Why is there dislike for Jon Snow?

[My big fat red wedding]

He was just stabbed in an assassination attempt. I love Jon, but homeskillet didn't get knifed because he did everything perfectly, you know?

It's not just his own actions that always seem to work out for him, it is his circumstances as well.

I highly doubt this event won't turn out to be anything other than beneficial for him in the long run. He's a bit like Danaerys in that regard; every little setback only seems to be a stepping stone to something greater eventually. Except for the whole becoming barren thing.

Unless GRRM actually has the balls to keep him dead. But with a Red Priestess around I find that unlikely.

[Chaircat Meow]

To me it seems he's a bit too wise beyond his years, he never seems to have to deal with his age the way Robb does and I can't really recall him making any mistakes. He's just a bit too perfect for my tastes.

He was shown having lots of age related problems in the first book, more so than Robb, although this is to be expected given Jon was a POV character.

And Robb really only gives us one big age related problem after that, namely the enormous mess he makes with the Westerling-Frey business. Although Jon is indeed a more mature leader than Robb was.

And as Apple Martini said, dude got stabbed by own men.

[Winterz]

Would you care to elaborate? And while you are at it, who is your favorite POV?

He keps messing things up by letting his emotions get the best of him. I mean the latest of it being he wanting the Night's Watch to join the war against the Boltons which is totally messed up. NW can not interfere in southern policies and it would be the end of it if they do. But as Jon has lost most his family to the war he just thinks he can take his thousand crows, which are all that stands between the White Walkers and the Southern realms, and attack the South for personal reasons? Well that's quite selfish of him.

My fav. POVs are Jaime and Arya.

[Chaircat Meow]

It's not just his own actions that always seem to work out for him, it is his circumstances as well.

I highly doubt this event won't turn out to be anything other than beneficial for him in the long run. He's a bit like Danaerys in that regard; every little setback only seems to be a stepping stone to something greater eventually. Except for the whole becoming barren thing.

Unless GRRM actually has the balls to keep him dead. But with a Red Priestess around I find that unlikely.

I bet she isn't barren.

[Dany4eva]

I am a dany fan obviously lol. But I love jon as well. But the constant bashing by dany haters on this site do make you want to hate other characters. I don't care if jon's story is cliche. Its still awesome and amazing to see how it with play out :love:

[My big fat red wedding]

I bet she isn't barren.

Perhaps. I thought her sudden heavy flow in the final chapter in aDwD might have indicated her womb quickening. But I always felt her being barren was a really good motivation for her wanting to be a mother for her dragons and her people, as she'll never have children by natural means.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think readers have various personal reasons for disliking Jon such as he's boring or whiny or whatever. I found him boring as well when I read, but I still liked him.

Jon is a more subtle character than say Dany. Martin has made a habit of introducing a character in one way and then fipping them around as the story goes on. A lot of character flips are very straightfoward - Jaime knocking a boy out a window and then turning towards a path of redemption, Theon being arrogant and then becoming a meek Reek, Dany being a hero type persona and turning villainous.

Then there are the subtle turnabouts that are difficult to see without a re-read- Sansa being a naive and innocent pawn and slowly turning into a player, Stannis being an arrogant power-thirsty asshole kinslayer and then turning into a man about duty, Brienne being an innocent who values knightly ideals above all things and then becoming a killer and a little more grey.

Jon's character operates in this more subtle turnabout. We first see him as this sort of immature, honor bound kid who is motivated by duty and honor above all else and then he slowly flips into a character whose duty and motives become a little unclear. His duty to his vows start to shake a bit and we see him become hardened and matured and putting his hand into realm affairs and it eventually gets him stabbed by his brothers. It's easy to miss the subtly on the first read and think that he's all good and perfect sunshine.

