to have a laugh, has all his friends around him to help and has the full support of his men, telling Stannis to "fuck off, the watch takes no part.

The first thing he does is stop eating with everybody else, send his best friend away. I see why he did it, but I guess it was my disappointment that made me sulky.

Next, he didn't stand up to Stannis, which made me even sulkier!

Up next came the kicking out of Grenn and Pyp, and that was the last straw for me. Everything after that is a blur of angst up untill his badass speach in the shield hall, where I thought "YES! YES! He's coming back! That's the Jon I thought he was going to be!!"...........and then knives happened.

That's my view on it.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

I don't know about others, but here are my main reasons. Jon's a total fantasy cliche - he's the secret heir, the reluctant leader/hero, the young prodigy saving the world against all odds, etc. All decent people around him start liking him pretty much instantly after meeting him and only the biggest jerks dare to dislike him. His plotline is boring and full of contrived moments. His personality is just not interesting to read about.

You could replace "secret heir" with "exiled heir" and this would describe Dany perfectly.

Time and time again he's rewarded for being passive and avoiding the hard choices, unlike any main other character.

This I disagree with. Jon's "hard choices" resulted in him getting stabbed in the back. He also made a hard decision to devote his life to the NW.

[PatrickStormborn]

I, personally, just don't find Jon interesting to read about. His personality is a bit bland for me. I can't help but feel when I'm reading his chapters that Martin is afraid of making him unlikable, and for me part of the reason I love my favourite characters is because of their "flaws" -- they make them feel more like real people rather than typical fantasy characters. Hopefully post-death Jon will be more interesting.

You could replace "secret heir" with "exiled heir" and this would describe Dany perfectly.

The difference is that Daenerys is not the heir to the Iron Throne if Jon (or Aegon) is legitimate, and she's a far more controversial character. In fact, she's also definitely not a reluctant hero/leader; she may have been happy with Drogo/Viserys/Rhaego being her king, but she's more than willing to be a queen now if it means she can give justice.

[Sevumar]

A fantasy novel the author of which deliberately tried to avoid and subvert the typical fantasy cliches for the most part (or at least keep them at a low level). Jon is one of the exceptions, unfortunately.

I think that because Martin has a reputation for subverting fantasy tropes, some people interpret that to mean that most of the traditional tools and archetypes for storytelling must also be off the table. That's a pretty unrealistic standard to hold an author to, even one with Martin's skill at painting characters and managing details.

Jon is the character whose arc most resembles your traditional hero's journey/coming of age story, but that doesn't make him boring or unlikeable on the merits. The story needs characters of all kinds and it is not so surprising to find one like Jon hidden in its pages. It's also important to keep in mind that Jon's story is probably far from over and there are likely to be a few more twists before we know how everything shakes out for him.

I, personally, just don't find Jon interesting to read about. His personality is a bit bland for me. I can't help but feel when I'm reading his chapters that Martin is afraid of making him unlikable, and for me part of the reason I love my favourite characters is because of their "flaws" -- they make them feel more like real people rather than typical fantasy characters. Hopefully post-death Jon will be more interesting.

I think this is an exaggeration. You might not like Jon's personality, but he definitely has one as one of the few characters on the decidedly "good" side of Martin's mostly grey spectrum. That doesn't excuse his mistakes or wipe away his flaws, but he's written with a high degree of skill and believability. You might not like him, and that's fine, but that's a matter of personal preference, not a fact of the text. He has a personality, you're just not fond of it.

The difference is that Daenerys is not the heir to the Iron Throne if Jon (or Aegon) is legitimate, and she's a far more controversial character. In fact, she's also definitely not a reluctant hero/leader; she may have been happy with Drogo/Viserys/Rhaego being her king, but she's more than willing to be a queen now if it means she can give justice.

If Dany keeps "giving justice" the way she's been dispensing it in the last few books, she's not on the road to becoming a very good ruler. She's more controversial because she lacks the thought, skill, and preparation that successful leaders possess. Her chapters contain a lot of blind emotional flailing in the process of making decisions, and that's an awful trait in a civil leader.

[Chaircat Meow]

I can't help but feel when I'm reading his chapters that Martin is afraid of making him unlikable, and for me part of the reason I love my favourite characters is because of their "flaws" -- they make them feel more like real people rather than typical fantasy characters.

Maybe GrrM just doesn't want to give Jon the sort of personality that renders a character like Dany obnoxious to lots of readers. There's no reason to assume authorial timidity is at play here, just because you don't find Jon interesting.

And how some of the character flaws in Asoiaf make certain individuals more human is something I can only guess at.

[Last of the Darklyns]

I love the Jon POV. After ASOS he became my favorite chapters too read. I am a little not too pleased about him not marrying Val and becoming a stark. Ned would of wanted that :(. When he read the letter and got all badass i was soooo pumped but then ya........... :drunk:

I was overjoyed he didn't do that because I hate Stannis and though one of the good things about him was that he at least was TRYING to stay to his vows.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

The difference is that Daenerys is not the heir to the Iron Throne if Jon (or Aegon) is legitimate, and she's a far more controversial character. In fact, she's also definitely not a reluctant hero/leader; she may have been happy with Drogo/Viserys/Rhaego being her king, but she's more than willing to be a queen now if it means she can give justice.

