How do you think Robert Arryn will die?

[janedl]

This is a great theory! Even Tyrion (if he saw her) might not be sure after all this time whether it was real or fake Tysha.

I think Sansa will save Sweetrobin (irritating as he is). And I think that, one way or another, she will be Littlefinger's downfall.

[Kittykatknits]

I mentioned this, she is brought up in the novels in the Vale for the first time (thematic linking perhaps?). The meeting is in the Westerlands.

I don't think so either. But Tysha being mentioned so frequently in ADWD means we're not supposed to forget her. Likewise is Tyrion's marriage to Sansa brought up a couple of times in ADWD as a "gentle reminder" to the readers. The marriage between Tyrion and Sansa is also brought up a lot in Sansa's chapters in late ASOS early ADWD.

Late feast, right? Yeah, I completely agree with you. These are all plot points that are coming together somehow. If your theory is correct, then it is possible that Sansa and Tyrion never cross paths again.

[Lyanna Stark]

Late feast, right? Yeah, I completely agree with you. These are all plot points that are coming together somehow. If your theory is correct, then it is possible that Sansa and Tyrion never cross paths again.

Lysa brings up Sansa's marriage to him as early as late ASOS and it is commented on how it was not consummated. Then later on Sansa thinks that Sweetrobin would make a dreadful husband, that he is so bad with his shaking fits that she'd rather be married to Tyrion or Joffrey (another reminder). The in AFFC, we first get Myranda talking of marriage beds (insert Tyrion and Sandor like Woah) and we get the marriage contract for HtH where it is brought up once more.

Tyrion goes on and on in ADWD about where whores go, how Tysha was the only one who loved him, how he misses his wife, and then to Penny he uses Sansa as a shield so he doesn't have to do anything romantic with a non attractive girl. Thematically, it is only growing stronger, not weaker, as a plot point.

[femfatalatron]

Tysha theory = WIN.

Being an annoying little brat at 8 is not a reason for a kid to deserve to die, obviously.

What's worrisome about sweetrobin is his sadistic streak -- wanting to watch guys fight to the death, wanting to "make him fly" every chance he gets. It's really unnerving. Unless his personality changes significantly (and when does it become too late to learn empathy?) he's shaping up to be a mini-Joffrey.

So here's the thing. Maybe he doesn't deserve to die. But the people of the Vale don't deserve to be ruled by him. Is there any plausible way for everyone here to get what they deserve?

I wonder if Sansa could pull off making Sweetrobin go missing-and-presumed-dead. Foiling LF's plans is a dangerous game, even for a girl who's starting to become a good player. Putting him into hiding to save his life at the cost of his inheritance seems like an interesting possibility to me, and what does LF care as long as he can go ahead with his machinations?

[Kittykatknits]

Lysa brings up Sansa's marriage to him as early as late ASOS and it is commented on how it was not consummated. Then later on Sansa thinks that Sweetrobin would make a dreadful husband, that he is so bad with his shaking fits that she'd rather be married to Tyrion or Joffrey (another reminder). The in AFFC, we first get Myranda talking of marriage beds (insert Tyrion and Sandor like Woah) and we get the marriage contract for HtH where it is brought up once more.

Tyrion goes on and on in ADWD about where whores go, how Tysha was the only one who loved him, how he misses his wife, and then to Penny he uses Sansa as a shield so he doesn't have to do anything romantic with a non attractive girl. Thematically, it is only growing stronger, not weaker, as a plot point.

Yes, I agree. I have a feeling the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion will be resolved by the end of WoW. I hope it is not left hanging until the very ending of the series. Clarification though, if it plays out under your scenario, which I think is quite likely, then the two could possibly never see each other again, right? It could be said that Tyrion has unfinished business in the Vale due to the clansmen which might bring about a confrontation though.

[Braavosi Sealady]

Whoah!! Another one who felt a slap in the face. I love the "Tysha" theory and totally see it happen...

Another reason for LF to rush in his plans and maybe making mistakes is the possibilities of Rickon emerging with Davos or Robb's will making Jon his heir being reveled. LF wants Sansa to claim the North based of the fact of fake Arya and that both Bran and Rickon are dead. LF s going into overdrive if Davos finds Rickon and successfully brings him to Winterfell, imo.

Regarding Sweetrobin, if he dies will be due to sweetsleep.

[Lyanna Stark]

Tysha theory = WIN.

Being an annoying little brat at 8 is not a reason for a kid to deserve to die, obviously.

What's worrisome about sweetrobin is his sadistic streak -- wanting to watch guys fight to the death, wanting to "make him fly" every chance he gets. It's really unnerving. Unless his personality changes significantly (and when does it become too late to learn empathy?) he's shaping up to be a mini-Joffrey.