[Chaircat Meow]

Jon's character operates in this more subtle turnabout. We first see him as this sort of immature, honor bound kid who is motivated by duty and honor above all else and then he slowly flips into a character whose duty and motives become a little unclear. His duty to his vows start to shake a bit and we see him become hardened and matured and putting his hand into realm affairs and it eventually gets him stabbed by his brothers. It's easy to miss the subtly on the first read and think that he's all good and perfect sunshine.

I think he's been pretty much all over the place, in terms of his attitude towards his vows, from the beginning.

[Hoopdescoop]

I honestly think that most people who say they dislike Jon Snow are just doing it for shock value or argument's sake. Saying you don't like Jon Snow is like saying you don't like puppies, i.e. you're just a cynical dick

[Dr. Pepper]

I think he's been pretty much all over the place, in terms of his attitude towards his vows, from the beginning.

Not exactly. He took a midnight horse-ride in AGOT when he found out about his family and such, but vows brought him back. He was troubled over what was going on down south, but not enough to desert. It's not until Stannis shows up that Jon starts to deliberately forsake his vows.

[Chaircat Meow]

Not exactly. He took a midnight horse-ride in AGOT when he found out about his family and such, but vows brought him back. He was troubled over what was going on down south, but not enough to desert. It's not until Stannis shows up that Jon starts to deliberately forsake his vows.

I don't want to de-rail the thread.

IIRC Jon gets dragged back, basically under duress, Mormont lets him know he's onto him (making future flight a bit silly) and tries to impress on him how important the NW is and promises to take him ranging. I'm sure he does take the vow seriously though, he was just confused as to how important he thought it was.

And doesn't he think of running away with Ygritte if possible while they are on their way to Castle Black? Desertion for love (if you want to call it that). I realize he doesn't do it, although the circumstances wouldn't have permitted it, but in terms of his possible motivations it's an important point.

IIRC he refuses WF, in no small part, because of religious issues, not loyalty to the NW.

Agree about Jon getting the NW more involved than he ought because of Stannis.

Although here Jon has the opportunity to aid a king he supports while remaining at his post. I'm not sure his reactions would have been too different if these circumstances had cropped up earlier.

But, we still don't know the full story about Jon's motivations around the march on WF, so it seems to me a bit early to say that was him forsaking his vows, even though he thinks this.

Anyway, sorry for digressing.

[Jamie Lannister]

For all his blacks, he's just too white for a story that (rightly) prides itself on greyness.

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't want to de-rail the thread.

IIRC Jon gets dragged back, basically under duress, Mormont lets him know he's onto him (making future flight a bit silly) and tries to impress on him how important the NW is and promises to take him ranging. I'm sure he does take the vow seriously though, he was just confused as to how important he thought it was.

No, he goes back with his brothers on his own. No dragging involved. It was the reminder of his vows that brought him back. Mormont stated that he knew Jon would try to run but also knew that he would come back. He wasn't confused about the vows. He was confused and troubled about his family. His troubled thoughts were so expected that Mormont and Aemon knew and understood.

And doesn't he think of running away with Ygritte if possible while they are on their way to Castle Black? Desertion for love (if you want to call it that). I realize he doesn't do it, but in terms of his possible motivations it's an important point.

Yep, he thinks about it and this is the first area we see Jon's character really start to falter. Though it was only a thought and not something he actually did.

IIRC he refuses WF, in no small part, because of religious issues, not loyalty to the NW.

Yup, and that's what I said above. We really see his character turnabout when Stannis shows up.

Agree about Jon getting the NW more involved that he ought because of Stannis.

Although here Jon has the opportunity to aid a king he supports while remaining at his post. I'm not sure his reactions would have been too different if these circumstances had cropped up earlier.

Yes, Jon has the opportunity to aid the king he supports, but the point is that he ought not be choosing a king to support nor aiding any king. The kings are supposed to support the NW, not the other way around. His reactions were clearly different when this type of circumstance cropped up earlier. He didn't go to his brother or send someone out seeking his sisters. He was also not the Lord Commander before Stannis showed up so this point is pretty moot.