It's true that Dany is most likely not the heir, but that doesn't change the fact that her storyline still follows the typical arc of an exile learning to lead while trying to reclaim the throne.

As for the reluctance, I would put Dany's reluctance on par with Jon's. Dany initially doesn't care too much about Westeros(she would prefer the house with the red door and lemon tree in Braavos) but along the way she changes her mind and decides to be a leader in her own right. Similarly, Jon doesn't care about being a leader but when Donel Noye gave him command of the wall, he took it with very little hesitation and then when he's elected LC, he accepts without any hesitation.

[Faint]

I like him very much but, like Daenerys (who I also like), I can see why readers wouldn't and find that position completely reasonable.

Going along with that train of thought, I think the structure of their stories are very similar. They have both largely operated in isolation of the other POVs in a setting wholly different from Westeros. They are both written in arch-typical hero fashion, complete with the trappings of such (i.e., magical weapons, mythical animals, secret parentage, prophecies, etc.). And, of course, things tend to work out for them no matter how much adversity they face.

So if you're not into all that, it's hardly surprising you wouldn't like either of them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Do you have a reservoir of these "shut down posts" handy at all times? Copy paste style? Or are they stored in your noggin?

It's all in the noggin, my good man.

[Winter's Knight]

It's all in the noggin, my good man.

'tis true, she has them by rote.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

A fantasy novel the author of which deliberately tried to avoid and subvert the typical fantasy cliches for the most part (or at least keep them at a low level). Jon is one of the exceptions, unfortunately.

And it can't maybe be that at the end of the day, GRRM isn't actually as "subversive" as some people think?

[Faint]

A fantasy novel the author of which deliberately tried to avoid and subvert the typical fantasy cliches for the most part (or at least keep them at a low level). Jon is one of the exceptions, unfortunately.

This is patently untrue. The author is always severely mischaracterized when he has always been far more conventional than popular opinion would have it. Killing Ned, Robb and Catelyn did nothing to alter the facts of the matter. They were never the heroes of the series and they were never intended to be.

Is Jon, to some extent, a cliche? Yes, of course he is. Arya? The same. Daenerys? Bingo.

Bran, Tyrion and Sansa are supposed to be the more novel heroes of the series because they are less cliche than the other three but even they fall prey to dozens of the same tropes that have seen countless use in other books of the fantasy genre.

[Mulled Wino]

This is patently untrue. The author is always severely mischaracterized when he has always been far more conventional than popular opinion would have it. Killing Ned, Robb and Catelyn did nothing to alter the facts of the matter. They were never the heroes of the series and they were never intended to be.

Is Jon, to some extent, a cliche? Yes, of course he is. Arya? The same. Daenerys? Bingo.

Bran, Tyrion and Sansa are supposed to be the more novel heroes of the series because they are less cliche than the other three but even they fall prey to dozens of the same tropes that have seen countless use in other books of the fantasy genre.

Agreed. If you're going to apply the logic to one character, might as well to all. There's enough depth of story for pretty much all pov's in this series to understand all the characters to overlook. Imo of course

[lostcause]

He's my favourite character, the whole bit about him being too emotional...I don't get it. he seems human - only over-emotional compared to someone like The Mountain or similar.

[My big fat red wedding]

To me it seems he's a bit too wise beyond his years, he never seems to have to deal with his age the way Robb does and I can't really recall him making any mistakes. He's just a bit too perfect for my tastes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

To me it seems he's a bit too wise beyond his years, he never seems to have to deal with his age the way Robb does and I can't really recall him making any mistakes. He's just a bit too perfect for my tastes.

He was just stabbed in an assassination attempt. I love Jon, but homeskillet didn't get knifed because he did everything perfectly, you know?

[Dimadick]

A lot of readers don't enjoy the "predictability" of his purpose in the story - not how his story will play out, per say, but just that he is really important to what is going to happen / the potential "heir to the throne" who was raised as a bastard beneath his station, blah blah typical underdog turned hero "trope". Hence why some people are so gung ho about him actually being dead...another great Martin troll to a potential protagonist...

Important in the plot? Most of his actions so far barely register in other POVs. Potential heir? Yeah right, once he actually exhibits some ambition. A rather healthy, decently educated, well-trained soldier with noble background. Is that an underdog? He has it better than most people on the Watch.

I mostly tolerate him as a rather bland POV character, while we get to meet more interesting characters through his eyes. His constant self-pity is getting on my nerves, his frequent thoughts about oaths are repetitive, and his decision-making tends on the idealistic rather than pragmatic. When he takes center stage instead of acting as a secondary character, I can barely get through his chapters.

Then again I am not overly interested in the Watch and the Wildlings, and find the Others insignificant. I am more interested in the political struggles, intrigue and mysteries in the series. Not in apocalyptic scenarios. The one struggle of Jon I am interested in is not his struggle with how to best honor his vows. Its the struggle with supply problems. Which has yet to be addressed in realistic terms.