So here's the thing. Maybe he doesn't deserve to die. But the people of the Vale don't deserve to be ruled by him. Is there any plausible way for everyone here to get what they deserve?

I wonder if Sansa could pull off making Sweetrobin go missing-and-presumed-dead. Foiling LF's plans is a dangerous game, even for a girl who's starting to become a good player. Putting him into hiding to save his life at the cost of his inheritance seems like an interesting possibility to me, and what does LF care as long as he can go ahead with his machinations?

I'm glad you like it. :) It does seem like a rather logical plot development when you think about it.

If Sansa runs away with Sweetrobin, she could for instance take him to the QI. Sweetrobin's health is delicate, and he won't last a long journey, plus he will need someone to take care of him. The Elder Brother at the QI is said to have healing hands, and also said to have brought people back from the brink of death before. If anyone could do something for Sweetrobin, it would be him.

To be honest, from a humanitarian point of view, it's far better to prioritise Sweetrobin's health than how the leadership problems in the Vale are going to pan out. Sansa will have to choose: power play, or Sweetrobin's life, I think. The conflict is made more beautiful by way of Sweetrobing being a fairly trying and rather repulsive child. It makes it the simpler choice to just let him die already, especially since he is ill too.

However, regarding what the Vale people "deserve", I imagine that a couple of years in the EB's clutches and little Sweetrobin may emerged as something completely different, should he survive.

By doing this however, Sansa will strip LF of Sweetrobin, making him the regent of nothing much. So that means Bronze Yohn can move in. If she can leave evidence that implicates LF in some sort of crime, even better. Clean hands and all that, someone else will bring him to justice. Or if he escapes Sansa can eventually put his head on a spike at Winterfell. :) (As foreshadowed).

There's also the thematic foreshadowing in ACOK of Sandor being the one to bring Sansa home (Serpentine Steps chapter), which seems to point to a route via the QI for her. The way that makes sense is if she brings Sweetrobin along to get there.

EDIT: I feel like I need to consolidate my Grand Unified Littlefinger, Sansa, Sweetrobin and Tysha theory in one big post. :lol:

[Kittykatknits]

Whoah!! Another one who felt a slap in the face. I love the "Tysha" theory and totally see it happen...

Another reason for LF to rush in his plans and maybe making mistakes is the possibilities of Rickon emerging with Davos or Robb's will making Jon his heir being reveled. LF wants Sansa to claim the North based of the fact of fake Arya and that both Bran and Rickon are dead. LF s going into overdrive if Davos finds Rickon and successfully brings him to Winterfell, imo.

Regarding Sweetrobin, if he dies will be due to sweetsleep.

I don't think that LF has any interest in the North. He told Sansa early on that she would have to make a new home and has never acted without selfish interests so far. His plan to marry her to HtH in order to reclaim WF isn't very sound either as there is no way a Vale army would march North in the middle of winter. We can see what is happening to Stannis in his men in Dance.

It's posible though that if Sansa learns of the existence of either the will or her brother's that this might stir her to action.

[Dr. Pepper]

What's worrisome about sweetrobin is his sadistic streak -- wanting to watch guys fight to the death, wanting to "make him fly" every chance he gets. It's really unnerving. Unless his personality changes significantly (and when does it become too late to learn empathy?) he's shaping up to be a mini-Joffrey.

I'm not so sure Sweetrobin's antics are comparable to Joffrey's. Sweetrobing is portrayed as a severely developmentally delayed child due to parenting. I'm not sure if at that point he understood that people can't actually fly and that going out the moon door means death nor am I sure that he fully understood the implications of it. I see him almost on par with a toddler, and toddlers can seem very cruel as they are just starting to learn the more dark side of human nature. Jon and Lysa really made for poor parents.

[The Other Others]

Well the Tysha Tyrion theory has been staring everyone in the face(including me) and knowing GRRM,its the type of thing he would do especially with the constant reminders about tysha.

[ServantOnIce]

Littlefinger is gaining the realm one region at the time . .

7 kingdoms and the Riverlands . .

Littlefinger has the Vale of Arryn, The Riverlands and the North since Sansa is the only Stark Heir. He has 3 of the 8 regions . . . now if he can marry Queen Cersei or Arianne Martell . . . . folks better look out, Littlefinger is getting stronger and stronger . .

[FanTasy]

I'm not so sure Sweetrobin's antics are comparable to Joffrey's. Sweetrobing is portrayed as a severely developmentally delayed child due to parenting. I'm not sure if at that point he understood that people can't actually fly and that going out the moon door means death nor am I sure that he fully understood the implications of it. I see him almost on par with a toddler, and toddlers can seem very cruel as they are just starting to learn the more dark side of human nature. Jon and Lysa really made for poor parents.

I seem to recall Jon was very worried and tried to get Sweetrobin away from Lysa. This probably made her kill him.