But, we still don't know the full story about Jon's motivations around the march on WF, so it seems to me a bit early to say that was him forsaking his vows, even though he thinks this.

Anyway, sorry for digressing.

Yes, there are a couple of hours of missing time, but at this point we are left with what we know. And we know that Jon gave refuge to Stannis and his men, we know that Jon aided Stannis with the war effort, we know that Jon sent Mance (a known deserter) to find his sister and bring her to Castle Black, we know that Jon got involved and circumvented the Karstark plot and then informed Stannis about it, and we know that Jon told his men that he was going to head South to meet the Boltons. Whether or not that plan to meet the Boltons is true, it doesn't take away from all of the previous instances when he forsook his vows. Jon knows he was doing this when he was doing this. It's all the evidence needed to show that his ADWD character is not the same as his AGOT character. He isn't going around nailing people to posts or killing brothers with shadowbabies or knocking boys out a window, but he's just as grey and flipped as any other character (save Davos, but because Davos readily admits to being grey).

[Chaircat Meow]

No, he goes back with his brothers on his own. No dragging involved. It was the reminder of his vows that brought him back. Mormont stated that he knew Jon would try to run but also knew that he would come back. He wasn't confused about the vows. He was confused and troubled about his family. His troubled thoughts were so expected that Mormont and Aemon knew and understood.

I'm not doubting you. All I can say is that my recollection of GoT is pretty different. I said duress because Sam, Grenn and all say you are coming back with us no matter what and so Jon has to go back, or fight his way out. He thinks he can flee again after this. In the conversation with Mormont Jon denies honour brought him back and Mormont confirmed it was the honour of his friends, not his own. In other words he fully intended to desert (and up until his chat with Mormont still did). Anyway, that's what I remember.

No argument about the Karstark business or Mance. Didn't have much choice but to shelter Stannis though.

I'd prefer to quote the book obviously, but I don't have it with me. Here is the relevant chapter summary from Leigh Butler Tor. com.

What Happens

Samwell finds Jon in the stables and pleads with him not to go, but Jon charges his horse at him and forces Sam to fling himself aside. He hopes he didn’t hurt Sam, and that Sam has enough loyalty to refrain from rousing Castle Black immediately. Jon regrets abandoning the sword Mormont had given him, but thinks he was not “so lost to honor” as to take it with him, though he is still not sure whether going south is the honorable thing or not regardless of what Aemon Targaryen said. He wants to go to Winterfell, but is sure he will not be welcome there, and hopes merely that Robb will let him help avenge his father, and die as a Stark.

Ghost falls behind as Jon reaches Mole Town, and Jon notes that even the whorehouse is mostly underground there to protect against the cold.

On the Wall, he’d heard men call the whores “buried treasures.” He wondered whether any of his brothers in black were down there tonight, mining. That was oathbreaking too, yet no one seemed to care.

Beyond the village, Jon hears hoofbeats in pursuit of him and hides in the trees. He soon recognizes the voices of the horsemen as his fellow classmates, including Pyp, Grenn, Toad, and Haider, and realizes Sam must have gone to them instead of Mormont. Ghost’s reappearance betrays Jon’s location to the other boys, to Jon’s disgust. Jon warns them to back off, but they insist that they will not allow him to betray his brothers, and hem him in while quoting the words of the oath, and eventually Jon admits he will not cut any of them down and agrees to return to the castle, promising himself he will escape again later.

Jon goes to attend Mormont as usual the next morning, to discover that Mormont knows all about his attempt to desert, and would have had others retrieve him if his friends had not done so. Jon gathers his strength and tells Mormont he is prepared to face the penalty for desertion, which is death, but Mormont replies that if they beheaded every boy who rode to Mole Town in the night, “only ghosts” would man the Wall.