[Lyanna Stark]

I seem to recall Jon was very worried and tried to get Sweetrobin away from Lysa. This probably made her kill him.

No, Lysa killed Jon Arryn because LF told her they'd send Sweetrobin off to foster with Tywin Lannister (King Bob apparently thought so too, but we can only wonder who planted that idea in his head...Lysa thinks Cersei, but would Cersei care about Robert Arryn? Hardly. ) Jon Arryn wanted to send Robert to be fostered with Stannis, not Tywin.

EDIT: To throw another curve ball regarding Sweetrobin, GRRM has neither confirmed nor denied that Sweetrobin is really Jon Arryn's son, he just said something vague about DNA not being invented or some such. Sweetrobin is very small for a boy, even considering his disease perhaps, and Jon Arryn is said to have been a man of rather large stature.

Then there are the vague hints Lysa gives of having an affair with LF before, since at the time of their marriage, she says she is tired of being silent and means to scream. Tired of being silent when? She last shagged LF ages and ages ago, so she can hardly have suffered from that during the 15 or so years since then. But if they had an on/off affair, that comment makes far more sense.

[The Other Others]

We also know that LG claimed Lysas maidenhead in the same year the she married Jon Arryn which raises the highly interesting and very possible option that sweetrobin is Lysas son by LF,not Jon

(Not even more hidden parents!This series has way too many already) sorry if anyone has already posted something like this

[Pod The Impaler]

I think Sweetrobin is going to die, and as soon as "Alayne" gets hitched. I think LF plans to drastically short the lifespans of both Robin and HTH.

With Robin, I think the most likely thing is poisoning that seems like illness. I have a persistent feeling that the maester leeching Robin so thoroughly is in on it, perhaps doing so to keep him weak and sickly. Even without that, LF is clearly not averse to using poison (Tears of Lys, "black amethysts").

Another possibility is that Littfinger will use the Vale's mountain clans to assassinate Robin, HtH, and perhaps others. After all, he was in King's Landing when Tyrion's mountain goons were present (some of which he no doubt entertained at his brothels). After the battle of Blackwater, Littlefinger was back in town and the clans were pretty much paid to go home - who do you think paid them ? With Tyrion son of Tywin out of the picture, who better than Littlefinger to secure their loyalty and reward them right inside the Vale ?

Needless to say, Sweetrobin, HtH, and some of their highborn protectors might "unexpectedly" be ambushed by clansmen and killed. And even if that outrages people, let's say in King's Landing, who else would they blame but the "Twisted Monkey Demon" ? (Who also happens to be Sansa's husband.)

The real question here is what will Sansa do if she realizes this? Join LF and truly enter "the game" ? Try to save Sweetrobin or avenge him after the fact ?

Theory on Littlefinger and Tysha

Since LF was banking on Tyrion dying, but Tyrion hasn't died, so LF will need a shortcut to get Sansa's marriage annulled.

Now, we know that LF knows that Tyrion has been married before, and we also know that LF knows a surprising amount of details, since he tells Sansa some of them (he keeps the gangrape quiet, but it's obvious what he is hinting at for the reader).

Now, we have LF using imposters already lampshaded by him bringing out a fake Arya. If he cannot bribe the High Septon (unlikely) then he needs another way to remove Sansa's marriage. So why doesn't he simply trot out Tyrion's first wife, who then swears that the evil, evil sinful Lannisters didn't annul the marriage, but just sent her on her way. The High Septon already has a very negative view of the Lannisters through our dear Cersei, so he would surely be prone to believing anything bad about them. Tyrion being a kinslaying, kingslaying dwarf probably doesn't help his cause either.

Hence, all LF needs to do is bring out "Tysha". Hell, make it even worse: where do whores go? Well, to LF brothels. Maybe LF knew where the real Tysha was all the time? I don't think he needs to, but it would provide a neat answer to Tyrion's question. ;)

Personally I tend to believe it will be fake Tysha due to the fake Arya lampshading. Sansa's plot armour needs to be removed if the threat from LF and Harry the Heir is to become real. This will also be the clincher that will seal Sweetrobin's fate, since without Sansa being free to marry, LF needs Sweetrobin alive.

It resolves a lot of plot threads and makes Sansa's situation more perilous, forcing her into action.

EDIT: Oh an interesting tidbit. Remember when Tysha was first brought up in the novels? Location, location, location: it was in the Vale. ;)

Seven hells ! :stunned:

[Kittykatknits]

I'm not so sure Sweetrobin's antics are comparable to Joffrey's. Sweetrobing is portrayed as a severely developmentally delayed child due to parenting. I'm not sure if at that point he understood that people can't actually fly and that going out the moon door means death nor am I sure that he fully understood the implications of it. I see him almost on par with a toddler, and toddlers can seem very cruel as they are just starting to learn the more dark side of human nature. Jon and Lysa really made for poor parents.