Mormont tells Jon he cannot bring his father back by deserting, and his addition of a lone sword to Robb’s forces will achieve nothing. He also points out that his own sister Maege and her daughters will likely be fighting as well, and yet if she were killed he would not leave, for his place is here, as is Jon’s. He tells Jon of all the signs of something big brewing beyond the Wall, and asks if Jon really thinks his brother’s war is more important than theirs.

“It’s not,” Mormont told him. “Gods save us, boy, you’re not blind and you’re not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?”

Mormont says he believes Jon and his direwolf are meant to be here, and wants them to go with him when the Watch goes beyond the Wall, in force, to search for Benjen Stark and find him, dead or alive. He asks again if Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, or “only a bastard boy who wants to play at war.”

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath.

Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran . . . forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place.

“I am . . . yours, my lord. Your man. I swear it. I will not run again.”

The Old Bear snorted. “Good. Now go put on your sword.”

http://www.tor.com/b...thrones-part-33

Jon makes the decision during the conversation with the old bear, knowing that future escape will be futile. He's persuaded to of course, thinking Mormont has the right of it. And Mormont actually isn't standing on vows here, which I find interesting but emphasizing how Jon can't help Robb but can be involved in a more important fight in the north. If this persuades Jon that's actually a bit less unlike the reasoning he will be employing later on.

Mormont gives Jon three reasons why he should stay. 1) You can't help Robb anyway. 2) Vows, when he mentions his sister 3) This fight is more important.

I don't think its clear what exactly persuades Jon, but presumably all together. And he wasn't persuaded by a mere recitation of the vow at all. He now also knows he can't get away whereas he thought he could before, although we don't see that enter his thought process. So the attempted desertion doesn't provide a clear counterpoint to his later behaviour at all.

[Ewan]

I have nothing against his character.

[Elder Sister]

I honestly think that most people who say they dislike Jon Snow are just doing it for shock value or argument's sake. Saying you don't like Jon Snow is like saying you don't like puppies, i.e. you're just a cynical dick

I may be a cynical dick-ette but Jon Snow is a total wiener head with the people skills of an earthworm; otherwise, he would not have gotten knifed by half of the Night's Watch.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I honestly think that most people who say they dislike Jon Snow are just doing it for shock value or argument's sake. Saying you don't like Jon Snow is like saying you don't like puppies, i.e. you're just a cynical dick

:bowdown:

Someone had to say it.

I may be a cynical dick-ette but Jon Snow is a total wiener head with the people skills of an earthworm; otherwise, he would not have gotten knifed by half of the Night's Watch.

And he couldn't have gotten knifed at least partly because Bowen Marsh is a complete dipshit?

[David Selig]

I'm not doubting you. All I can say is that my recollection of GoT is pretty different. I said duress because Sam, Grenn and all say you are coming back with us no matter what and so Jon has to go back, or fight his way out. He thinks he can flee again after this. In the conversation with Mormont Jon denies honour brought him back and Mormont confirmed it was the honour of his friends, not his own. In other words he fully intended to desert (and up until his chat with Mormont still did). Anyway, that's what I remember.

You remember correctly.

I honestly think that most people who say they dislike Jon Snow are just doing it for shock value or argument's sake. Saying you don't like Jon Snow is like saying you don't like puppies, i.e. you're just a cynical dick

Now that you mention it, I don't like puppies.

I adore kittens though, they are way cuter.

[E-Ro]

I have not noticed any Jon hate untill this thread, I like him he can be boring sometimes but thats really it.

[Winter's Knight]

I honestly think that most people who say they dislike Jon Snow are just doing it for shock value or argument's sake. Saying you don't like Jon Snow is like saying you don't like puppies, i.e. you're just a cynical dick

Let me paraphrase Elizabeth Bennet: Do not consider me now as an irritating hipster, intending to plague you, but as a rational creature, speaking the truth from her heart when I say, I do not like Jon Snow.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike puppies-they piss everywhere, chew up stuff and get in your way.