I think this is very accurate. My daughter is three and he reminds me of her in SOME ways. He doesn't seem to understand the implications of his actions and like a toddler, he lacks empathy. That is very different from being sadistic. Empathy is a skill that is taught and takes several years to completely develop in a child.

[The Mother of The Others]

So this crowd wants Petyr taken down by scandal before we ever get to see his endgame revealed? ...Okay.

Hell, make it even worse: where do whores go? Well, to LF brothels. Maybe LF knew where the real Tysha was all the time? I don't think he needs to, but it would provide a neat answer to Tyrion's question. ;)

That's golden. Tysha would be real long in the tooth by now, since the life expectancy for brothel workers would be quite low to begin with, and it's been a generation almost since Tyr's seen her. (It'd be a case of 'you can never go home again' to the way things were.... unless Tyr somehow could because he's in lousy condition too.) I'm torn on whether it'd be best to have fake Tysh or real Tysh. Suddenly finding the real one would be really improbable, you know? Like a holy grail pulled out of Pete's ass. Unless he found and kept her YEARS AGO in preparation for gaining leverage over Tyrion!!!

Also, another faker pretending to be someone else would also seem like too much fakery at this point. I can definitely see Tysha rumors alone forcing Tyrion to show up in person and set the record straight or at least confirm it's not the real one. She's Tyr's achilles heal like Sansa is LF's. Now I'm picturing a public showdown in KL's court between Tyrion and LF as Aegon sits the throne and listens intently to find out whether he's clear to marry Sansa or not. Tyrion would drop the line, "Now I know where whores go---to the iron throne!" (Meaning LF, 'Tysha', and Sansa who are all up to something at his expense.)

If this happens and Tyrion finds out, this changes his motivations too, because the whole time in ADWD he has constantly mentioned Tysha. If he hears she is alive and is somewhere and with LF, it would change things for him and where he goes, and what he does. I think.

Yep. Bad news for Penny. :crying:

I'm not so sure Sweetrobin's antics are comparable to Joffrey's. Sweetrobing is portrayed as severely developmentally delayed

He's portrayed as a bad omen for the vale all around. mental and physical. he needed that 5 year fast forward gap during which he could have had a growth spurt to not be Steve Urkle with a scepter anymore. Now, he's got no time to turn things around. THe vale needs to dodge him somehow or else they'll watch their stock plummet. I don't know how to save him in a convincing manner that works out well for everyone, honestly. Their society doesn't have the safety net for SweetRobins that we do. Unless Sansa creates it, there's no scaffolding in place for someone like that to ever lead effectively.

[FanTasy]

We also know that LG claimed Lysas maidenhead in the same year the she married Jon Arryn which raises the highly interesting and very possible option that sweetrobin is Lysas son by LF,not Jon

(Not even more hidden parents!This series has way too many already) sorry if anyone has already posted something like this

I think this has been covered by the Tansy-story.

[ServantOnIce]

There is an argument for the Sailor's Wife prostitute in Braavos being Tysha because she has to have a wedding ceremony before she beds a man but remember the soothsaying woman said that the Sailor's wife love is dead, and will never return to her only as a corpse. Does it mean Tyrion is going to see Tysha when he dies or that she is not Tysha.

I could see LIttle Weasel having the real Tysha locked up in a brothel somewhere . . . good point.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think this has been covered by the Tansy-story.

The Tansy story? Oh Hoster aborted the first child, but if Lysa and LF had an on/off relationship after she was married to Jon Arryn, then what?

Besides, if Lysa gave birth to Sweetrobin back then, he would be 15 years old. And he is not.

Also, another faker pretending to be someone else would also seem like too much fakery at this point. I can definitely see Tysha rumors alone forcing Tyrion to show up in person and set the record straight or at least confirm it's not the real one. She's Tyr's achilles heal like Sansa is LF's. Now I'm picturing a public showdown in KL's court between Tyrion and LF as Aegon sits the throne and listens intently to find out whether he's clear to marry Sansa or not. Tyrion would drop the line, "Now I know where whores go---to the iron throne!" (Meaning LF, 'Tysha', and Sansa who are all up to something at his expense.)

Aegon won't want to marry Sansa, he wants to marry Dany.

Failing that, he will take Arianne for the troops Dorne can offer. Sansa can offer him nothing, so there is no reason for him to pick her. She has no claim to the Vale, the Lannisters hold Riverrun and failing that, there is Edmure + baby Roslin. Rickin and Bran go before her for Winterfell, and Stannis would never cede Winterfell to her as long as she is married to Tyrion. There's also Robb disinheriting her to consider.

So currently, Sansa's claim to anything is zero. Aegon's interest in her will be likewise.